The Cruise Experience is changing!...

[Folk Singer]

I just keep looking at value for money compared with what I used to pay and smile

I have it good

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

good attitude. ;)

[ducklite]

They would mind if I posted the actual numbers.

 

The general numbers are already well known throughout the cruise industry.

 

 

Uh huh.

[navybankerteacher]

I receive the daily occupancy figures for the three Seabourn ships every day of the week. Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but they do not match the ones Seabourn sends to me.

I also receive the daily onboard spending figures for the Seabourn ships. Your assumption that people on luxury cruises spend far more onboard is not correct. The high upfront fares cover most of the onboard amenities that are included in the fares.

 

There is indeed a very small market for small luxury ships.

But they will not go bankrupt so long as their owners do not mind losing money on them.

They will also never really flourish as there are just not enough people willing to spend the money to sail them, and they can never make any appreciable profit with the cost and revenue structure they use.

That is my point.

 

So your point is that they lose money, and they will always lose money; but for some reason the owners do not losing money on them.

 

You seem to have a lot of figures, but the conclusion you come to is absurd. The only rational response is that your figures are wrong, or your application of those figures is flawed.

 

Your conclusion is BS.

[Warm Breezes]

I have been on both with Carnival, yes the shorter cruises were more "party/hardy" for sure, (I found that true even on a short celebrity cruise I took) but it is still not the subdued experience I find on Celebrity, Princess, and even RCI; especially RCI's radiance class ships. On Carnival, there is more of a Vegas type atmosphere in the evenings even on 7 day cruises. that "lets party party party" feel every night.

 

but as I already said,there is a product for everyone. I am not "knocking" Carnival. heck,I would still cruise them for the right itinerary. They are just not my first choice as they are not a good fit for me. I just like things more calmer.

 

I have to say I never got the feel on our 5-8 night cruises on Carnival. I wasn't looking for it either since we were sailing and doing things as a family. I have to agree that Princess was more subdued and I was glad we didn't take our teens on that cruise as I thought they might have been bored...like I was.

[momofmeg]

I have to say I never got the feel on our 5-8 night cruises on Carnival. I wasn't looking for it either since we were sailing and doing things as a family. I have to agree that Princess was more subdued and I was glad we didn't take our teens on that cruise as I thought they might have been bored...like I was.

 

Well we are all different-different strokes for different folks.

 

What you feel, you feel, and I suppose for me the same applies. Enjoy your cruises. My 21 days I have spent on Carnival ships is enough for me to know Carnival is not a good fit for me.

 

The way I see it there is a reason Carnival corporation owns Carnival, Holland America, Princess, Cunard, Costa (and I am sure a couple of others I have not remembered) is because they want different lines to attract different areas of the cruising market. As I said, different strokes for different folks.

Edited September 14, 2014 by momofmeg

[swedish weave]

So your point is that they lose money, and they will always lose money; but for some reason the owners do not losing money on them.

 

You seem to have a lot of figures, but the conclusion you come to is absurd. The only rational response is that your figures are wrong, or your application of those figures is flawed.

 

Your conclusion is BS.

 

A little knowledge of history and business practices will support Bruce Muzz comments.

 

Many businesses are kept afloat by owners and/or executives while losing money so the people who are involved can enjoy the lifestyle and luxuries furnished by the creditors. They are in position to walk away with a lot of money and leave creditors and investors holding the bag. Ref - TV show American Greed.

 

Check the history of some of these small luzury lines and you will see that some of the present executives and owners walked away from bankrupt lines and either started or took over other lines and they are still in the business.

 

It would be appreciated if you would refrain from making personal disparaging comments aimed at other posters.

Edited September 14, 2014 by swedish weave

[momofmeg]

Well we are all different-different strokes for different folks.

 

What you feel, you feel, and I suppose for me the same applies. Enjoy your cruises. My 21 days I have spent on Carnival ships is enough for me to know Carnival is not a good fit for me.

 

The way I see it there is a reason Carnival corporation owns Carnival, Holland America, Princess, Cunard, Costa (and I am sure a couple of others I have not remembered) is because they want different lines to attract different areas of the cruising market. As I said, different strokes for different folks.

