Obtaining a Chip & Pin Credit Card - My Experience

[-Lew-]

 

Just to reply to -Lew-'s comment that the pin gets imbedded in the chip. Not mine. Just like the black stripe on the back of cards, it only contains the account info. When you insert the chip into the reader it connects to your bank and then when you enter your Pin it is encrypted and sent to the bank system to verify you are using the card and not someone else who has just stolen your card and fakes your signature (happened to me to the tune of $1000!).

With the Andrews FCU card the PIN is embedded in the chip and on the mag stripe. The text below was taken from a FAQ on the Andrews FCU website:

Can I customize my PIN?

 

The PIN issued to your card is pre-set with the magnetic strip and chip and therefore not customizable. Please memorize your PIN in order to use your new card anywhere outside the U.S., and at ATM locations throughout the states.

I am sure the reason that the US is not jumping on board is the cost of the terminals. I guess it is cheaper to pay for the fraudulent purchases than to replace the terminals.

I have no doubt that the cost of upgraded point of sale equipment would be borne by the retailer, not the financial institutions. Fraud, in most cases, is the financial institution's problem, not the retailer's.

 

Lew

[Charles4515]

I disagree...

 

How does one account for nearly 100% participation in Europe and Canada? VISA and Mastercard are the major issuers of credit cards there also.

 

As for the expense incurred when a terminal won't accept a swiped card, as a business owner for 25 years, I can tell you the business bears the additional expense of securing approval...not the issuer or the financial institution.

 

Lew

 

But what is your liabilty after you secure approval? None if you get a signature. The bank takes the loss. In Europe and elsewhere they have put the liabilty is on the merchant and consumer. And in many places the terminals are not connected to a network so approval can't be gotten instantly.

 

So because of the liabilty laws in the US and the low rate of fraud in the US the large merchants and card issuers don't have the motivation they have in other counties to buy chip and pin terminals.

 

Does your business have chip and pin terminals?

[Charles4515]

I have no doubt that the cost of upgraded point of sale equipment would be borne by the retailer, not the financial institutions. Fraud, in most cases, is the financial institution's problem, not the retailer's.

 

Lew

 

And that is why we don't have chip and pin in the US. In other countries fraud is the retailers problem. And consumers problem. Different liability laws.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Charles4515

[-Lew-]

 

But what is your liabilty after you secure approval? None if you get a signature. The bank takes the loss. In Europe and elsewhere they have put the liabilty is on the merchant and consumer. And in many places the terminals are not connected to a network so approval can't be gotten instantly.

I could tell you some stories that would make your head spin. Over 25 years there instances where we deserved to be charged back due to errors on our part. However, there were also times when we were charged back when we did everything correctly and received electronic approval. We'd appeal, but it did no good.

 

Does your business have chip and pin terminals?

We sold in 2004, but no, we did not have Chip & Pin terminals. I don't believe there are any Chip & Pin terminals in the US.

 

Lew

[Hlitner]

But what is your liabilty after you secure approval? None if you get a signature. The bank takes the loss. In Europe and elsewhere they have put the liabilty is on the merchant and consumer. And in many places the terminals are not connected to a network so approval can't be gotten instantly.

 

........

 

?

 

This is not normally the case. The reality is that the European system works better then the US system. Just about all merchants and restaurants are directly connected to the EMV (Europe/MasterCard/Visa) Network. In restaurants, if you use a credit card, the waiter will bring a wireless reader to your table so that your card never leaves your sight. That little machine immediately verifies your card, allows you to enter your PIN (and a tip if you want), and then spits out the receipt. The merchant has no liability.

 

A bigger issue for US travelers is that more and more of the devices will not accept the US magnetic strip cards. The merchants do have the ability to manually process the cards (they might have to call it in) but many do not want to bother. This caused us some grief when we stayed in Bruges where our B&B was not even allowed to accept a non-Chip card. And the same thing happened at 2 restaurants. Their local bank, who supplied the new readers, had given them readers that only functioned with Chip cards. I am not sure if they would have accepted a Chip/signature card like the ones issued by some US institutions.

 

Hank

Edited June 20, 2013 by Hlitner

[Charles4515]

This is not normally the case. The reality is that the European system works better then the US system. Just about all merchants and restaurants are directly connected to the EMV (Europe/MasterCard/Visa) Network. In restaurants, if you use a credit card, the waiter will bring a wireless reader to your table so that your card never leaves your sight. That little machine immediately verifies your card, allows you to enter your PIN (and a tip if you want), and then spits out the receipt. The merchant has no liability.

