Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[Tithonus]

Since the issue was whether or not the child was an American citizen, I figured that "they didn't have a passport" would be understood as "American" passport.

 

k.

 

That's lots of stuff going on in your head, but on a message board, I can't see what's not typed.

[MsTabbyKats]

In thinking this over....we only know what the father said. We don't really know "the conversations".

 

I'm kind of thinking Carnival offered them what they did to appease the family and the "adoption community".

 

I think...and it's just my opinion...obviously no facts...that if Carnival accepted the blame....and the child did indeed have the proper documentation...they would have offered a full refund.

 

Again...I didn't read any real facts....just "he said she said".......

 

And, if anything....this should impress the importance of getting that passport for the adopted child to that community.

 

Note...I have a 50 year old relative, born in South Africa. She's been in the US 25 years and has a green card for decades. She's getting her citizenship this week only because of "travel" issues. She said it's a real PITA without that American passport.

[42CruiseCrazy]

Since the issue was whether or not the child was an American citizen, I figured that "they didn't have a passport" would be understood as "American" passport.

 

My husband has lots of nationalities (moved around) but he is an American citizen and travels only with his American passport. My son is also multi-national....and I got him his first passport when he was under a year old...just to avoid confusion.

 

Perhaps and probably Carnival made an error...but when there are so many variables involved....a passport is a very small investment to save a lot of time and explanations. It doesn't matter what is valid and what isn't..... people make mistakes. And as a parent, it's your job to simplify your child's life and paperwork.

 

Everyone agrees that a passport is the very best way to identify yourself when traveling. This child did have a passport. There was no question of the child identity. There was no question of the child being admitted into the US legally. There was no question of the child's adoption and that he was travelling with the adoptive parents. The Carnival agent stopped the family from boarding because of legal technicalities that are confusing to me and for most people. Mistakes are bound to happen especially when you stop exercising a little common sense and rely solely on "the law".

 

 

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[awhcruiser]

OK, Lana

That's lots of stuff going on in your head, but on a message board, I can't see what's not typed.

[MsTabbyKats]

Everyone agrees that a passport is the very best way to identify yourself when traveling. This child did have a passport. There was no question of the child identity. There was no question of the child being admitted into the US legally. There was no question of the child's adoption and that he was travelling with the adoptive parents. The Carnival agent stopped the family from boarding because of legal technicalities that are confusing to me and for most people. Mistakes are bound to happen especially when you stop exercising a little common sense and rely solely on "the law".

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

Not everyone agrees...IMHO the cruise line should make a passport mandatory and end the endless debate. (Especially in those grey areas of citizenship....)

 

Although it may seem pointless to most....there is a reason for these laws.

[42CruiseCrazy]

Not everyone agrees...IMHO the cruise line should make a passport mandatory and end the endless debate. (Especially in those grey areas of citizenship....)

 

Although it may seem pointless to most....there is a reason for these laws.

 

I never said the laws are pointless. What is wrong is being so obsessed with following the letter of the law that common sense and reasonable behaviour gets lost.

 

 

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[CI66774]

Not everyone agrees...IMHO the cruise line should make a passport mandatory and end the endless debate. (Especially in those grey areas of citizenship....)

 

Although it may seem pointless to most....there is a reason for these laws.

 

I think we all agree that having a U.S. passport minimizes difficulties and makes things pretty darn clear for any border agent, cruise line rep, etc. Ideally, everyone should have one. That being said, it's not required on closed loop cruises. Until the time it is, we have the system/requirements we have. Now, I obtained a passport for my child when she was very, very young. I don't like carrying around a ton of documentation because, knowing me, I will misplace them. But some people balk at the expense or time commitment necessary to obtain a passport, or they rarely ever travel to where a passport is needed, etc. I guess the bottom line is the family states Carnival told them the child could have traveled. I take them at their word until I hear something different.

[MsTabbyKats]

I never said the laws are pointless. What is wrong is being so obsessed with following the letter of the law that common sense and reasonable behaviour gets lost.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

Because sometimes...when we use common sense....things happen that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

The person who is supposed to follow the law and lets things "slip by"....is the one who gets the blame if "something goes wrong".