 

Okay, just to add a bit as I still not quite sure why Warm Breezes does not understand my term "party" for Carnival. I guess warm Breezes thinks I mean something negative or even inappropriate for his children to see? My definition of party is the high energy must be doing something every moment to be happy "feel" of Carnival. Yes it was like that in the evening and even during sea days, with all the silly pool games by the pool on the 7 day Carnival cruises I took.

 

I am sorry, that atmosphere is just not me, I do not enjoy that any more. I liked that in my 40's, I do not anymore.

 

As far as shorter cruise is having a different feel that Warm Breezes mentioned. As I said I agree, and I found on any mainstream line of a short cruise that falls over the weekend. So I try to avoid those. Then you see sometimes inappropriate things in pubic for example, people so wasted that they are loud and boisterous or worse.

 

And warm Breezes what you and your family enjoy whom are much younger than I ( I assume or else you are much more lively 60 somethings than I am) is going to be different. I am not trying to change your mind. I post my opinions to help people who want things quieter and more subdued.

 

Carnival has a market, it just not the best choice for everyone.

[navybankerteacher]

 

It would be appreciated if you would refrain from making personal disparaging comments aimed at other posters.

 

No "personal disparaging comments" were made - I simply questioned the conspiracy theory underlying the contention that unprofitable lines exist, and are kept in money-losing operation by investors who have to be aware that they are losing money.

[swedish weave]

No "personal disparaging comments" were made - I simply questioned the conspiracy theory underlying the contention that unprofitable lines exist, and are kept in money-losing operation by investors who have to be aware that they are losing money.

 

The problem is that the investors don't know they are losing money until it is too late to get out. Some have had their entire life savings depleted by the charlatins who "cook the books", then run !!!!

[CPT Trips]

Let it go . . . :rolleyes:

 

Edited September 14, 2014 by CPT Trips

[barante]

The glass-is-half-full crowd can complain about the deterioration of life, love, education and in any given field. Yes, weren't all those ink pen love notes charming. But in today's world one seldom needs embossed stationary.

 

The problem with this thread is that people posting here -- myself included -- have too much memories and experience with cruising. "Nostalgia is remembering the past with the pain removed." We remember the good old days without acknowledging that some of the newcomers without a comparison basis might actually enjoy what they get. These are their good old days, and they are the future of the cruise industry.

 

Our first four cruises were on Celebrity. That was the line you took your children on to teach proper etiquette and multiple courses. We followed the Mercury and the Zenith, taking the cruises out of Baltimore and then from Jacksonville. Since then we have been on some 30 cruises, on most standard lines (except for Disney) and some not-so (Costa in Asia; MSC trans-Atlantic and Europe).

 

We keep switching between lines. Last year we returned to Carnival after one previous cruise and thought the product was very good. Now we are returning to the RCL after one previous cruise. We expect a splendid experience; different but splendid. Because our cruise experience, in the end, is up to us.

 

The only thing I know is this. We paid less for our junior suite on the forthcoming Grandeur sailing than we paid for an OV on our first Celebrity cruise nearly two decades ago. Amazing.

[swedish weave]

The glass-is-half-full crowd can complain about the deterioration of life, love, education and in any given field. Yes, weren't all those ink pen love notes charming. But in today's world one seldom needs embossed stationary.

 

The problem with this thread is that people posting here -- myself included -- have too much memories and experience with cruising. "Nostalgia is remembering the past with the pain removed." We remember the good old days without acknowledging that some of the newcomers without a comparison basis might actually enjoy what they get. These are their good old days, and they are the future of the cruise industry.

 

Our first four cruises were on Celebrity. That was the line you took your children on to teach proper etiquette and multiple courses. We followed the Mercury and the Zenith, taking the cruises out of Baltimore and then from Jacksonville. Since then we have been on some 30 cruises, on most standard lines (except for Disney) and some not-so (Costa in Asia; MSC trans-Atlantic and Europe).

 

We keep switching between lines. Last year we returned to Carnival after one previous cruise and thought the product was very good. Now we are returning to the RCL after one previous cruise. We expect a splendid experience; different but splendid. Because our cruise experience, in the end, is up to us.

 

The only thing I know is this. We paid less for our junior suite on the forthcoming Grandeur sailing than we paid for an OV on our first Celebrity cruise nearly two decades ago. Amazing.

