Diving age discrimination

[Stratheden]

There are 3 diving excursions in Bonaire. Two have age limit 15 - 55 yo. The other is 15- 65 yo.

 

Did the OP not read description of the excursion before booking?

[Ricktan]

Being a certified diver who will be over 65 for our Southern Caribbean cruise in 2017 I do empathize. I am intending to dive the A,B,C's. It will be my first dive there. I will need to arrange in advance with an alternate dive operator. I do prefer to book excursions through HAL, but I guess this one will be on my own. I will definitely check with my local dive shop to get things arranged in advance.

 

Thanks OP for highlighting this issue. I have always noted things like weight limits. I will now look carefully for things like age as well.

 

Just an aside, can't a poster type a post with frustration without being castigated. Yes, further research would have identified the limitations for that particular excursion and OP would have been saved the significant disappointment. I agree the level of upset was a bit extreme and was misplaced toward HAL, but ......

 

Dennis

 

 

I think if the OP had posted something to the likes of " just want to give everyone a heads up of something to look for", he would have received more sympathy vs. the attack mode of claiming HAL is discriminating. I looked up the excursions for that port also (someone else had also done this) and all 3 dive excursions very clearly stated that there is both a minium and a max age. If booked online through HAL, not sure how you could miss it. But, had OP taken responsibility for having missed that fact and wanted to be helpful to others to make sure no one else makes the same mistake it would have come across as helpful instead of just sounding negative. I think that is why some of the responses are not so encouraging. JMO.

 

However, OP, I'm sorry that our plans for that day didn't work out for you. Hopefully, you still enjoyed your cruise !

[Culbles]

I am finding that out.

[Lady Chew]

You'll many tours have limitations on them. Alaska strictly enforces a weight limitation on Helicopter and float plane tours. They surcharge if over a given weight.

 

I thought weight limitations in Alaska have to do with safety?, ie, not overloading those small planes & helicopters. When we had our glacier flight (plane) we were all seated according to weight, so the plane would be balanced. Friends of ours who have taken several flights on copters & planes report the same thing.

 

And we did overhear a conversation about someone being denied the plane ride due to his weight.

[ithaca gal]

I agree that the title of the thread may have influenced many posters with regard to their answers to the OP. I sympathize with the OP because it must have been so frustrating to know that he is in good health (maybe better than many a decade or more younger) but that he could not dive through the HAL partnership.

 

However, with the restrictions not being hidden, the OP contributed to his own disappointment. Titling a thread with the word "discrimination" is a flashpoint that was not necessary.

[ithaca gal]

I agree that the title of the thread may have influenced many posters with regard to their answers to the OP. I sympathize with the OP because it must have been so frustrating to know that he is in good health (maybe better than many a decade or more younger) but that he could not dive through the HAL partnership.

 

However, with the restrictions not being hidden, the OP contributed to his own disappointment. Titling a thread with the word "discrimination" is a flashpoint that was not necessary.

 

(OP, I hope you get a chance to dive there through a private company!)

[Culbles]

Age discrimination is a common practice throughout the world. It is illegal in the U.S. and several other 1st world countries, but is perfectly legal in the rest of the world. In many countries you can't even rent a car if you are over 70.

This is unfortunate.

I believe the actual source of the discrimination are the insurance companies that insure activities such as diving.

I am sure that HAL has very little say in these matters. The diving company (or zip line, snorkeling, horseback riding, etc., companies) make these rules because their insurers require them. And it is not illegal, because you are not in the U.S.

Yes, insurance has a lot to do with it but this is a partnership with HAL and Dive Friends Bonaire. I could dive with them if I was not with the ship.

[Boytjie]

I thought weight limitations in Alaska have to do with safety?, ie, not overloading those small planes & helicopters. When we had our glacier flight (plane) we were all seated according to weight, so the plane would be balanced. Friends of ours who have taken several flights on copters & planes report the same thing.

 

And we did overhear a conversation about someone being denied the plane ride due to his weight.

 

I have been on commercial flights on smaller planes where weight distribution was also considered.

[Av8tor]

Not trying to fan the flames here, BUT:

 

HAL allowed him to book the dive even though they had access to his birthdate (and therefore age) but did not cross-check or care. The age wasn't a factor until at the dive shop.

 

Perhaps a simple "slip of the pen" on the dive waiver form while at the dive shop showing an age <65 would have allowed the master diver another day under the sea. Of course, if anything "bad" happened, that could most likely prevent him from trying to get any legal recourse, but those operators/insurers have those waivers "rigged" for their protection anyway, not the diver's protection.

 

And it's not just operators that contract with the cruise lines that are imposing age limits, some independent dive shops have age limitations also, so watch it when you're making independent arrangements.

 

As for the weight limits, those are usually for practical reasons such as not having BCs big enough for those larger size individuals or boat boarding ladders/platforms that can't support the weight...

[Culbles]

Yea I was more sympathetic until I saw that post. Having worked as a dive master for a number of years I understand why they would have both a minimum and maximum age. It helps minimize the risk.

