So you are a newbie...well here is my unsolicited advice

[skittl1321]

I'm back with more of MY unsolicited advise for newbies. And I never insinuated that any or all of my advise is right, wrong, rightside or upside down. It's ONLY MY ADVICE!!

Well of course not, and others are chiming in with their advice.

 

I don't completely agree with all your other points (I'd never tell a waiter I wasn't in a hurry- already dining room meals have lasted almost 3 hours! Though usually it is close to 1.5) but the only thing in this post I disagree with, and would advise a newbie to go the other way with is this:

 

Lastly, if you can avoid it don't do self-assist debark where you will invariably end up with black and blue shins and frayed nerves.

 

Self-assist has added greatly to our cruise enjoyment. It is so much easier and more convenient to carry our own luggage off the ship than to wait for our number to be called and then have to find our luggage in the giant rows. I'm not sure what you are doing to get black and blue shins and frayed nerves. Don't pack what you can't carry, and I don't even know what there is to get nerves about...

[sandij]

A great thread with a lot of good ideas and yes they are just personal opinions but they help. I don't buy FTTP because I don't have to, been platinum for a number of years but I don't think I would have if it had been offered back then. I never like to encourage them to charge for stuff and I recently saw they have upped the price for this service. I do take empty water bottles and have never had a problem with the taste of the water onboard, probably due to having Florida well water in my house. I do take sodas and a couple bottles of something adult. I also only book ship excursions, for my peace of mind that the ship is going to be sitting there if the tour has a problem, and we have had it happen. I try to always use the stairs but my DH uses the elevators, not surprising I sometimes beat him to where we are going. We get free laundry and although I don't like how they use hot water and no fragrance we still get a bag done at least once a week. We too like the large tables for dinner, you meet some really neat people and have a lot to talk about, occasionally they give us a table for two and it's such a waste, we know everything about each other already. We don't leave the balcony door open, it makes the room so humid its hard to sleep, and I understand it will also make your neighbors uncomfortable. Cruising is wonderful and is really what you make of it, so many people seem to like to complain nowadays I wonder why they even bother to go.

[winddawn]

That depends on the ship from my experience. Sometimes it fine, sometimes it kind of gross.

Exactly my thoughts! All the other stuff is pretty much true, but if I had to drink ship's water for a week, they'd be carrying me off on a stretcher. Fifteen bucks or so spent in the Fun Shops pre-cruise for bottled water is money well spent. I'd also add that if you drink more than a few drinks a day, Cheers can be money well spent. Especially if you enjoy indulging on a cruise on drinks you probably wouldn't have at home.

[NightOne]

Exactly my thoughts! All the other stuff is pretty much true, but if I had to drink ship's water for a week, they'd be carrying me off on a stretcher. Fifteen bucks or so spent in the Fun Shops pre-cruise for bottled water is money well spent. I'd also add that if you drink more than a few drinks a day, Cheers can be money well spent. Especially if you enjoy indulging on a cruise on drinks you probably wouldn't have at home.

 

 

What specifically do you think is wrong with the water on the ship? Just curious.

[nybumpkin]

Over the years, we have done a mix of Carnival excursions, independent tours, and just-getting-off-the-boat-and-walking-around. Here's what I do when evaluating what we might want to book:

 

Ship excursions. We will book them (a) if the port time is limited and the tour is likely to be long or (b) the excursion we want is exclusive to Carnival. As an example of (a), back in 2006 we booked a catamaran sail and snorkel through Carnival in Tortola. It was a wonderful tour, sailing across the Drake Sound to Norman Island - but on the way back to Tortola a line became fouled in one of the propellers and we limped back to port. We barely made it back before the scheduled sailing time, but since it was a ship tour the ship would have waited for us if we had been later. I think I would have been frantic if we had been on an independent tour. As an example of (b), last year in Skagway we wanted to do a White Pass and Yukon Railway excursion. Now, you can easily book these on your own, and many do - but we wanted the excursion powered by the steam train. (DH is a train buff, you know, and he REALLY wanted that tour.:p) That excursion was limited to ship tours - half the train was reserved for Carnival Miracle, half for a NCL ship.

