Shame on HAL

[PatsyAnne]

I give up

 

HAL can do no wrong

It's not that HAL can do no wrong. Just that this is clearly not an instance of it. No way would they get away with blatantly breaking a contract like that, and no way the workers would not know what they signed. IMHO

[vicocala]

Copper,

 

If you wouldn't mind and see this could you answer this question for me?

 

How many of those who work during the refurbishment are normally paid tips, and what percentage of those workers total salary (excluding room and board, just the paychecks) are actually tips assuming everyone was honest in their tip reporting?

 

Thanks! These questions are what settles the matter, at least to me.

[kazu]

Copper,

 

If you wouldn't mind and see this could you answer this question for me?

 

How many of those who work during the refurbishment are normally paid tips, and what percentage of those workers total salary (excluding room and board, just the paychecks) are actually tips assuming everyone was honest in their tip reporting?

 

Thanks! These questions are what settles the matter, at least to me.

 

I am not Copper - but I can tell you right now that there will be no tips during refurbishment (aka drydock) - no passengers = no tips - All emplyees on the ships get tips - that's why HAL created the HSC (some more than others but all get it to the best of my kniowledge) I'll let someone else answer the rest although I had thought that Copper had addressed it earlier - making it clear that tips are not the major portion of their pay

[ASIWISH]

Further Cooper, for my clarification... I have a samll handful of crew that have maintained facebook "friend" realtionships with my wife and I over the past 3-4 years.

 

We exchange comments relatively frequently. In fact one invited us to their wedding in Indonesia, but we didn't attend.

 

None of them seem to be anything but thrilled with the job, but do look forward to one day coming home.

 

Would you say that the crew feels deprived or aubused? I hear it so often.... and would love to know the truth from someone who lives and works among them.

 

I'd appreciate your honest assessment.

[Ineke]

Wow, I didn't know that about Copper John! The last time I saw him he was still a passenger like the rest of us. That's really cool, I'm glad to hear it.

[Copper10-8]

Sorry for the delay! Still shaking my head at what "some" are attempting to do here!:) I'll make this short! What the OP heard on Prinsendam (and I'm sure he heard it correctly) was incorrect information given to him! Crew on the ship, all crew, do not work without a signed contract. That contract covers the entire time they are onboard until the day they go home on vacation! If, during that contract time, their ship goes into a drydock period, they continue to get paid!

[jtl513]

All emplyees on the ships get tips - that's why HAL created the HSC (some more than others but all get it to the best of my kniowledge)

I don't think that's true. I believe no Officers and none of the "Engineering Dept" (those running and maintaining the mechanical, non-hotel aspects of the ship) get anything from the HSC pool. But I could be wrong. :p

[Copper10-8]

I don't think that's true. I believe no Officers and none of the "Engineering Dept" (those running and maintaining the mechanical, non-hotel aspects of the ship) get anything from the HSC pool. But I could be wrong. :p

 

Bingo;)

[PathfinderEss]

As always Copper thanks for being the voice of reason and for bringing some sanity to this thread.

[serendipity1499]

It would be no more inappropriate than a reply from DBA was - he simply gave some facts - and the fact that some might try to get more tips is nothing new in the world and is not limited to cruise ships.

 

I appreciated his reply but that's just me;)

 

Me too.

 

And me too!..

Looks like the OP did not read the WEB sites which clearly indicates the salaries & info about cruise employee contracts, or the article written by an ex crew member..

Some will never be convinced that they could be wrong..

[vicocala]

I am not Copper - but I can tell you right now that there will be no tips during refurbishment (aka drydock) - no passengers = no tips - All emplyees on the ships get tips - that's why HAL created the HSC (some more than others but all get it to the best of my kniowledge) I'll let someone else answer the rest although I had thought that Copper had addressed it earlier - making it clear that tips are not the major portion of their pay

 

You are misreading my question. I know they don't get tips during drydock. Let me restate it: What % of those who are working NORMALLY would get tips (if they were getting the hotel fees, ie, foodservice, stewards, etc.)

 

And what % of their NORMAL pay is tips vs. contracted salary.

 

I hope I have made it clear this time.:)

[serendipity1499]

You are misreading my question. I know they don't get tips during drydock. Let me restate it: What % of those who are working NORMALLY would get tips (if they were getting the hotel fees, ie, foodservice, stewards, etc.)

 

And what % of their NORMAL pay is tips vs. contracted salary.

 

I hope I have made it clear this time.:)

 

I'm not Copper10-8 but believe that depends on what ships they are on..The sizes of the ships determine how many Hotel Employees are needed to run the Hotel Dept..Employees who are in the Hotel department share in the tips..Obviously, more hotel empoloyees are needed on the larger ships vs the smaller ships..

As JTL mentioned Officers, engineering, security entertainers etc., which do not report to the Hotel Mgr. do not share in the tips..I also don't believe that the front desk or the shore excursion desk shares in the tips, but I could be wrong..

I've talked to many crew members who have worked on HAL ships during dry dock, & the only thing they confirmed was that during dry dock they don't get tips, which is understood..They all love their jobs & many of them have signed many contracts with HAL..We've even been fortunate to have some of the same crew on several of our HAL cruises..In 2006, Joyce a writer for " Under the Captains Table" & an ex crew member wrote:

Quote I suggest you don't listen to all the stories of such poverty-stricken crew members with low salaries and terrible lives. When tipping, you are not paying for every crew member onboard the ship. Each position on the ship is paid according to the industry rates for that position. So, for instance, a waiter can earn between $2,000 and $3,200 per month (while a busboy will pull in $1,200 - $1,800). A cabin steward's monthly salary is anywhere between $1,600 and $2,600. A massage therapist will rake in $2,000 - $3,000. (Note: As an FYI, average salaries for cruise staffers who don't earn tips include $3,000 - $7,000 for a cruise director and $1,500 - $2,200 for a social hostess).Unquote

She goes on to say: Quote I know several cruise staffers who have succeeded in opening their own restaurants, convenience stores, tailor shops, Amway distribution businesses, children's day care centers and more. Yet others have made it a full career onboard: paid for their kids' and grandkids' education, and only later to retire with their kids already having moved on with life. Unquote

As another poster stated, if they were not happy with their contracts they would not return year after year..BTW Salary guidelines are stipulated by the ITF.