 

Add to your figures the inflation rate, and you see a much better bargain.

 

If you paid $1000.00 in 1994, the cost of the same product in 2014 would be $1607.62.

[Warm Breezes]

Okay, just to add a bit as I still not quite sure why Warm Breezes does not understand my term "party" for Carnival. I guess warm Breezes thinks I mean something negative or even inappropriate for his children to see? My definition of party is the high energy must be doing something every moment to be happy "feel" of Carnival. Yes it was like that in the evening and even during sea days, with all the silly pool games by the pool on the 7 day Carnival cruises I took.

 

I am sorry, that atmosphere is just not me, I do not enjoy that any more. I liked that in my 40's, I do not anymore.

 

As far as shorter cruise is having a different feel that Warm Breezes mentioned. As I said I agree, and I found on any mainstream line of a short cruise that falls over the weekend. So I try to avoid those. Then you see sometimes inappropriate things in pubic for example, people so wasted that they are loud and boisterous or worse.

 

And warm Breezes what you and your family enjoy whom are much younger than I ( I assume or else you are much more lively 60 somethings than I am) is going to be different. I am not trying to change your mind. I post my opinions to help people who want things quieter and more subdued.

 

Carnival has a market, it just not the best choice for everyone.

 

Mom of Meg....I do get what you are saying. It is your perception of Carnival. I have no problem with your perception...it is just not the same as ours. We are not partiers, we don't stay out drinking and gambling and dancing. In fact we are all normally in bed by 11 pm. We don't do all the trivia and pool games. We do find plenty of time for down time and time to do things as family. What you are describing as Carnival is not my experience on Carnival....Mostly I think because we did not go out searching for those type of things, but family things, which we found. DH and I are in our late 40's with a 17 and 20 year old. We have been sailing CCL for 10 years with our kids. Our perception of Carnival was a family cruise, not a party cruise. That has been our experience.

[sail7seas]

No one needs to defend their opinions or personal choices.

 

I think it fabulous we live in societies that permit us to voice and write our opinions on a public internet forum and also great we have the luxury of choices.

 

Pick what works best for you in this life and explain it to no one unless you wish to.

 

JMO........ :)

[momofmeg]

Mom of Meg....I do get what you are saying. It is your perception of Carnival. I have no problem with your perception...it is just not the same as ours. We are not partiers, we don't stay out drinking and gambling and dancing. In fact we are all normally in bed by 11 pm. We don't do all the trivia and pool games. We do find plenty of time for down time and time to do things as family. What you are describing as Carnival is not my experience on Carnival....Mostly I think because we did not go out searching for those type of things, but family things, which we found. DH and I are in our late 40's with a 17 and 20 year old. We have been sailing CCL for 10 years with our kids. Our perception of Carnival was a family cruise, not a party cruise. That has been our experience.

 

That is just it I never said gambling and drinking, you perceived I meant that. is that what you think partying means drinking and gambling? Heck in my 40's I was not in bed by 11 on Carnival, (more like 2 unless doing an early excursion) but I never gambled or got drunk. T hat is not my lifestyle never was, even in my 20's. I still enjoyed the night life and high energy(dare I say party?) back then. You do not have to be falling down drunk to enjoy late night karaoke or piano bars. At least I don't.

 

Carnival is a good value and if it works for you I am happy for you. However I am far from alone in my definition and most people who have done both Carnival and RCI say their kids prefer RCI because of all the extras RCI has geared toward kids. Personally, I do not like RCI better than Carnival (outside their decor) unless it is radiance class ships, which do not have that much extra for kids and those ships are geared more to adults who want a relaxed atmosphere.

 

Also I never said you could not have a good time on Carnival.There is a (hope you don't gasp) Carnival cruise I am considering out of LA because it goes to Catalina Island. It is a 4 day, but in this case it is that ship's 3 day that goes over the weekend and besides the price is inexpensive enough we can easily book a suite, so I can have my own area to chill in the evenings.

 

BTW, you mentioned Disney. I found them too high energy too. I did enjoy my one cruise with them but have no desire to repeat. The only way I would go again would be if my daughter made me a grandmother. Lol! I feel about Disney as I do about eating at Chuckie Cheeses-those days are over-only a grandchild would get me in there now.