 

Independent excursions. There is a lot of information on the "Ports of Call" board about tours. Do your research. If your port time is long, it's pretty easy to book independently. Independent tour operators value their reputation and it's pretty rare that people on such a tour get left behind by the ship. If a tour group does get left behind, the word will get out and affect the tour operator's business. The advantage of one of the independent tour operators is that your group usually is smaller than a ship group. Two years ago when we visited St. Petersburg on Carnival Legend, we booked our two-day tour with a well-regarded tour operator and had an excellent (if very busy) port visit. We had 15 people in a 16-passenger van. We were able to visit all of the tour sights with no problem; however, one of the ship tours missed the Church of the Spilled Blood (the one with the onion domes that screams, "This Is Russia":cool:) because their 50-passeger bus couldn't find a place to park.

 

Just-getting-off-the-boat-and-walking around: Again, you'll want to do some research ahead of time to learn what can be seen within walking distance. Some ports are fairly easy to walk around - Halifax, Nova Scotia is one of my favorite ports for that. Others, not so much. Freeport, for example. You dock in an industrial port area and really can't walk anywhere except the straw market or Senor Frog's right by the ship. Montego Bay is another. You're going to need a taxi to get to a beach.

 

Speaking of research, I think I'm off to the "Ports of Call" board to figure out what we should book in the Dominican Republic, Curacao and Aruba. Three new ports for us....:)

[winddawn]

What specifically do you think is wrong with the water on the ship? Just curious.

I can't stand the taste. Or the smell.

Edited May 12, 2015 by winddawn

[JimAOk1945]

What specifically do you think is wrong with the water on the ship? Just curious.

 

The smell and taste are horrible!

Edited May 12, 2015 by JimAOk1945

[fireofficer5]

Don't drink from the commode:p:p:p:p:p:p

Edited May 12, 2015 by fireofficer5

[AngAndBoys]

Exactly my thoughts! All the other stuff is pretty much true, but if I had to drink ship's water for a week, they'd be carrying me off on a stretcher. Fifteen bucks or so spent in the Fun Shops pre-cruise for bottled water is money well spent. I'd also add that if you drink more than a few drinks a day, Cheers can be money well spent. Especially if you enjoy indulging on a cruise on drinks you probably wouldn't have at home.

 

This is how I handle the water situation too. For a four day cruise, I order 24 bottles from Bon Voyage. I don't like water from the tap much and there is no way I'd haul my own, the whole onboarding process is stressful enough without carrying heavy stuff.

 

I also would not do my own laundry onboard, that's just me, but if I'm on vacation, I don't want to do chores. I'm in the over packing group. Like someone else said, I like lots of choices and pack it all, on hangers, wrapped in dry cleaners plastic. It really cuts down on wrinkling and unpacking is pretty fast since its all hung already. Word to newbies, there are only about 20 hangers in each cabin, not sure if you can get more?

 

I like self assistance disembark. I invested in a good spinner suitcase so it's not bad at all to haul around even though everything but the kitchen sink is in it. I Actually find it more cumbersome to carry a smaller bag containing all my toiletries and stuff I had to keep if I pack up the night before than to just have the giant roller and my purse to contend with. Also, I just don't like the worry of my suitcase gone and what if I need something? And I like to suck out the last bit of fun the last night, so I don't want to think about packing just yet. :D

 

I think newbie advice threads are good things. I found one recently about what to bring and my first time cruiser friends found it very useful. It's always good to know how other people do it. I learned that packing method on this board and pretty much haven't had to iron anything since.

[Cruise life]

Exactly my thoughts! All the other stuff is pretty much true, but if I had to drink ship's water for a week, they'd be carrying me off on a stretcher. Fifteen bucks or so spent in the Fun Shops pre-cruise for bottled water is money well spent. I'd also add that if you drink more than a few drinks a day, Cheers can be money well spent. Especially if you enjoy indulging on a cruise on drinks you probably wouldn't have at home.

 

 

I always indulge on the ship and I have never bought the cheers package. We always check what we spend and what it would have cost and it never adds up. You really need to consider the amount of alcohol the cheers package provides and it truly is an unrecommended amount by all health standards, even a lax one. The water, on the other hand, is worth paying triple for in order to get mineral or even bottled water on board without hauling huge quantities; we always bring a 24 pack in addition to purchasing glass bottled mineral water that is delivered to the room.

[momof3cruisers]

Carnival also has the excursion price match now, too. If you find the same excursion for less money, they'll match it.

