The "Carnivalization" of Holland America.....

[dadecitycruiser]

This will probably get a few reactions but that is not my goal.

 

Took the Zuiderdam cruise last week. Just so everyone knows up-front, we enjoyed it completely.

 

Had the whole fam-damily. 4 cabins, 10 people. We had a S suite because we knew we were going to baby sit the grand kids at night while the parents went out. That worked out great. The cabin steward made the sofa bed every night for us. Everything about the suite, from size to perks were great. Will not do it again if it is just the 2 of us because we just don't think it is worth the price. Not because they don't do anything right, just price to value.

 

What I think I did notice, or feel, was a complete relaxation on the part of the crew, and the atmosphere in general, on this cruise. Mostly this was on the Lido deck. Actually let's just say it was just on the Lido deck.

 

Buckets of beer. We sure ordered our share due to the price, as did everyone else. Last year on the Zaandam they had 2 for 1 from 3-6 or 4-6 at the aft pool bar but not buckets. And they sure didn't have bar stations set up in the isles of the Lido restaurant. Is this a bad thing? I am not sure but it sure is different from the Dam ships I have been on in the past.

 

Little things like toast orders being taken after the eggs order (eggs got cold waiting for the toast) made me think that maybe either 1850 passengers are too much or they have shifted a bit on the Carribean Cruises towards Carnaival. The only time you really knew that that many passengers were on the ship was on the Lido. It was the busiest deck of the ship.

 

DCC

[doone]

I am confused, you said the toast order was taken after the egg order. Was this in the dining room or the Lido? I have always found the service in the dining room for breakfast and lunch to be lacking for years, I don't believe that is anything new. I think they are all in the Lido working that area since it seems to be the busiest on all ships.

 

We took the Zuiderdam in March and thoroughly enjoy it, I am glad you did as well.

[peaches from georgia]

.....

Buckets of beer. We sure ordered our share due to the price, as did everyone else. Last year on the Zaandam they had 2 for 1 from 3-6 or 4-6 at the aft pool bar but not buckets. And they sure didn't have bar stations set up in the isles of the Lido restaurant. Is this a bad thing? I am not sure but it sure is different from the Dam ships I have been on in the past.

DCC

BAR STATIONS IN THE LIDO RESTAURANT ON THE ZUIDERDAM??

Where? How many? Never heard of such a thing. Isn't it crowded enough in the Lido with too much traffic to begin with? Sounds like a very bad thing, but please tell us more. :eek:

[dadecitycruiser]

All of this has to do with the Lido. The bars are set up in the main aisles as well as in the coffee area.

 

DCC

[peaches from georgia]

Full service bars? A complete selection of liquor, wine and mixers like a regular bar? I'm not surprised, I'm in shock. I can't imagine how there is room for people to walk around with their trays. Have they removed some tables?

[sail7seas]

Full service bars? A complete selection of liquor, wine and mixers like a regular bar? I'm not surprised, I'm in shock. I can't imagine how there is room for people to walk around with their trays. Have they removed some tables?

 

They have had 'bar carts' in Lido for years now. They usually set one up at the aft entrance ....forward of the rest rooms. They also often set one up near the iced tea station (on ships other than Vista) on the ramp going up to the seating along the windows.

 

This is nothing new. Been doing this for years. You can get cokes, soft drinks, wine by the glass, beer...

[Ziggy7]

Full service bars? A complete selection of liquor, wine and mixers like a regular bar? I'm not surprised, I'm in shock. I can't imagine how there is room for people to walk around with their trays. Have they removed some tables?

No, they are portable bars on wheels, kinda like those that the airlines use down the isles :)

[kryos]

I am confused, you said the toast order was taken after the egg order. Was this in the dining room or the Lido? I have always found the service in the dining room for breakfast and lunch to be lacking for years, I don't believe that is anything new. I think they are all in the Lido working that area since it seems to be the busiest on all ships.

 

We took the Zuiderdam in March and thoroughly enjoy it, I am glad you did as well.

Now, I've had a different experience. I always prefer to be served at breakfast and found service and food in the dining room to be great. I've often gone to the Lido, either because I didn't feel like dressing appropriately for the dining room or due to time constraints, and while the service was always great there too, I just missed someone bringing my breakfast to me.

 

I've never had any problems in the dining room with breakfast service or food. Can't speak to lunch because I rarely eat lunch.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

No, they are portable bars on wheels, kinda like those that the airlines use down the isles :)

They had the exact same thing on the Island Princess a few weeks back. They were doing a pretty good business with them too.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[dakrewser]

The "bar carts" have been in the Lido for at least the past 5 years that I can remember.

[sail7seas]

Yes, they have been there for years. I think them handy if you feel like having a glass of wine with your lunch but don't want to bother going out to Dolphin Bar to get it or want a beer etc

 

[Classynfun1]

BTW, what *is* the dress code for the dining room for breakfast and lunch?