 

Suppose the child (or any person) didn't have the proper documentation....and wasn't allowed re-entry to the US after the cruise? (Again...what the child had and what Carnival said is only hearsay.)

 

I have several relatives who are Israeli citizens...but born in Iraq (which is written on the Israeli passport). My 50 year old SIL was on a tour of Alaska...and the group flew to Canada to get a flight back to Israel. She was planning to fly to NYC to visit us instead. She had just been in the US (Alaska) but she got detained in Canada...although she had the proper documentation....and held in "a cell like room" for 4 hours. For our purposes she was "missing"...and no one would give us any info. Finally a NYPD officer went thru the red tape...and told us that she was detained.

 

The point is....international travel can be confusing. Be pro-active...and don't assume that the clerks will use "logic and common sense" because they aren't allowed to.

[LHP]

Have not read all the posts so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

but as far as I know, no cruise line decides who can or can not get on a ship.

 

Only US Customs has that power.

 

They did not have to satisfy Carnival's requirements. They had to satisfy US Custom requirements.

 

And wasn't this a 3 day cruise to nowhere which meant the US Customs' requirements would have been less stringent?

 

IF the US Customs Agent messed up, why is this family blaming Carnival?

 

And if the US Customs Agent messed up, why didn't their Travel Agent get on the phone and straighten the Customs Agent out?

[LHP]

Reminds me of some folks who were on our cruise out of New York to Canada.

 

Several couples were not allowed off the ship at TWO Canadian ports because they had traffic violations like a DUI from 20 years ago.....

 

Canada said no.....

 

And because Canada said no...they were not allowed off the ship.

Edited November 2, 2013 by LHP

[LHP]

I also remember a ton of folks that were not allowed to board the Splendor for that 49 day trip to California, because they had failed to obtain Visas (I think from Brazil)...

 

This was not a simple matter of they could not get off the ship in Brazil, they were not allowed on the ship at all.

 

 

Traveling is serious business. And while all the cruise lines list generic requirements that will cover 90% of their passengers, these cruise lines also clearly state that it is the passenger's responsibility to check with their governmental agency for any additional restrictions.

[cherylandtk]

The NC issued birth certificate is proof of parentage and date of birth ONLY. It is not proof of citizenship. And despite the people who think a US issued birth certificate is all that is needed, the regulation actually says 'proof of citizenship' such as a US issued birth certificate showing birth in the US.

 

Since the child was born in Ethiopia, I am quite sure the NC issued birth certificate reflects this. I see it all the time in my line of work, and as one of the other adoptive parents on this thread noted, her certificate itself says 'not for citizenship'.

 

Everyone who says it was a "US issued birth certificate and that is all that is needed, period" is dead wrong. The documentation used must be PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP. To continue to promulgate this incorrect assumption puts future passengers at risk of making a similar mistake. Please stop saying that just because it was issued in NC that was all that was needed.

[ldlewis45]

I work for CBP. Of course, I don't know the particulars, but from what I've read here, it's very likely that the parents did not have all the proper documents to prove the child was a U.S. citizen. There are several reasons I think that:

 

1. A U.S. birth certificate only proves U.S. citizenship if the place of birth was United States soil. If it was outside the U.S., it states that it is not proof of citizenship. The citizen would need a certificate of citizenship in addition to the birth certificate.

 

2. A citizen should not have an LPR card (green card). Citizens are supposed to surrender their LPR card upon receiving citizenship. If they still had the LPR card, either the child was not yet a citizen or they didn't pay attention to the fact that they are supposed to surrender it (which doesn't bode well for them knowing which documents they need to have to prove citizenship). In addition, if the child WAS an LPR, they are supposed to have the actual LPR card with them at all times.

 

3. The parents were traveling with the Ethiopian passport with a U.S. entry visa and a digital copy of the LPR card. Again, that implies that the child was traveling as an Ethiopian citizen, and would therefore be required to have a Bahamian entry visa in his/her passport. If the child did not have a Bahamian entry visa, he/she would not be allowed to board the ship. If the child was a U.S. citizen, they should not have even presented the passport to Carnival.