 

And while I agree with most of this, I adamantly disagree with the bringing soda/water on board. I drink a lot of water and no matter what ship I've been on, the ships water causes me to swell. There's trace amounts of saltwater in it and for whatever reason, it doesn't do well with my water consumption. I put 24 in a suitcase for a seven day cruise and a 12 pack of soda for my DH. I can't imagine buying a drink card and paying what they charge when I can grab a 12 pack for 3.99 at the supermarket. Waste of money, IMO.

 

We also bring on the wine. My DH brings one and I bring one and have never paid the corkage fee. I do have a rum runner and usually bring on some rum, but end up pouring about 1/4 of it down the drain at the end of the cruise. I buy a few Kiss On The Lips and a few buckets of beer through the week.

 

Same here for almost all of it. The other reason I bring pop on is that I can put it n the fridge and have it cold before pouring it over ice. Otherwise it gets too watered down. My kids will get the Bottomless Bubbles, but not me.

 

We also loved FTTF. To me, getting to sit on our balcony right away was more than worth the money. As for tendering after Plat and Diamond...only if you go down right away. Wait just a bit, go to GS and ask for tendering. They walk you right down to the front of the line.

[sjn911]

A great thread with a lot of good ideas and yes they are just personal opinions but they help. I don't buy FTTP because I don't have to, been platinum for a number of years but I don't think I would have if it had been offered back then. I never like to encourage them to charge for stuff and I recently saw they have upped the price for this service. I do take empty water bottles and have never had a problem with the taste of the water onboard, probably due to having Florida well water in my house. I do take sodas and a couple bottles of something adult. I also only book ship excursions, for my peace of mind that the ship is going to be sitting there if the tour has a problem, and we have had it happen. I try to always use the stairs but my DH uses the elevators, not surprising I sometimes beat him to where we are going. We get free laundry and although I don't like how they use hot water and no fragrance we still get a bag done at least once a week. We too like the large tables for dinner, you meet some really neat people and have a lot to talk about, occasionally they give us a table for two and it's such a waste, we know everything about each other already. We don't leave the balcony door open, it makes the room so humid its hard to sleep, and I understand it will also make your neighbors uncomfortable. Cruising is wonderful and is really what you make of it, so many people seem to like to complain nowadays I wonder why they even bother to go.

Love your way of putting things..I also loved a big table...it has couples solos and traveling mates...all ages from late 40's and up except for traveling folks who were not happy where they were..it always changed a little bit with a strong core who stayed..so as a solo one tired night I could have a blt without being too rude to table or upsetting the apple cart.

 

I think you get better service at a big group table and with a patient team who you show gratitude to as a solo than with my time dining sometimes wanting to eat alone...this is general observation at a crowded budget cruise main dining room. When you are chatting and enjoying new people..the food does not have to be as perfect to me...you are noticing much less...only things that taste wrong I find...it is so true about knowing it already and I found even on my 20's solo trips to Hawaii...after a while even honeymooning couples wanted dinner company...met the neatest people that way and enjoyed so many more places, pools, restaurants and tours and resorts..kind of made my own land cruise...LOL.

Edited May 12, 2015 by sjn911

[quickrate]

Dear Carnival newbie...

 

Read and understand your cruise contract that comes with your ticket. Don't expect the cruise line to pay for broken luggage, lost luggage, spoilt contents.

 

Don't waste your money on FTTF. You are on vacation and your time becomes relative at that point. Arrive at the terminal after 1pm. Lines are usually gone, you can go directly to your room to drop off carryon, lunch is still being served. Who cares if your checked luggage doesn't show up until later. Throw a few necessities into your carry on...you don't need to even change clothes for dinner, and when your luggage arrives it takes 5 minutes to unpack.

 

Don't waste the effort in bringing on soda, water, wine, or smuggling booze. Unless you cruise to become inebriated a few glasses of wine or a drink or two during the day won't break the bank. Liquids on the ship are adequate, ship's water is tasty (bring along a water bottle and fill er up).

 

Ship excursions are expensive...check with the port forums and you can find private excursions at half the price and get some reviews to help you make your decisions.

 

Under pack. Woolite is your friend and remember, nobody gives a darn what you look like, nor will they notice.