Betty

 

 

 

 

 

[vicocala]

I'm certainly not saying they are slave labor. And if the information is confidential that is fine also. I have read what Joyce wrote before. I am a numbers person with an accounting degree. I was just curious as to what percentage of the salary is tips. Here in the US of A, minimum wage laws are different for those who depend on tips than hourly regular wages.

 

I was also interested in what percentage of workers were actually serving the workers who are doing the actual refurbishment.

 

I find it interesting.

[mkam2821]

John, thank you for the very clear explanation. Sometimes how different people process what is said is very interesting.

 

I used to carry a quote with me that sums it up nicely -"I know you think you heard what I said, but what you understood is not what I meant"

 

Love it, thank you. I may tatoo this on my forehead (both for my DH and my secretary LOL)

[whogo]

While it is not slavery, the crew will suffer financially during the two week dry dock. Affluent cruisers may not know what it is to live from paycheck to paycheck. Losing two or three or four hundred dollars in tips per week will be a struggle for some. The crew will consider the dry dock a two week cut in pay which will not help morale.

[DFD1]

I don't understand all the hand-wringing and pity for the staff. They KNOW IN ADVANCE the terms of their contract. They work on the ship because they chose to, not because they are in chains, for goodness sake.

[kazu]

I don't think that's true. I believe no Officers and none of the "Engineering Dept" (those running and maintaining the mechanical, non-hotel aspects of the ship) get anything from the HSC pool. But I could be wrong. :p

 

thanks John - I made too general a statement:o:o I was thinking in terms of the hotel aspect - forgot to clarify - thanks for the correction:)

[iancal]

Cruise lines are usually off shore companies for financial,legal and regulatory reasons.

 

Would you be willing to pay a significantly higher cruise fare in order to ensure that all employees are subject to US labor codes,including health and workplace safety regulations?

[cruiseing marly]

I have always thought that the room stewards and dining staff would make at least 80 % of there money from service charge and extras from guests ! Nothing to back this up but Canadians and Americans do like to tip ! :)

[innlady1]

I could be wrong but I think the length of their contract is usually 11 months...give or take. How often does a ship go into drydock? Once every couple of years for a week :confused: Putting it in that perspective, it's really a very short amount of time overall.

[ariawoman]

Just disembark from Prinsendam (TATL from Civitavecchia) heard from 2 different steward that during the drydock in the Bahamas that they have to work for free during these two weeks.

 

There will be 700 workers that will stay on board and they will have to take care of them for room and board only...that is close to slavery.:mad:

 

I'd like to play devil's advocate here. I've only read half the thread so forgive me if someone already brought this up....

 

I am a full time employee of a private company. I'm an "exempt" employee - I signed a contract with them stating such. I'm supposed to only work 40 hours in a work week - however oftentimes I'm forced to work overtime for NO PAY as it's stipulated in my contract that I don't receive OT pay as Im exempt.

 

Does this mean you'd be writing a "Shame On" post regarding my employer when I told you I had to work 13 hours the night before even though I'm only in the books for 8?

 

Just curious as to why it's any different in the cruise line industry than any other industry.

[jtl513]

I could be wrong but I think the length of their contract is usually 11 months...give or take. How often does a ship go into drydock? Once every couple of years for a week :confused: Putting it in that perspective, it's really a very short amount of time overall.

This dry dock is 14 days. If a pair of room stewards lose out on $8 (35% of $23) per day per cabin and have 30 cabins to service, that's $3,360 for the full dry dock - $1,680 per man. That's not chump change to me, and I'm sure they miss it even more! :(

[cruisemom42]

I admit I have not read the contracts (do not enjoy legal documents, lol), but it's been my understanding through previous discussions that, while the ship's crew are expected to make a certain percentage (I have no idea what that number is) from tips, their contracts do guarantee them a certain base wage.

 

In other words, if they fail to meet that guaranteed minimum through tips, the cruise line makes it up in salary.

 

Now granted, this may not the same amount as they would make if they were getting the full amount of tips from every paying passenger on a cruise. However, it is more than they would make if the cruise line were not guaranteeing them a certain mininum. Also, perhaps they are not working QUITE as hard or for as many hours as they would with a ship full of paying passengers on a cruise either.

[innlady1]

This dry dock is 14 days. If a pair of room stewards lose out on $8 (35% of $23) per day per cabin and have 30 cabins to service, that's $3,360 for the full dry dock - $1,680 per man. That's not chump change to me, and I'm sure they miss it even more! :(

 

I doubt these dry docks come as a surprise to the crew...I'm certain they know well in advance that for a week or two down the road, they will be in dry dock and not receive tips. That's what they sign on for.

My sister spent a month in Bali in the spring and she told me how low their wages are if they work at home...she knows we sail HAL so she asked how people like the jobs on the ships...they view those folks as very, very fortunate.

[Viesczy]

Just par for the course with a Corporation SQUEEZING their workers until the entire family bleeds.

 

Pay them next to nothing. Check.

 

Make them share the automatic gratuity. Check.

 

Rake in crazy bonuses in Corporate. Check.

 

That formula above is all that Seattle cares about.

 

Derek