[jgsi]

We were on the May 7 Zuiderdam sailing. I too found Carnival influences on this ship. In particular we found the dining room service to be lacking. Our table enjoyed the breads and on the 2nd night we asked for another basket. You would have thought we asked the waiter to jump overboard by the expression on his face. We did get the second basket, but not for a while. On one other night, I just didn't see any entree on the menu that appealed to me so I just ordered the standard grilled sirloin steak. It was the toughest, most tasteless steak I have had in a long time. Not once, though, during dinner did our waiter come back and ask if everything was ok. It was our headwaiter that cleared the table at the end of the meal and noticed that I did not eat the steak. Only then did he ask if there was a problem. By then, it was too late to order anything else.

 

There were other little things too, but I won't bore you. On Carnival we chalked it up to a cheap cruise and you get what you pay for. This was our first cruise with HAL and had read very good reviews about them. I just didn't expect this with them.

 

I'm not saying we didn't enjoy ourselves but we have been on many cruises and this one would not top our list.

[dakrewser]

On one other night, I just didn't see any entree on the menu that appealed to me so I just ordered the standard grilled sirloin steak. It was the toughest, most tasteless steak I have had in a long time. Not once, though, during dinner did our waiter come back and ask if everything was ok.

 

Good waiters, professional waiters, don't interrupt your conversation to ask if everything is OK - that's something they teach the young and clueless at Chili's, TGIFriday's, Applebee's, etc. Still, he should have noticed your dilema and made himself available should you desire to signal him over to your table.

 

But my advice is that if ever a meal isn't to your satisfaction - on a ship, or a land-based restaurant - don't wait for the server to notice - bring it to the attention of your server, the ara captain or the maitre d'. They only think waiting does is to raise your blood pressure! :rolleyes:

[ekerr19]

Good waiters, professional waiters, don't interrupt your conversation to ask if everything is OK - that's something they teach the young and clueless at Chili's, TGIFriday's, Applebee's, etc. Still, he should have noticed your dilema and made himself available should you desire to signal him over to your table.

 

But my advice is that if ever a meal isn't to your satisfaction - on a ship, or a land-based restaurant - don't wait for the server to notice - bring it to the attention of your server, the ara captain or the maitre d'. They only think waiting does is to raise your blood pressure! :rolleyes:

 

I agree Dave! I never understood why some of these servers walk up, interrupt the meal or conversation and ask "Is everything allright?" (especially annoying while you have food in your mouth). Most of the time, they ask in such a manner that indicates they really could care less if "it's allright" anyway!

 

I always bring any deficiency to the attention of the waitstaff right away - I can't imagine waiting til the end of the meal, but I do know that some of the staff on a few of our cruises have been in have been extremely busy and it may take longer to get someones attention.

[seapointer]

Well, I've never taken a carnival cruise, but we were on the April 23 Zuiderdam sailing. We had excellent service in the dining room, and asked for and quickly got replacements for our empty bread basket almost every evening. As for the steak, we didn't order that but one night my daughter asked for an extra appetizer and it arrived in only a few minutes. I suspect sometimes people are reluctant to complain and wait until it is too late. You don't have to wait for the waiter to ask if there is a problem.....just tell him.

 

 

 

We were on the May 7 Zuiderdam sailing. I too found Carnival influences on this ship. In particular we found the dining room service to be lacking. Our table enjoyed the breads and on the 2nd night we asked for another basket. You would have thought we asked the waiter to jump overboard by the expression on his face. We did get the second basket, but not for a while. On one other night, I just didn't see any entree on the menu that appealed to me so I just ordered the standard grilled sirloin steak. It was the toughest, most tasteless steak I have had in a long time. Not once, though, during dinner did our waiter come back and ask if everything was ok. It was our headwaiter that cleared the table at the end of the meal and noticed that I did not eat the steak. Only then did he ask if there was a problem. By then, it was too late to order anything else.

 

There were other little things too, but I won't bore you. On Carnival we chalked it up to a cheap cruise and you get what you pay for. This was our first cruise with HAL and had read very good reviews about them. I just didn't expect this with them.

 

I'm not saying we didn't enjoy ourselves but we have been on many cruises and this one would not top our list.

[jgsi]

I would have complained about the bad dinner had the waiter been available. By the end of the cruise, we barely saw him unless he was bringing the food out. I know that they are busy and have other tables, but, yes, I am accustomed to them checking on the table during the course of the meal. Like I said, he didn't even clear the table, the headwaiter did. Who, by the way, never even introduced himself.

 

I am not bashing the whole cruise or the staff, I just found it to be very similar to Carnival. Only on Carnival it trickled down to almost all of the staff. We stopped going on Carnival. I would definitely give HAL another try.

[RedmondCruiser]

The Carnival influence question goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that Carnival has owned HAL for about 17 years and without the financial backing of Carnival HAL would not exist. Methods of generating more reveue spread quickly throughout the entire industry. Beverage carts and buckets of beer are just small examples.

 

Carnival has basically left HAL alone. In 2002 Kirk Lanterman stated that Carnival had only been out to Seattle twice and that they had not tried to influence the product.