 

Do bring sunscreen, a hat, sunglasses, reading material, some cash in small bills, a credit card (don't use debit cards on shore or for your S&S card), bring a cheap camera, don't buy ship's photos, jewelry, artwork, bulk candy.

 

Spend the first afternoon walking the ship, especially the buffet area and lido deck. Read the signs, find out when spaces are open, check to see if there is more than one steam line and note it so you don't get caught up in the "form a line syndrome" at the door.

 

Use the stairs, if you can, and leave the elevators for folks who need it. If you aren't into swimming, find deck areas away from the pool for sunbathing. Bring earplugs or headphones if you aren't into noise.

 

Okay....back with more later.

New cruisers will thank you for these tips. Only a couple of things I disagree on. Do bring wine on as each person is allowed 1 bottle in their carry on so why not? a lot of people do not realize they are allowed this. Also, water is a matter of preference, but I just got off the Glory and all of the ship water tasted like chlorine which i can't stand so I do bring my own water.

Pat

[Warm Breezes]

I'm back with more of MY unsolicited advise for newbies. And I never insinuated that any or all of my advise is right, wrong, rightside or upside down. It's ONLY MY ADVICE!!I don't think anyone said your advise was right or wrong, they just gave an opposite opinion to it.

 

When you meet your wait staff let them know you are pretty low maintenance, aren't in a rush (if you are then you better eat at the buffet), and that their advise is appreciated. Funny thing, the more I converse with my waiters and let them know I'm just on a cruise to have a fun relaxing time the more attention they pay to us and the better our service is.

 

If you aren't traveling with a large group opt to sit at a group table. Some of my best experiences have been with diverse people I would never have gotten to know otherwise....I've never laughed so hard as when I sat with a clan of old home boy rednecks who cracked us all up by pointing out the pretentiousness of our fellow cruisers. Still have life long communication with the snooty rich business owner who viewed life by looking down his very patrician nose. By the end of the week he was handling our teasing with the best of graces. And the best are the quintessential blue collar American families where young teenagers become our old people saviours for the week...run into them on a beach outing and they carry your crap, run to get you drinks, and treat you with a respect that is hard to find in this day and age.I think this is the only one I disagree with in this post. This is personal depending on your own personality type. We prefer a table to ourselves. We cruise to reconnect with each other and not try to interact with strangers. The few times we had to do a group table were very uncomfortable for us and we prefer to enjoy our time on a cruise. Do what is best for you.

 

If you are into entertainment don't expect a Las Vegas review...the entertainment is about on par with a good highschool review. And if you gamble take lots of money....the pay out ratio is pretty much non-existent.

 

Don't sweat the small stuff...if things don't bother you at home don't let them bother you on a cruise. Beds may be hard or soft, neighbors may be quiet or noisey, water pressure is pretty iffy, room service may be quick or slow, weather may be great or horrible. Choose to battle only if the problem could create unsafe or unhealthy conditions.

 

Don't prop open balcony doors (they have a closer on them for a reason), be considerate to your neighbors and don't sneak a smoke, have noisy s*x on your balcony, or send your bawling kids out there for time out.

 

Lastly, if you can avoid it don't do self-assist debark where you will invariably end up with black and blue shins and frayed nerves. Have a good last morning breakfast, have the crew deal with your luggage the last night, and find a nice quiet corner to mellow until they "clear" the ship. Book your flights accordingly, or if you are driving just remember your vacation ends when you pull into your driveway so just take it slow and easy.

 

Have a great trip!!

 

We've never done self-assist so I can't comment on that. We do either make our flights early afternoon or the next day and enjoy another day of vacation.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Warm Breezes

[skittl1321]

Exactly my thoughts! All the other stuff is pretty much true, but if I had to drink ship's water for a week, they'd be carrying me off on a stretcher. Fifteen bucks or so spent in the Fun Shops pre-cruise for bottled water is money well spent. I'd also add that if you drink more than a few drinks a day, Cheers can be money well spent. Especially if you enjoy indulging on a cruise on drinks you probably wouldn't have at home.

 

 

$15 for water???? How much are you buying? You can get a 24 pack for like $5 at walmart/grocery store in pretty much any port.

 

I'd say you need quite a bit more than a few drinks per day to make Cheers "worth it"

[MazziB]

Dear Newbie......