 

The child is likely a U.S. citizen, but without all of the paperwork to prove it, all the parents were able to prove was Ethiopian citizenship, which meant the child was subject to Bahamian entry requirements that he/she didn't meet. Carnival probably couldn't have allowed them to fast-track the documents to them because they'd need them for the Bahamas, not for return to the United States.

 

Now, again, I don't know the specifics. That is my opinion from what was posted here. But it seems to me that Carnival is just trying to pacify them to make them stop complaining so publicly (and I worked retail often enough that I saw that happen many times, even when the store was not at fault).

Edited November 2, 2013 by ldlewis45

[CI66774]

Have not read all the posts so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

but as far as I know, no cruise line decides who can or can not get on a ship.

 

Only US Customs has that power.

 

They did not have to satisfy Carnival's requirements. They had to satisfy US Custom requirements.

 

And wasn't this a 3 day cruise to nowhere which meant the US Customs' requirements would have been less stringent?

 

IF the US Customs Agent messed up, why is this family blaming Carnival?

 

And if the US Customs Agent messed up, why didn't their Travel Agent get on the phone and straighten the Customs Agent out?

 

You need to read the posts. Even if CBP "messed up," Carnival (IMHO) absolutely should refund the family's money, then take it up with the federal gov't. Under no circumstances (whether it was Carnival's or CBP's mistake) should Carnival be allowed to keep this family's money. When a cruise line relies on the gov't for enforcement and the gov't screws up, the business must make it right. That's the cost of doing business when the gov't is involved.

[LHP]

IF (and I am saying IF because I am not positive this was a cruise to nowhere)

 

IF this was a cruise to nowhere, then there are no Customs agents when you get back.

 

You just walk off the ship.

 

That is why I would think the restrictions would have been less stringent.

 

Sounds like this US Customs agent was not aware it was a cruise to nowhere or it did not dawn on him that no Customs check would be required when they got back.

[LHP]

You need to read the posts. Even if CBP "messed up," Carnival (IMHO) absolutely should refund the family's money, then take it up with the federal gov't. Under no circumstances (whether it was Carnival's or CBP's mistake) should Carnival be allowed to keep this family's money. When a cruise line relies on the gov't for enforcement and the gov't screws up, the business must make it right. That's the cost of doing business when the gov't is involved.

 

Sorry but I disagree.

 

No company is responsible for the actions of a federal agency.

 

Just like no airline is going to override or financially cover the actions of a TSA agent.

 

Now perhaps their travel insurance would cover errors made by CBP....

 

they need to file a claim with their travel insurance.

[ldlewis45]

IF (and I am saying IF because I am not positive this was a cruise to nowhere)

 

IF this was a cruise to nowhere, then there are no Customs agents when you get back.

 

You just walk off the ship.

 

That is why I would think the restrictions would have been less stringent.

 

Sounds like this US Customs agent was not aware it was a cruise to nowhere or it did not dawn on him that no Customs check would be required when they got back.

This was NOT a cruise to nowhere, this was a cruise to the Bahamas, per the parent's blog. Therefore, the child was subject to both U.S. entry requirements AND Bahamian entry requirements.

[MsTabbyKats]

I work for CBP. Of course, I don't know the particulars, but from what I've read here, it's very likely that the parents did not have all the proper documents to prove the child was a U.S. citizen. There are several reasons I think that:

 

1. A U.S. birth certificate only proves U.S. citizenship if the place of birth was United States soil. If it was outside the U.S., it states that it is not proof of citizenship. The citizen would need a certificate of citizenship in addition to the birth certificate.

 

2. A citizen should not have an LPR card (green card). Citizens are supposed to surrender their LPR card upon receiving citizenship. If they still had the LPR card, either the child was not yet a citizen or they didn't pay attention to the fact that they are supposed to surrender it (which doesn't bode well for them knowing which documents they need to have to prove citizenship). In addition, if the child WAS an LPR, they are supposed to have the actual LPR card with them at all times.

