Craps table bounce characteristics on Norwegian ships

[Dicenator]

I've been on 5 different Carnival ships; Valor, Liberty, Glory, Legend and the Victory. The craps tables on all 5 of these ships are nearly identical

 

In the past year I've been on 3 Norwegian ships; Jewel, Gem and the Star.

 

Jewel - extremely bouncy table

Gem - one of the best tables I've ever played anywhere

Star - extremely bouncy table

 

I will not rebook a ship that has an extremely bouncy craps table.

 

Can anyone on this message board who can evaluate the bounciness of craps tables tell me what other Norwegian ships have good tables other than the Gem.

 

Thank you,

 

Dicenator

[katefdh]

The fun on casino is poker game ..!! its really interesting gambling people love to do gambling's ...:P

[Casino Player]

The fun on casino is poker game ..!! its really interesting gambling people love to do gambling's ...:P

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO katefdh: I guess you have never been at a craps table and participated in the fun when you get a talented shooter who hit one number after another. Remember, craps is the only game in the casino where actual true odds are paid on certain bets.

[jsmeeker]

Nothing beats a hot shooter. Wether it's just pure luck or they are actually being successful in dice control, it's the most exciting table to be at in the casino.

[Thom524]

Dice control?

[Dicenator]

Absolutely. All my practicing and playing is done on neutral bounce tables. When I run across an extremely bouncy table I can't adjust my throwing very quickly. In Atlantic City where I do most of my craps playing about half of the casinos have neutral bounce felt covered tables. The other half have real bouncy to extremely bouncy such as the Borgata. I have a chance to make money on neutral bounce tables but very little chance on the bouncy tables.

 

 

Dicenator

[Grandpaul]

I bet Don't on bouncy tables. Works pretty good.

[mikel24m]

Absolutely. All my practicing and playing is done on neutral bounce tables. When I run across an extremely bouncy table I can't adjust my throwing very quickly. In Atlantic City where I do most of my craps playing about half of the casinos have neutral bounce felt covered tables. The other half have real bouncy to extremely bouncy such as the Borgata. I have a chance to make money on neutral bounce tables but very little chance on the bouncy tables.

 

 

Dicenator

 

Just curious do you practice the bounce or do you roll a certain way

 

I am really good at rolling yo's

 

one of my cruises I hit 5 in a row

 

I throw the dice really high and spin them

[Dicenator]

I set the dice a specific way, 3V, Hardway, X6 etc. I then throw them the same way trying to land them in the same 3" square located anywhere from 18" to 27" from the wall depending on the bounce characteristic of the table. I also use an Underhand throw which is kept low no more than 5" above the table surface.

 

 

Dicenator

[mikel24m]

I set the dice a specific way, 3V, Hardway, X6 etc. I then throw them the same way trying to land them in the same 3" square located anywhere from 18" to 27" from the wall depending on the bounce characteristic of the table. I also use an Underhand throw which is kept low no more than 5" above the table surface.

 

 

Dicenator

 

I set the dice as well and find with a nice spin they land the same way I threw them

 

sort of hard to explain what I mean

[kvetsh]

Absolutely. All my practicing and playing is done on neutral bounce tables. When I run across an extremely bouncy table I can't adjust my throwing very quickly. In Atlantic City where I do most of my craps playing about half of the casinos have neutral bounce felt covered tables. The other half have real bouncy to extremely bouncy such as the Borgata. I have a chance to make money on neutral bounce tables but very little chance on the bouncy tables.

 

Dicenator

 

Dicenator,

 

I was in Atlantic City recently and shot craps twice: at the Borgata, and the new Revel casino. I lost at the Borgata and won it all back at the Revel, so I think you are right about neutral bounce tables.

 

I'm booked on the Norwegian Epic in May, so I'm hopeful that the NCL Epic has neutral bounce tables.

[Dicenator]

Unfortunately the Epic has bouncy tables or table. I haven't been on this ship but I'm on a craps message board and inquired about the Norwegian ships and got this response from someone who cruised on the Epic.

 

2 out of the last 3 Norwegian ships that I've been on have had extremely bouncy tables. The only one with a good table was the Gem and I've booked it again for March, 2013 and I'm hoping that they haven't played with this table.