 

If you are truly not interested in any of the high energy(notice I did not say party since you feel party means getting drunk and gambling) on Carnival, then I am sure you would love Celebrity, Princess, and HAL, and find them a better fit. People that do not like them is because they want the high energy party atmosphere. Sure you can make do and have a good time on Carnival but I feel you would enjoy those other lines even more.

 

That is just me. I like to try different things until I find something I really like. Although I have no favorite line, I do prefer some over others.

 

Now if you have tried these other liens and still say Carnival is your preference even though you prefer a relaxed atmosphere, well I guess it works for you.

[Warm Breezes]

That is just it I never said gambling and drinking, you perceived I meant that. is that what you think partying means drinking and gambling? Heck in my 40's I was not in bed by 11 on Carnival, (more like 2 unless doing an early excursion) but I never gambled or got drunk. T hat is not my lifestyle never was, even in my 20's. I still enjoyed the night life and high energy(dare I say party?) back then. You do not have to be falling down drunk to enjoy late night karaoke or piano bars. At least I don't.

 

Carnival is a good value and if it works for you I am happy for you. However I am far from alone in my definition and most people who have done both Carnival and RCI say their kids prefer RCI because of all the extras RCI has geared toward kids. Personally, I do not like RCI better than Carnival (outside their decor) unless it is radiance class ships, which do not have that much extra for kids and those ships are geared more to adults who want a relaxed atmosphere.

 

Also I never said you could not have a good time on Carnival.There is a (hope you don't gasp) Carnival cruise I am considering out of LA because it goes to Catalina Island. It is a 4 day, but in this case it is that ship's 3 day that goes over the weekend and besides the price is inexpensive enough we can easily book a suite, so I can have my own area to chill in the evenings.

 

BTW, you mentioned Disney. I found them too high energy too. I did enjoy my one cruise with them but have no desire to repeat. The only way I would go again would be if my daughter made me a grandmother. Lol! I feel about Disney as I do about eating at Chuckie Cheeses-those days are over-only a grandchild would get me in there now.

 

If you are truly not interested in any of the high energy(notice I did not say party since you feel party means getting drunk and gambling) on Carnival, then I am sure you would love Celebrity, Princess, and HAL, and find them a better fit. People that do not like them is because they want the high energy party atmosphere. Sure you can make do and have a good time on Carnival but I feel you would enjoy those other lines even more.

 

That is just me. I like to try different things until I find something I really like. Although I have no favorite line, I do prefer some over others.

 

Now if you have tried these other liens and still say Carnival is your preference even though you prefer a relaxed atmosphere, well I guess it works for you.

 

Mom of Meg, I do get what you mean by "party". I personally felt that way about our NCL Epic cruise...and gasp like it as much as I like CCL. But it was go go go that we don't do on CCL. I never felt that way about our CCL cruises. BTW I feel exactly the way you do about Disney. I loved it when my kids were little but will not be sailing with them again until we have grandchildren to spoil. As for the other lines you mentioned that we might like because you feel they are more casual and relaxed....well we tried Princess last March and quite frankly we were bored. We preferred the younger vibe on CCL. Our Princess cruise seemed to be mostly snowbirds couples or groups for FL retirement communities. I'd much rather watch young kids sing karaoke than older gentlemen sing "My Way" (repeatedly)....which happened every time we went. Just our preference, but I really don't consider a younger vibe to be a party vibe. Like I said we weren't go go go CCL and we were in bed by 11 on both cruise lines.

[Cruzaholic41]

Carnival is the party line. It always has been and it always will be. Since day 1, their business plan was to cram as many people on to their ships as possible at cheap rates, attracting the beer drinking blue collar crowd. Nothing has changed with them. It's their model, it works for them, and anyone who denies it is only kidding themselves. So I wouldn't say much has changed with Carnival.

 

NCL is also mentioned in this thread. NCL has changed a lot. I remember when NCL was one of the more premier cruise lines - back in the day of the Sunward, on up through the Seaward. Then they went Freestyle, service took a big hit, they lost a lot of loyal customers, and after a failed attempt at running 3 ships in Hawaii and having to rename some ships, NCL is struggling to get back their reputation.