 

 

Hank

 

US merchants don't care if the European system may work better. They have a system that works. No liability if they accept the card correctly. They don't need a chip and pin terminal to aviod liability like they do in Europe so they don't have any motivation to have chip and pin terminals. Plus the banks don't issue chip and pin cards. So duh......nothing right now motivates them to spend a few billion and replace what they have with chip and pin terminals.

 

Of course as a US traveler I wish the US banks did issue chip and pin cards. I am only explaining why they have not been. They have not cared to do it only for our convienience but now a few are issuing it for travelers.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Charles4515

[-Lew-]

I thought I'd report back on my experience using the Andrews FCU chip & pin card recently in Europe.

 

We flew into Florence on October 1st where we spent five nights before driving to Venice by way of Verona on October 6th. We embarked the Royal Princess TA on October 9th and disembarked in Ft. Lauderdale October 27th.

 

I so wanted to enter my pin number when making purchases in Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, but was never asked. Each and every time I made a purchase, even at the Coop in Piazzale Roma when the person before me at the checkout was asked, I was asked for ID and then asked to sign. :mad: I questioned whether my card was mis-programmed as a chip & signature card.

 

I was about to return home without enjoying the full potential of my shiny new chip & pin card when I heard my wife being asked to enter her pin when making our final purchase of our trip in Funchal. She entered the pin and voilà...the purchase was approved!

 

The card worked fine most of the time except for one of two purchases in Taormina and all attempts along the Amalfi Coast. In all cases I resorted to my Capital One card which worked. A call to Andrews VISA via magicJack confirmed there was nothing on their end to prevent charges to the card. The card worked the following day north of Rome and for the rest of the trip.

 

Lew

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Thanks Lew for that helpful information. We have the chip and signature BA Chase Visa (no foreign transaction fee) which my DH keeps insisting is all we need (he never reads forums). BA Chase Visa gave us a PIN number after we called and asked but I am sure it will not function like a chip and pin card and don't want to be caught in a situation like you have mentioned. So far we were never asked for a pin, but we have never been in "unmanned situations".

 

I will go ahead and do the Andrews AF CU when I return from my Italy trip this month.

 

Thanks again.

[slidergirl]

Thanks Lew for that helpful information. We have the chip and signature BA Chase Visa (no foreign transaction fee) which my DH keeps insisting is all we need (he never reads forums). BA Chase Visa gave us a PIN number after we called and asked but I am sure it will not function like a chip and pin card and don't want to be caught in a situation like you have mentioned. So far we were never asked for a pin, but we have never been in "unmanned situations".

 

I will go ahead and do the Andrews AF CU when I return from my Italy trip this month.

 

Thanks again.

 

The PIN you got may be to use at ATMs, not charging machines. My Citi HHonors Visa has the chip& sig and I have a PIN for it. But, the pin doesn't work at the "unmanned stations"…. Be sure you have enough cash handy in case your hubby discovers that it does not work as he thinks it will ;)

[SadieN]

Any new info about Chip & Pin cards issued by US institutions?

 

DD is studying in Rome and has been warned that she needs a Chip and Pin card asap. Do not know if this info is from the school or her local bancomat.

Edited December 7, 2013 by SadieN

[-Lew-]

 

Any new info about Chip & Pin cards issued by US institutions?

 

DD is studying in Rome and has been warned that she needs a Chip and Pin card asap. Do not know if this info is from the school or her local bancomat.

I've not come across a Bancomat that required a Chip & Pin debit card. I'm not aware Chip & Pin debit cards exist. That's not to say that financial institutions in Europe are not moving in that direction.

 

You and your DD should be aware that withdrawing cash from a Bancomat with a credit card will incur interest charges beginning the day of the withdrawal.

 

With respect to Chip & Pin credit cards, Andrews Federal Credit Union has upgraded its website in the past few months and will be upgrading some of the card's features on December 10th.

 

Since your DD will be in Rome for awhile, perhaps credit and debit cards issues by a local bank would be the best option.

 

Lew

[maryann ns]

Chip and Pin debit cards exist in Canada.

 

Your daughter getting a local account is a great idea. We spent 14 months based in France and that is what we did. When we needed more local money we would write a cheque on our Canadian account and deposit it into our French account. It would take a time to clear, but it was an easy, inexpensive way to do this.

[-Lew-]

 

Chip and Pin debit cards exist in Canada.

True...but SadieN lives in California.

 

Lew

[SadieN]

Lew--

Thanks for the info. She's been in Rome for two years now and will be there for another two. She has a Schwab card that incurs no extra fees. Lately she's been having problems at certain bancomats not accepting her card.

 

And yes we are in California near the Ontario airport. every once in a while we get travelers who expect snow on the ground but instead get palm trees.