 

I would suggest that if you run across a extremely bouncy table that you make sure that a lot of your throws bounce off the table. Don't retrieve them yourself. This causes the game to slow down and the casinos make money on the number of throws per hour. If this number decreases maybe they will wise up and create neutral bounce tables. They already have a major house advantage on most of the bets on the layout.

 

 

Dicenator

[OldSeaDog1969]

Bouncy tables affect the outcome of Dice rolls? You will be telling me next that you can control the Dice.

[Dicenator]

Nobody can control the outcome of a dice throw and I have never made such a claim. All I try to do is minimize how often a 7 appears during the point cycle throwing in a hand. I have 5 years of recorded data which shows that I throw a 7 out less than the 1 in 6 throws that a random thrower will average long term.

 

And yes a bouncy table is much harder to do this on than a neutral bounce table and that is why I choose to play on neutral bounce tables if at all possible.

 

You are entitled to your own beliefs as is everyone. I think that I've presented enough evidence of what I just said in all the trip reports that I've put on this board.

 

Please keep your sarcasm to yourself in the future.

 

Dicenator

[kvetsh]

Unfortunately the Epic has bouncy tables or table. I haven't been on this ship but I'm on a craps message board and inquired about the Norwegian ships and got this response from someone who cruised on the Epic.

 

2 out of the last 3 Norwegian ships that I've been on have had extremely bouncy tables. The only one with a good table was the Gem and I've booked it again for March, 2013 and I'm hoping that they haven't played with this table.

 

I would suggest that if you run across a extremely bouncy table that you make sure that a lot of your throws bounce off the table. Don't retrieve them yourself. This causes the game to slow down and the casinos make money on the number of throws per hour. If this number decreases maybe they will wise up and create neutral bounce tables. They already have a major house advantage on most of the bets on the layout.

 

 

Dicenator

 

I'll definitely have to try this... and make sure to play the Don't Pass line!

[OldSeaDog1969]

Nobody can control the outcome of a dice throw and I have never made such a claim. All I try to do is minimize how often a 7 appears during the point cycle throwing in a hand. I have 5 years of recorded data which shows that I throw a 7 out less than the 1 in 6 throws that a random thrower will average long term.

 

And yes a bouncy table is much harder to do this on than a neutral bounce table and that is why I choose to play on neutral bounce tables if at all possible.

 

You are entitled to your own beliefs as is everyone. I think that I've presented enough evidence of what I just said in all the trip reports that I've put on this board.

 

Please keep your sarcasm to yourself in the future.

 

Dicenator

 

@Dicenator........you state you make no claim to dice control then proceed to explain how you minimize rolling 7 outs.

 

Like you said I am entitled to my beliefs & many would say that my 24 years in the Casino management business outweighs a 5 record of your throwing Craps. Send the data to any maths acedemic & lets see if they agree with.

 

My comment was not meant to provoke but to educate players in the complete nonsense of superstition. Believe what you like but maths, chaos theory, randomization all tear apart your practice of "setting dice".

[Casino Player]

@Dicenator........you state you make no claim to dice control then proceed to explain how you minimize rolling 7 outs.

 

Like you said I am entitled to my beliefs & many would say that my 24 years in the Casino management business outweighs a 5 record of your throwing Craps. Send the data to any maths acedemic & lets see if they agree with.

 

My comment was not meant to provoke but to educate players in the complete nonsense of superstition. Believe what you like but maths, chaos theory, randomization all tear apart your practice of "setting dice".

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO OldSeaDog1969: If setting the dice isn't what gets a good roll, then, how come many people in the Casino business dislike it when someone comes to the table and sets the dice? It doesn't take any longer to set the dice than the random thrower. A study of this was done. Second, if it makes a person feel good to roll the dice and not have a seven showing on any of the sides of the dice, what is the harm of a player setting the dice so that no sevens show on any side of the dice?