 

Lets face it without Carnival prices would be higher. Carnival provides clout that carries over into bulk purchases of fuel food and other commodities that cruise lines require.

[Jim Gallup]

There are many factors at play here that may have someting to do with your observations. Some are listed below:

 

Carnival bought HAL 17 years ago. Have you noticed these changes happening since then, or just recently?

 

HAL has only had larger ships for the past 3 years. Larger ships, by their very nature, have a more impersonal feeling and style about them. Have you noticed these changes happening since the larger ships came along?

 

Since 9/11, prices for cruises have dropped dramatically - attracting a much more "relaxed" (to put it nicely) demographic - with decidedly lower sets of expectations and requirements for enjoying the cruise experience. Have you noticed these changes happening since 9/11?

 

Twenty years ago the industry-wide average recommended gratuity was $20 per passenger per day. Today it is half that much. We have cut the salaries of our service staff by 50% - and lost many of the better ones, who can now earn more money at home with their families. Have you noticed these changes happening since the tipping has been reduced?

[jgsi]

I would say that these changes haven't occurred drastically, but rather gradually over the past few years. I feel that the tips being put on your charge have something to do with the decline in service. We would always tip more than the recommended amount especially if that person went above and beyond the call of duty. There really isn't any monetary reason for the staff to do more because they will get the same tip as everyone else now.

Yes, you can still give cash over and above what is on your charge, but on this trip, noone went beyond their basic duties.

 

I agree that the price of cruising dropped dramatically after 9/11, but those prices have definitely gone back up.

 

Again, let me say that I am not bashing HAL, just sharing some observations and experiences.

[ekerr19]

I think many of the changes are a direct result of the person who is now the President and CEO of the Corporation.

 

I think Kirk Lanterman may have had a somewhat different vision than that of Stein Kruse.

 

Jim - You won't need to remind me (or probably anyone else) that one of the primary goals of the corporation is to make money for its shareholders, I have no issue with that; however I don't think it should be the only goal of any corporation.

 

It seems that there have been more cuts and negative changes that have taken place under Stein Kruse's rein - and now the bottom line is the only priority.

[peaches from georgia]

I think the launching of 3, soon to be 4, larger ships in conjunction with a slumping economy and terrorism fears all combined to have a domino effect on everything about cruising. Prices dropped to keep these ships full, a new demographic of pax started cruising, various factors (increased need for crew, immigration problems, etc.) necessitated a cutback in staffing the individual ships, pressure on profit margins caused a decrease in amenities and/or nickel and diming the pax- one thing led to another and cruising with HAL is not what it was pre-2001. There is no one reason but a combination of factors.

[jhannah]

I agree, Peaches. I don't see how one can call it "Carnivalization" at all. I've seen posts from people who were thoroughly pleased with the food and service they had on a Carnival ship. On our Zaandam cruise last week, our rolls were replaced without asking. So much depends on the factors mentioned plus the dining room staff on a particular ship. They can make or break the experience. While we've noticed the cutbacks in recent years, I guess we've been lucky that we haven't had any real bad service issues.

[PhylHarv]

We just returned from a great Transatlantic cruise on the Rotterdam. Yes, we have noticed changes over the years since we first began cruising on HAL, but we have no complaints about our dining room service. Since we ate at 8:30, we had no problem with service, food, etc. Our waiter, assistant, and maitre 'd always were very attentive. Anything we requested, they did their best to accommodate us--went beyond our expectations in most cases. As for tipping, we always give an additional tip at the beginning of the cruise as well as later, and have never had a problem with service. We feel these people deserve anything we give them. They are always so appreciative of whatever we give them.

[Jim Gallup]

jgsi,

 

You say:

There really isn't any monetary reason for the staff to do more because they will get the same tip as everyone else now.

Yes, you can still give cash over and above what is on your charge, but on this trip, noone went beyond their basic duties.

I agree that the price of cruising dropped dramatically after 9/11, but those prices have definitely gone back up.

 

 

But the reality was - and is:

The staff have ALWAYS known that they would get the same tip as everyone else. After you gave the envelopes to the staff in the old days, they pooled all the cash and then split it up and handed it back out. The only differences today are:

1. The cash comes in an envelope from the Purser at the end of the cruise, instead of in an envelope from you.

2. In the good old days, the staff received much higher tips - in fact double what they do today. Do you think if we offered to pay the staff twice as much again, they would be willing to work as hard as they did before?

 

RMS Titanic in 1912 charged $2,850 per person for a 5 day cruise (in a 2nd class cabin) from London to New York. (That year the average American earned $300 for the entire year)

Royal Viking in 1972 charged $4,000 per person (standard outside cabin) for a one week cruise from San Francisco to the Mexican Riviera on the Royal Viking Star.

 

So you think that the cruise prices have definitely gone back up since 9/11?

 

Note:

Royal Viking Star cost $35 Million to build.

HAL Westerdam cost $450 Million to build.

 

Royal Viking Star could cruise for a year on $1 Million worth of fuel.

Westerdam can cruise for just over 3 weeks on $1 Million worth of fuel.