There have been other issues as well, funny in hindsight. Wish the Chaffey Brothers named the area something else.

[ridge4]

Another option is the Visa branded cards from Pentagon Federal Credit Union. They are both chip and pin / chip and signature. I used mine in Europe on a trip this month, we returned 12/15.

 

In manned situations, it performed as chip and signature. But at the kiosk in the Barcelona metro, it promptly asked for my pin and worked beautifully. It has the added benefit of no forex fees. I assume it depends on the machine running the card, as to when pin is requested.

 

You do not have to be affiliated with the military to join. There are many other options, such as joining the National Military Family Association for a one-time fee of $20, or Voices for America's Troops for a one-time fee of $15.

 

We have been members for years. They often have great loan rates, our used car is currently financed through Penfed. They also have excellent customer service.

 

Note that the Amex branded cards do not yet offer chip and pin through Penfed.

[-Lew-]

 

Another option is the Visa branded cards from Pentagon Federal Credit Union.

Thanks for the information on PenFed.

 

One disappointing aspect of the Andrews FCU VISA card is they do not provide eBills to online bill payment services. This makes it a bit difficult when on extended trips as I have to go online to the VISA site to get my balance and then access my online bill payment website to enter payment information. Not a big deal stateside, but it can be while traveling. All my other bills are paid in full automatically so I don't need to be concerned with them.

 

So my question: Do you happen to know whether PenFed provides eBills?

 

Thanks...

 

Lew

[ridge4]

Thanks for the information on PenFed.

 

One disappointing aspect of the Andrews FCU VISA card is they do not provide eBills to online bill payment services. This makes it a bit difficult when on extended trips as I have to go online to the VISA site to get my balance and then access my online bill payment website to enter payment information. Not a big deal stateside, but it can be while traveling. All my other bills are paid in full automatically so I don't need to be concerned with them.

 

So my question: Do you happen to know whether PenFed provides eBills?

 

Thanks...

 

Lew

 

I don't use e-bills, so I can't be certain, but I don't believe they do. I am going by the list provided to me from my bank's website. I use their bill-pay, and it shows a list of payees eligible for e-bills. Penfed is not on the list. :(

Edited December 26, 2013 by ridge4

[Hlitner]

Thanks for the information on PenFed.

 

One disappointing aspect of the Andrews FCU VISA card is they do not provide eBills to online bill payment services. This makes it a bit difficult when on extended trips as I have to go online to the VISA site to get my balance and then access my online bill payment website to enter payment information. Not a big deal stateside, but it can be while traveling. All my other bills are paid in full automatically so I don't need to be concerned with them.

 

So my question: Do you happen to know whether PenFed provides eBills?

 

Thanks...

 

Lew

 

Lew, Like you (and partially because of you) we got ourselves involved with Andrews and are now in a very good place with that friendly credit union. But it did take us a few months to work through all the options. Initially we did get their Global Trek Visa and then noticed that the payment options were a minor pain. We simple used our local credit union's (which is our primary bank) online bill payor system and set it up so that we could pay the Andrews Visa via our bill payor (at the other credit union). But then we decided it might make sense to also get an Andrews debit card as another back-up on our long trips...as they charge no foreign exchange fees or other fees on that debit card. Or course this meant we also had to technically set up an Andrews checking account (to service the debit card) but that created another way to pay their visa (transferring from the checking to the Visa..online).

 

We have also been able to set-up (with Andrews) an online bank transfer option (at no cost) that allows us to move money between banks with a few clicks of the mouse. Am loving all these new backups and backups to the backups since we have a few lengthy foreign trips in the coming year. But we are thinking we might have to go back to College and take a few new Finance Courses to keep all this straight.

 

Another advantage to an additional Debit card is the ability to get more daily foreign currency from ATMS.

 

Hank

P.S A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

[dalgirl]

We used our Andrews CC on our last trip to Europe in October - they never asked us to put in a pin number and always asked us to sign. The point of getting this card was to not worry about using it under any circumstances, and we did not have a problem. But I thought that it would automatically use pin. Anyone else experience this?

[-Lew-]

 

I don't use e-bills, so I can't be certain, but I don't believe they do. I am going by the list provided to me from my bank's website. I use their bill-pay, and it shows a list of payees eligible for e-bills. Penfed is not on the list. :(

Interesting... Thank you.

 

 

We used our Andrews CC on our last trip to Europe in October - they never asked us to put in a pin number and always asked us to sign. The point of getting this card was to not worry about using it under any circumstances, and we did not have a problem. But I thought that it would automatically use pin. Anyone else experience this?