[Dicenator]

Old Sea Dog,

 

When someone says dice control to me it means the ability to throw a specific number at will which I can't do nor have I seen anybody with the ability to do this. Can certain players including myself minimize the frequency of the seven out? YES. I would use the term Dice influencing not control. It doesn't take too much influence to beat the house advantage on pass line with odds and place bets on the 6 and 8. Suppose that instead of the random 7 out in 1 in 6 throws, a player's ratio was 1 in 7. With your casino experience you can calculate what his advantage would be.

 

I would guess based on my experience that 99% of all craps players are random rollers or chicken feeders or fleas or whatever term you want to use and they don't believe that dice influencing is a reality.

 

Now if you had said that you were a pit boss or sat box at craps for years you might have more credibility but Casino Management could mean that you were a bean counter sitting at a desk 8 hours a day.

 

If dice control or influencing wasn't real why are most of the casinos in Las Vegas scarred of it. Why do they give heat when you don't hit the wall with both dice? Why do most of the casinos in Aruba ban dice setting?

 

Again you are entitled to your opinion as am I, but my opinion is grounded in facts which I do not intend to submit to any mathematician to verify. I am a retired engineer and am very well versed in probablility and statistics since I used these for over 40 years during my career.

 

 

Dicenator

[OldSeaDog1969]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO OldSeaDog1969: If setting the dice isn't what gets a good roll, then, how come many people in the Casino business dislike it when someone comes to the table and sets the dice? It doesn't take any longer to set the dice than the random thrower. A study of this was done. Second, if it makes a person feel good to roll the dice and not have a seven showing on any of the sides of the dice, what is the harm of a player setting the dice so that no sevens show on any side of the dice?

 

The reason most Casinos do not allow setting of the Dice:

It does slow the game down in most cases. Some players can take up to 30-45 seconds simply to find the numbers they want on the Dice. Casinos have every right to run the games at the speed that accomodates the action but also to the satisfaction of other players. This can usually be circumvented by the stickman sending the Dice out on the number preffered by the player. It's called a house rule & can vary from Casino to Casino.

[OldSeaDog1969]

Old Sea Dog,

 

When someone says dice control to me it means the ability to throw a specific number at will which I can't do nor have I seen anybody with the ability to do this. Can certain players including myself minimize the frequency of the seven out? YES. I would use the term Dice influencing not control. It doesn't take too much influence to beat the house advantage on pass line with odds and place bets on the 6 and 8. Suppose that instead of the random 7 out in 1 in 6 throws, a player's ratio was 1 in 7. With your casino experience you can calculate what his advantage would be.

 

I would guess based on my experience that 99% of all craps players are random rollers or chicken feeders or fleas or whatever term you want to use and they don't believe that dice influencing is a reality.

 

Now if you had said that you were a pit boss or sat box at craps for years you might have more credibility but Casino Management could mean that you were a bean counter sitting at a desk 8 hours a day.

 

If dice control or influencing wasn't real why are most of the casinos in Las Vegas scarred of it. Why do they give heat when you don't hit the wall with both dice? Why do most of the casinos in Aruba ban dice setting?

 

Again you are entitled to your opinion as am I, but my opinion is grounded in facts which I do not intend to submit to any mathematician to verify. I am a retired engineer and am very well versed in probablility and statistics since I used these for over 40 years during my career.

 

 

Dicenator

 

If you say that you can actually minimize the throwing of a seven then you are defying mathmatics & are indeed a magician. However this has never ever to proven in any case study. If you are so sure of your study why not submit for review. If you do indeed possess special powers then I am sure that by now you are a multi millionaire.

 

You are right 99% of people that shoot Craps do not believe you can influence the Dice because it is complete nonsense. The 1% are the superstitious players who no matter what facts & statistics you present them with still will not change their mind.

 

My experience for your satisfaction is as a Dealer, Boxman, Pit Boss, Floor Manager & Casino Manager over a span of 24 years.

 

Casinos are not scared of setting Dice. However slowing the game to a halt is not in any Casinos interest. Setting the Dice & Dice sliding however are to different animals. Casinos will protect themselves from cheats. Not hitting the back wall is a prerequisite for the randomization of the outcome of the Dice. This is also why the ends of the Dice table have rubber contouring. Not hitting the back wall is also linked to Dice sliding.