[Folk Singer]

The problem is that the investors don't know they are losing money until it is too late to get out. Some have had their entire life savings depleted by the charlatins who "cook the books", then run !!!!

 

Or in the case of Cruiser's. Take the money and sail off into the Sun Set.:eek::eek:

[Warm Breezes]

Carnival is the party line. It always has been and it always will be. Since day 1, their business plan was to cram as many people on to their ships as possible at cheap rates, attracting the beer drinking blue collar crowd. Nothing has changed with them. It's their model, it works for them, and anyone who denies it is only kidding themselves. So I wouldn't say much has changed with Carnival.

 

NCL is also mentioned in this thread. NCL has changed a lot. I remember when NCL was one of the more premier cruise lines - back in the day of the Sunward, on up through the Seaward. Then they went Freestyle, service took a big hit, they lost a lot of loyal customers, and after a failed attempt at running 3 ships in Hawaii and having to rename some ships, NCL is struggling to get back their reputation.

 

So I guess the thousands of people who sail on it every week as a family cruise are all delusional :confused::rolleyes:. Why introduce Cat in the Hat if they weren't looking to compete with Sponge Bob and Barbie as a family cruise? Why the water works in the middle of the ship if not for the families? Why the advertising directed towards...kids? I think you may be the one missing the boat on this one.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Warm Breezes

[Cruzaholic41]

So I guess the thousands of people who sail on it every week as a family cruise are all delusional :confused::rolleyes:. Why introduce Cat in the Hat if they weren't looking to compete with Sponge Bob and Barbie as a family cruise? Why the water works in the middle of the ship if not for the families? Why the advertising directed towards...kids? I think you may be the one missing the boat on this one.

 

Nope. I'm not missing the boat at all. Nowhere did I say Carnival didn't have kids programs and didn't attract families. I challenge you to show me where I said such a thing.

 

That said, to pretend Carnival isn't the party line of cruise lines is astouding. First of all, their name is CARNIVAL. Second, their motto is THE FUN SHIPS. Third, if you read up on the history of Carnival, you'll see it is a fact they even refer to themselves as the party line, that's the way they've branded themselves since day 1, and the demographic they primarily target is the party crowd. Carnival night clubs stay open later than on other lines. Carnival plays more DJ music than any other line I have sailed. Only on Carnival have I seen rap music played on the lido deck large screen. There is more MDR dancing on Carnival than any other line. Around every corner, there are upbeat activities trying to get people to participate.

 

Like momofmeg said earlier, you seem to be taking the word "party" to mean derogatory. I don't know if there is a bit of insecurity being displayed here or not, but party isn't a bad thing. No one is saying you HAVE TO party when on board. No one is saying you can't relax and you can't avoid the 2 am dance clubs. But what I am saying is it is extremely delusional to pretend there typically isn't more of a party on Carnival than other lines.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Cruzaholic41

[Guest maddycat]

The most dangerous thing to say in any language

 

"We have always done it that way"

 

If companies don't continually re-invent themselves they turn out the same old boring product to someone who has experiences it before. Just look at brands like McDonalds, Burger King, WalMart, Sears/Kmart. They failed to re-invent themselves and now places like Chipolte and CostCo are killing them in sales.

 

Royal is just trying to stay ahead of the game. Some things will turn out well and others will sink and fail. I remember when MTD started to be rolled out and some people on these board made the same type of comments seen above. Anyone who says MTD hasn't been a resounding success is lying. Same type of things were said when Oasis and Allure were rolled out. They are doing so well they decided to build another one with the potential of a 4th.

 

The evolution of this industry has been amazing and it can all be blamed on someone not saying "We've always done it this way"

 

Excellent post...........so very true.

[Beachdude]

That said, to pretend Carnival isn't the party line of cruise lines is astouding. First of all, their name is CARNIVAL. Second, their motto is THE FUN SHIPS. .

 

I disagree. First, fun ship does not correlate to party ship. And Party ship doesn't imply family friendly. I don’t think you will find many who think otherwise. We’ve cruise Carnival 10 times in the last 15 years because they are so family friendly. In fact, we rated them 2nd only to Disney as far as family friendly. Now, yes Carnival does have some party ships that cater more to the party crowd, but that is not their typical cruise ship or typical agenda and those ships don’t market to families.