As you can see, everyone has an opinion. Yes, each has an opinion IMO. This is a great site to review and get information. In most times you will agree with the majority. It also gives you insight to why people do what they do.

So my advice to you----- ready everything you can, go have fun and know that you too will do or not do something that someone else likes or doesn't like.

Edited May 12, 2015 by MazziB

[IPlayWithString]

I believe I read somewhere that you'd need to drink at least 6-8 drinks per day to break even with the Cheers program and for some people, that's not an easy task.

 

:;shrugs:: Take it for what it's worth. If you're a big drinker or you really like to lay out in the sun with an adult beverage constantly at the ready, then go for it.

[Blondie40]

Pretty non experience cruiser here, what if time isn't really an issue for me? Is FTTF still worth it? Will be doing excursions through carnival and not really worried about time since we ARE on vacation.

 

While I am not what you would call experienced cruiser either, I really like getting FTTF previously and will get for my upcoming, as soon as available. It is awesome to have your cabin ready for you when you get there, drop off your carryon and start the fun - faster - by not have to lug stuff around as you explore.

 

Personally, I book exursions through carnival because it gives me a comfort level, knowing if there is a delay, I won't be left behind.

 

As for bring soda, I have not done so in the past, but will going forward. I have a diet Mt Dew addiction and they don't have pepsi products. Paid $3.00 for one in port and it was flat.... gotta have my Dew!

[Carnival Cutie]

I drink bottled water at home so why would I change that? Last year I purchased bottled water through Carnival and it worked well. I fly almost exclusively to the ports so bringing water with me is not always feasible. In addition Carnival carries Coke products and I'm a Pepsi drinker so whenever possible I will bring my own. Otherwise, I will pick these things up in port. As for liquor, this year we are sailing from San Juan so I will go to the liquor store at the port and pick up what I want.

 

JMHO.

[Cinders411]

My advice, is to definitely listen to the advice about sea sickness prevention! My first cruise could have become my last due to being sea sick. I did not bring anything because I thought I would not become ill. It hit me the first night at dinner. Throbbing head, queasy stomach..............It was AWFUL! Now I always take Bonine and ginger pills! :p

[Tutontow]

To the OP, I am glad you posted this. Now my two cents.

 

As stated above read and understand the cruise contract.

 

I highly recommend trip insurance. It covers a whole lot more than just a cancelled cruise. Also read and understand the insurance policy.

 

As stated in the OP you can save money booking your own excursions but Carnival will price match and they are responsible for getting you back to the ship before it sails.

 

Just like the reviews on Amazon, if 299 people like something and one person detests it......well you get the idea.

 

Go into your cruise with an open mind and try to be laid back. Things will never be perfect but with the right attitude you will have fun.

 

The vast majority of time if you treat people with a smile and respect they will do the same to you. Keep this in mind when dealing with the shipboard staff.

 

You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

If you do have a situation that needs to be dealt with deal with it when you are on the ship. Nothing can be done about cold food or poor service once you are back home.

 

You can get a wealth of knowledge from cruise critic and the web in general just be sure to take some with a grain of salt.

 

Please keep in mind tips are part of the cost of cruising and for the most part they are very well deserved.

 

Get very familiar with the search function here. Try to use that first and then if you can't find your answer here or elsewhere on the web then ask away.

[ASchaff]

Arrive at the terminal after 1pm. .

 

YES, Please do this:D

 

-Signed,

Someone who is never there later than 10 am.

[ASchaff]

FTTF is a personal opinion thing. Just because you see it as a waste, doesn't mean everyone does. Obviously.

 

The elevators are for whoever wants to use them. There isn't a ship in the fleet that says they are only for those with mobility issues. If I wanna use the elevator, I will.

 

Ship's water is not always tasty.

 

Totally agree but some of the other stuff. Not all of it. I wonder if any newbies will see this ;)

 

You left out 2 things, stay out of the casino and don't play bingo, both are rip offs. Maybe omit those sales as well - more China crud to tote home.

 

My family would disagree. My brother in law won two games of bingo on our last cruise, and I have never lost money in the casino. I don't however encourage gambling.:D

[kteachcruiser52]

All of you will need to do your research and decide what works best for you and your family

Although we no longer need FTTF, I felt it was worth the $50 when we needed it. I loved the short check in line and boarding early. The best thing for us was being able to go directly to our room and drop off our carry-ons before we ate. With our luggage arriving early, I could unpack everything and get our room organized. Only then do I relax and feel our vacation has started. So it is a personal preference.