 

Don't get me started on Aruba. They make rules up as they go along. That however is another discussion topic. However the setting of the Dice as previously mentioned is more to do with the speed of the game.

 

I have enjoyed this discussion on the forum & that is what it is. A discussion. Believe me in my time I have seen many superstitious players & Casino employees [at all levels] but the purpose of my input is to educate players as to the complete nonsense of superstition. Lets face it they build those beautiful billion dollar Casinos in Vegas not on superstition but pure mathmatics & the house edge.

[Dicenator]

Old Sea Dog,

 

This is not the proper forum for this kind of discussion. If you really want to get into discussing Dice Control then you should join one of the craps message boards. The one that I would recommend is the Dice Institute. You can find them at www.diceinstitute/maxforum.org.

 

Dicenator

[Dicenator]

Old Sea Dog,

 

This is not the proper forum for this type of discussion. Some of the Craps message boards would be much more appropriate. I would suggest that you sign up on the Dice Institute message board. You can get there at

www.diceinstitute/maxforum.org.

 

 

Dicenator

[OldSeaDog1969]

Old Sea Dog,

 

This is not the proper forum for this type of discussion. Some of the Craps message boards would be much more appropriate. I would suggest that you sign up on the Dice Institute message board. You can get there at

www.diceinstitute/maxforum.org.

 

 

Dicenator

 

Listen to youself. Not the forum to discuss.

 

So let me get this straight. This is a Casino forum, with a discussion thread on how bouncy craps tables affect the outcome dice rolls & with you posting a comment that YOU can control the outcome of the dice by the way you set/throw them.

 

However, people who can clearly show that you are talking nonsense should go to other forums. LOL!

 

FACT: Bouncy tables do not affect the outcome of dice rolls.

FACT: Players who set or throw the dice & a certain way cannot influence the outcome of the dice [except sliding which is cheating]

FACT: My 24 years of experience in Casinos dwarfs your 5 year collection of "data" which you refuse to divulge for fear of being found out.

 

But as my old history teacher used to say "you can't educate people who do not want to be educated".

 

As for the link you wanted to share with me, I have one for you: www.dicenatortalkscompletenonsense.com

[Dicenator]

Old Sea Dog,

 

At first you came at me with sarcasm. In your final posting you are insulting and mocking and demeaning. You say that what I believe is superstition, which is your opinion only. My opinion is contrary to yours so therefore you have the right to be mocking?

 

You make a lot of statements of fact which you do not present any proof of but you mock me for having a contrary opinion.

 

This message board is about cruise casinos of which craps is only one game of many. I have not seen any discussions anywhere concerning Dice Influencing on this board and I would think 99% of the members have never given it a second thought. That is why I suggested a craps message board where you can get into this topic with many members and you mocked that.

 

I could come back at you with all the mocking and sarcasm that you have given to me but I am a better person than that.

 

Have a happy life.

 

Dicenator

[grod19]

This has been entertaining to read........

 

I can't help but to comment. Craps, like many games is based on statistics and physics. Based on throw speed, landing location, trajectory, table bounce characteristics, back wall characteristics, and hundreds of other variables the outcome of the dice is not random at all. Given the EXACT same conditions the outcome of the role will be the exact same every time. Whether a person is capable of eliminating all of the variables involved is debatable. I can see minimizing the variables of the throw and through practice and muscle memory I can imagine a person can get very good at at it. However I cannot see a person eliminating ALL variables, especially on a moving ship. I think both sides of the argument have already agreed that dice controlling is not possible. As for dice influencing, I think it could be possible, however it should be easily detectable. If a DI (dice influencer) is managing to eliminate a large majority of the variables the dice not only should be landing in the same small region of the table on the throw but they should also be hitting the same spot on the wall and thus bouncing to a rest at the same spot on the table. After a few throws the stick man should notice he is retrieving the dice from the same location on the table.

 

My opinion, I think a skilled thrower could swing the odds slightly compared to a person that just grabs them and shoots them down the table. I am not sure if someone could do this to such a great degree that it makes craps "profittable" over the long run.

 

Keep in mind I used no numbers or statistics in this analysis. Just some theories. Feel free to present supporting or contray opinions