 

3. The parents were traveling with the Ethiopian passport with a U.S. entry visa and a digital copy of the LPR card. Again, that implies that the child was traveling as an Ethiopian citizen, and would therefore be required to have a Bahamian entry visa in his/her passport. If the child did not have a Bahamian entry visa, he/she would not be allowed to board the ship. If the child was a U.S. citizen, they should not have even presented the passport to Carnival.

 

The child is likely a U.S. citizen, but without all of the paperwork to prove it, all the parents were able to prove was Ethiopian citizenship, which meant the child was subject to Bahamian entry requirements that he/she didn't meet. Carnival probably couldn't have allowed them to fast-track the documents to them because they'd need them for the Bahamas, not for return to the United States.

 

Now, again, I don't know the specifics. That is my opinion from what was posted here. But it seems to me that Carnival is just trying to pacify them to make them stop complaining so publicly (and I worked retail often enough that I saw that happen many times, even when the store was not at fault).

 

Completely agree with your last line. It's called "the customer is always right"....when we know that the customer is wrong, but it's the only way to get them to shut up. :)

[LHP]

Now I do not have a crystal ball, but I would not be surprised if Carnival offered them some something like a future cruise credit as a show of goodwill even though Carnival did absolutely nothing wrong.

 

But expecting a full refund is unreasonable.

 

Most companies have some goodwill placed into their annual budget.

 

And that is fine, as long as people do not "expect" or "demand" it...that is just an "entitlement" mentality that is destroying the core of our American society.

Edited November 2, 2013 by LHP

[LHP]

This was NOT a cruise to nowhere, this was a cruise to the Bahamas, per the parent's blog. Therefore, the child was subject to both U.S. entry requirements AND Bahamian entry requirements.

 

Thanks....

 

I was thinking the Glory just finished a CTN and I thought this might have been it.

[LargeCornGyro]

Now I do not have a crystal ball, but I would not be surprised if Carnival offered them some something like a future cruise credit as a show of goodwill even though Carnival did absolutely nothing wrong.

 

Huh? Carnival has stated it was someone in their org that called it.

[LargeCornGyro]

Sorry but I disagree.

 

No company is responsible for the actions of a federal agency.

 

Just like no airline is going to override or financially cover the actions of a TSA agent.

 

Now perhaps their travel insurance would cover errors made by CBP....

 

they need to file a claim with their travel insurance.

 

Sounds like no one shared the facts of this case with you.

[LHP]

Huh? Carnival has stated it was someone in their org that called it.

 

I have several friends who are Carnival Reps at ports and Carnival does not make the final decision....US Customs does.

 

You can always go up the food chain.

 

I have heard of way to many stories that Carnival has moved heaven and earth to try to assist people for everything from leaving their documents in checked luggage and giving them to the porter to leaving their documents at home....

 

because the bottom line is that Carnival does not make money when they sell a cabin. Carnival makes money when they get those bodies on a ship.

 

Not to mention the salary that Carnival probably covered of the wait staff who would have been paid by these people.

Edited November 2, 2013 by LHP

[LHP]

I mean let's use some common sense....

 

Carnival can not even allow their own employees on or off a ship without US Customs' permission.

 

How many times have you heard the Cruise Director announce during Debarkation that US Customs is "taking possession" of the ship and if the passengers do not follow US Customs directions, US Customs will shut down Debarkation?

 

I have personally seen that happen.

 

If an area gets to crowded or the passengers do not follow the US Customs directive, I have seen US Customs stop debarkation...more than once actually.

Edited November 2, 2013 by LHP

[Pine Bluff]

Have not read all the posts so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

but as far as I know, no cruise line decides who can or can not get on a ship.

 

Only US Customs has that power.

 

They did not have to satisfy Carnival's requirements. They had to satisfy US Custom requirements.

 

And wasn't this a 3 day cruise to nowhere which meant the US Customs' requirements would have been less stringent?

 

IF the US Customs Agent messed up, why is this family blaming Carnival?

 

And if the US Customs Agent messed up, why didn't their Travel Agent get on the phone and straighten the Customs Agent out?

 

After reading your one person campaign on the CCL Facebook page to besmearch this family, you didn't even have all the facts?

 

Thank God they deleted your threads.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Pine Bluff