 

Second, Carnival has spent millions upon millions trying to get rid of their party boat reputation. A Travel Agent friend says Carnival goes out of their way to stay away from the “P” word on their bigger ships.

 

That is not to say Carnival doesn’t have the party reputation, but that is only among folks who haven’t cruise Carnival and it certainly is not being marketed by Carnival as was implied.

 

By the way, I am not a Carnival cheer leader, we have not sailed them since they started their cut backs three years ago.

 

Burt

[k9x8]

Glad I came along AFTER "the change" and know nothing of the days gone by.

 

I knew I wasn't the only one with that point of view.

I posted the following on the Celebrity board, and it seems my premise was mostly misunderstood, especially the reference to being a poor farmer.

 

By the way, two years ago, we shared the Equinox with a group of 500 Canadian dairymen and women. We had a blast with those who also frequented the smoking areas. Point is, would any group of 500 been found on a Med cruise, back in the olden days?

 

My Celebrity post:

 

I have a slightly different perspective, one I have no doubt is shared by others, in general if not in detail.

 

Back when you long-timers were cruising, I couldn't even imagine myself on a cruise ship. That was another world, populated by people like a local man whose family's trans-Atlantic made the society pages. Cruising meant assigned dining times and tables, bingo and shuffleboard, beaded gowns and tuxes. It all seemed so posh and scheduled.

 

Most horrible to contemplate was that tiny room with a tiny window, or worse, a windowless closet. I won't even stay in a hotel room with no balcony or a window that doesn't open. For this old hippie, cruising spelled Vacation Hell.

 

Even had we felt the urge to cruise, we were farmers, dancing just above poverty level.

 

Things changed. We opened a boarding kennel ten years ago, and were finally able to go to Europe, three land trips to Italy and Sicily. We fell in love. A lot of our clients are diehard cruisers and we learned about ports, diverse dining, and balconies. When one couple sent us a postcard from Santorini, DH said, "Let's do it."

 

I was reluctant, but it was his year to choose, and I'd always dreamed of going to Greece (I was a Theater History major, and that included a lot of religious history.)

 

We booked a seven night on the Equinox in AQ. I could endure a week, right? There was Rome to look forward to after the cruise.

 

Oh, mam, was I evervhooked. What I thought would be overwhelming engine noise became the swish, swish of the ship slicing through the swells. What I thought would be snootiness became fun people and personable service, mostly in Blu and at the Sunset Bar. And not once did I feel compelled to play bingo or shuffleboard. When we weren't visiting awesome antiquities, we were somewhere on deck or on our balcony.

 

It's very true, I had nothing to compare it to, but our first cruise was perfect ... for us, so wonderful that we came home and booked the ten night Eastern Med for the next year, and it, too, was perfect. Of course, both cruises had a couple of hiccups, but nothing compared to the misadventures on our land trips.

 

You may be right, Ma Bell, that Celebrity is losing those touches that set it apart from other lines. Our third cruise was seven nights on Splendour of the Seas. Our cabin was very nice. I don't even remember if we had Q-tips, but we did have a coffee maker and the best steward yet. I missed the Sunset Bar, but I found a spot on the top deck, and there was always a bar server passing by when I needed a refill. We did all the ports on our own and had a great meal with local wine on shore. We ate every night in the Windjammer, which has more variety, including MDR selections, than the Oceanview, and great service.

 

On neither line were we interested in shows or nightlife or activities.

 

All this to say, no, I can't compare my cruises to the olden days. Does that make my experience any less valid? There are many more berths to fill than there were twenty years ago, so, in my opinion, Celebrity must appeal to a more diverse demographic. For us, it's all about the ports and being at sea.

 

However, I truly understand and sympathize with those who are disappointed with the gradual erosion of service, amenities, food quality, etc. We had a favorite restaurant, reserved for special occasions. We started noticing small changes, but hung in there for the stuffed olive appetizer available nowhere else. (The idea of first trip to Italy was born while eating those olives.) We could live with smaller portions, higher prices, and a more limited wine list, but when they took that appetizer off the menu, we waved bye-bye.

 

This year we're doing a land trip to Cornwall. I wish I still had those great old hippie clothes.

[jayblue]

Excellent post...........so very true.

 

True. Very true.

 

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Forums mobile app