 

Pop. We do take our Diet Coke. The Diet Coke you can get onboard is warm and you have to pour it over ice. I hate my pop with ice. The room steward keeps our small cooler filled with ice. We can keep 4 bottles in that cooler so we always have cold pop. We also take wine with us. My husband sometimes takes a glass to dinner or the shows or enjoys one on the balcony. The steward will also keep an ice bucket filled with ice to chill your wine.

While they used to keep ice in all rooms, you now have to ask for it. We do give them an extra tip for keeping the ice in our cooler and ice bucket.

[dewke]

I'm back with more of MY unsolicited advise for newbies. And I never insinuated that any or all of my advise is right, wrong, rightside or upside down. It's ONLY MY ADVICE!!

 

When you meet your wait staff let them know you are pretty low maintenance, aren't in a rush (if you are then you better eat at the buffet), and that their advise is appreciated. Funny thing, the more I converse with my waiters and let them know I'm just on a cruise to have a fun relaxing time the more attention they pay to us and the better our service is.

 

If you aren't traveling with a large group opt to sit at a group table. Some of my best experiences have been with diverse people I would never have gotten to know otherwise....I've never laughed so hard as when I sat with a clan of old home boy rednecks who cracked us all up by pointing out the pretentiousness of our fellow cruisers. Still have life long communication with the snooty rich business owner who viewed life by looking down his very patrician nose. By the end of the week he was handling our teasing with the best of graces. And the best are the quintessential blue collar American families where young teenagers become our old people saviours for the week...run into them on a beach outing and they carry your crap, run to get you drinks, and treat you with a respect that is hard to find in this day and age.

 

If you are into entertainment don't expect a Las Vegas review...the entertainment is about on par with a good highschool review. And if you gamble take lots of money....the pay out ratio is pretty much non-existent.

 

Don't sweat the small stuff...if things don't bother you at home don't let them bother you on a cruise. Beds may be hard or soft, neighbors may be quiet or noisey, water pressure is pretty iffy, room service may be quick or slow, weather may be great or horrible. Choose to battle only if the problem could create unsafe or unhealthy conditions.

 

Don't prop open balcony doors (they have a closer on them for a reason), be considerate to your neighbors and don't sneak a smoke, have noisy s*x on your balcony, or send your bawling kids out there for time out.

 

Lastly, if you can avoid it don't do self-assist debark where you will invariably end up with black and blue shins and frayed nerves. Have a good last morning breakfast, have the crew deal with your luggage the last night, and find a nice quiet corner to mellow until they "clear" the ship. Book your flights accordingly, or if you are driving just remember your vacation ends when you pull into your driveway so just take it slow and easy.

 

Have a great trip!!

 

Really it's all about having fun.. I would however add a few things:

 

IMO it's worth bringing bottled water. Depending on where you stop it gets very hot. Having water to drink is important especially with how salty the food on the boat is.

 

On that note - drink water. Lots of it.

 

Only buy the drink packages if you're a moderate to heavy drinker. You'll need to have 7 drinks/day on average to break even.

 

Do buy carnival excursions when it's a long excursion (Mayan ruins in Belize). You'll thank me if you're late getting back.

 

Definitely agree with the tables, or your time dining. Much better than being on a schedule. I'd also suggest the additional restaurants. We ate in Ji-Ji on the Sunshine, and the sushi on the breeze and it was worth it.

 

The entertainment varies boat to boat, but the comedy shows have been pretty good the last few cruises. I haven't been to a big show in a long time.

 

Don't do laundry on vacation. Either pack enough, hit platinum, or have the boat do your laundry. Nobody wants to do chores on vacation.

 

My wife is platinum so we get priority boarding/embarkation/debarkation, and get to drop off our carry-on right away. I like it myself, so I can't blame people for choosing FTTF. Then again, the lines move a lot better than when I first started cruising.

 

The casino can go either way. Slots are a ripoff in any casino. Table games have far better odds and pay out better. Take and spend what you can comfortably afford to lose. Never go into a casino with the expectation of winning.

 

And yes, have fun. We're 4 days out from our CTN and I can't wait... :cool:

Edited May 12, 2015 by dewke