As I mentioned above, we were not required to enter our pin until our very last purchase in Europe...at a retail store. I don't know the reasoning behind requiring or not requiring a pin, but I was ecstatic when my wife was asked to enter her pin in Madeira...our final stop before heading across the Atlantic.

 

Lew

[-Lew-]

 

Lew, Like you (and partially because of you) we got ourselves involved with Andrews and are now in a very good place with that friendly credit union. But it did take us a few months to work through all the options. Initially we did get their Global Trek Visa and then noticed that the payment options were a minor pain. We simple used our local credit union's (which is our primary bank) online bill payor system and set it up so that we could pay the Andrews Visa via our bill payor (at the other credit union). But then we decided it might make sense to also get an Andrews debit card as another back-up on our long trips...as they charge no foreign exchange fees or other fees on that debit card. Or course this meant we also had to technically set up an Andrews checking account (to service the debit card) but that created another way to pay their visa (transferring from the checking to the Visa..online).

 

We have also been able to set-up (with Andrews) an online bank transfer option (at no cost) that allows us to move money between banks with a few clicks of the mouse. Am loving all these new backups and backups to the backups since we have a few lengthy foreign trips in the coming year. But we are thinking we might have to go back to College and take a few new Finance Courses to keep all this straight.

 

Another advantage to an additional Debit card is the ability to get more daily foreign currency from ATMS.

 

Hank

P.S A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Some good points, Hank. I have ACH set up with Cap1 for funding my checking account / debit card there. I should probably look into Andrews' debit card for the reasons you state. Thanks for relating your experience.

 

Happy New Year to you too...

 

Lew

[Hlitner]

Since somebody asked about Chip-Signature vs Chip-PIN we can share the answer (we recently spent some time researching the situation. In most cases, the Chip-Signature and Chip-Pin cards have exactly the same chip which meets the most common EMV (Eurocard, MC, Visa) stardard. That Chip gives the financial institution several options (when the Chip is programmed) among which is to have either the signature or Pin options set as the default. In the case of some cards like the Andrews FCU Global Trek Card (mentioned in previous posts) the institution has set "Signature" as the default. So if you use that card in any place that allows the signature option (i.e. most restaurants) the credit machine will automatically spit out a receipt that must be signed. If that is not an option (such as at a ticket machine) it will then allow you to complete the transaction with just your PIN (and no signature). Many other cards issued in Europe and Canada will default to the PIN option. The reason that Andrews (and some other banks) chose signature as their default is that a signature transaction costs them less money then a Pin transaction. And since Andrews (and many other banks) pays the transaction costs they simply chose to minimize their cost.

 

I should add that I recently saw where there are now more then 1.55 Billion EMV compliant cards in circulation. Unfortunately for we Americans, there are not many in our country :(

 

Hank

Edited December 27, 2013 by Hlitner

[ridge4]

In the case of some cards like the Andrews FCU Global Trek Card (mentioned in previous posts) the institution has set "Signature" as the default. So if you use that card in any place that allows the signature option (i.e. most restaurants) the credit machine will automatically spit out a receipt that must be signed. If that is not an option (such as at a ticket machine) it will then allow you to complete the transaction with just your PIN (and no signature).

Hank

That is exactly the way the Penfed Visa worked on our trip. :)

[Av8tor]

With the Andrews FCU card the PIN is embedded in the chip and on the mag stripe. The text below was taken from a FAQ on the Andrews FCU website:

Can I customize my PIN?

The PIN issued to your card is pre-set with the magnetic strip and chip and therefore not customizable. Please memorize your PIN in order to use your new card anywhere outside the U.S., and at ATM locations throughout the states.

I have no doubt that the cost of upgraded point of sale equipment would be borne by the retailer, not the financial institutions. Fraud, in most cases, is the financial institution's problem, not the retailer's.

 

Lew

 

That doesn't seem very secure to me. If the card is read with an illegal skimmer the thieves would get both the account info AND the PIN which defeats the purpose of having a PIN in the first place...

[Charles4515]

That doesn't seem very secure to me. If the card is read with an illegal skimmer the thieves would get both the account info AND the PIN which defeats the purpose of having a PIN in the first place...

 

It is not more secure if it has the magnetic stripe. The reason I would like a true chip and pin card is convenience. Unmanned kiosks in Europe might only accept chip and pin. Not chip and signature. I have a chip and signature card and found two places that I could not use it. A ticket machine at a Vappareto stop in Venice and a ticket machine on the Barcelona Metro. It was no big deal though. I bought the tickets with Euros. But it seems odd that my chip card from Bank of America is not chip and pin, only chip and signature. I am not going to open another card account just to get chip and pin because it is rarely needed. My non chip cards and chip and signature cards were accepted everywhere important. I will wait the day my cards come with it.