If you are truly a DM then you understand that NO dive certifying agency has an upper age restriction. You also should know that EVERY dive shop has medical/physical waiver forms for participants to fill out and sign prior to being allowed to dive. We didn't even get to the medical/physical forms, just AGE.

[Culbles]

I have been on commercial flights on smaller planes where weight distribution was also considered.

Weight restrictions are not discriminatory. How many boats sink because they are overloaded? It is not a discriminating factor. Safety in itself is not "discriminatory".

[Stratheden]

Both RCI and Princess have the same age limits.

 

Carnival has the 15yo lower age but no upper age. You might be best to cruise on Carnival.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Stratheden

[Culbles]

I agree that the title of the thread may have influenced many posters with regard to their answers to the OP. I sympathize with the OP because it must have been so frustrating to know that he is in good health (maybe better than many a decade or more younger) but that he could not dive through the HAL partnership.

 

However, with the restrictions not being hidden, the OP contributed to his own disappointment. Titling a thread with the word "discrimination" is a flashpoint that was not necessary.

Yes I contributed to my own disappointment in that I did not know of the restrictions until after we had booked the excursions and set sail. Ever tried to change things in the middle of the ocean? I ventured to see if they would overlook the limitation. Well they certainly allowed over weight people to dive because they wouldn't put the customer on the SCALES.

[kazu]

If you are truly a DM then you understand that NO dive certifying agency has an upper age restriction. You also should know that EVERY dive shop has medical/physical waiver forms for participants to fill out and sign prior to being allowed to dive. We didn't even get to the medical/physical forms, just AGE.

 

You might want to change the tone of your posts. It sounds like you are doubting KirkNC's statement and credentials.

 

Kirk is a respected poster on these boards and not known for exaggerating.

 

Perhaps he has more experience than you in foreign ports? Since you were caught off guard and he was not, it would certainly appear so.

[Aquahound]

Yes I contributed to my own disappointment in that I did not know of the restrictions until after we had booked the excursions and set sail. Ever tried to change things in the middle of the ocean?

 

Yes. It's simple. Just go to the excursion desk.

[Culbles]

Maybe not, but the dive companies do.

 

You still refuse to admit the age restriction is clearly posted on the excursion description. Sorry, but this oversight is still your fault.

Yes the age limit is posted. We booked weeks in advance and no the limit is not CLEARLY stated. We noticed the limit after departure when we picked up our excursions package. Then it is too late to make changes.

[TTFromSommersTown]

I agree that the Diving Company has every right to insist that participants abide by their rules, and I am sure that it is to comply with insurance requirements. From previous posts, the age requirements for the diving tours are spelled out in the brochures so why is this a surprise to the OP.

Every where you go there are various age requirements that a large number of people disagree with, the main one that seems to come up time and time again is the minimum age to drink alcohol in the US, which is 21, but it is 18 or 19 in almost any other country in the world.

If you are not willing to abide by the rules of the Country or Tour Provider, then do not go or if you do, do not complain.

[Culbles]

You might want to change the tone of your posts. It sounds like you are doubting KirkNC's statement and credentials.

 

Kirk is a respected poster on these boards and not known for exaggerating.

 

Perhaps he has more experience than you in foreign ports? Since you were caught off guard and he was not, it would certainly appear so.

I am sorry if my TONE is offensive as TONE in a written statement is assumed by the reader. If he/she is a DM then the things I said are true. You take the position that I am a lay person of amateur status which I am not.

[Culbles]

Yes. It's simple. Just go to the excursion desk.

Yep, but that doesn't get you set up with another dive shop. Still waiting for my refund.

[Aquahound]

Yes the age limit is posted. We booked weeks in advance and no the limit is not CLEARLY stated. We noticed the limit after departure when we picked up our excursions package. Then it is too late to make changes.

 

No it isn't too late. Like I said in my last post, all you have to do is go to the excursion desk.

[Culbles]

I agree that the Diving Company has every right to insist that participants abide by their rules, and I am sure that it is to comply with insurance requirements. From previous posts, the age requirements for the diving tours are spelled out in the brochures so why is this a surprise to the OP.

Every where you go there are various age requirements that a large number of people disagree with, the main one that seems to come up time and time again is the minimum age to drink alcohol in the US, which is 21, but it is 18 or 19 in almost any other country in the world.

If you are not willing to abide by the rules of the Country or Tour Provider, then do not go or if you do, do not complain.

You are right and wrong. The ship upholds the USA drinking law (21) even in foreign ports and international waters.

[Culbles]

No it isn't too late. Like I said in my last post, all you have to do is go to the excursion desk.

Again, it doesn't get you set up with another dive shop. That was the only dive shop through HAL. If I had known before hand I could have booked with some friends with another dive shop.

[Culbles]

Both RCI and Princess have the same age limits.

 

Carnival has the 15yo lower age but no upper age. You might be best to cruise on Carnival.

Yes, I am aware of the RCI restrictions.

[Culbles]

Not trying to fan the flames here, BUT:

 

HAL allowed him to book the dive even though they had access to his birthdate (and therefore age) but did not cross-check or care. The age wasn't a factor until at the dive shop.

 

Perhaps a simple "slip of the pen" on the dive waiver form while at the dive shop showing an age <65 would have allowed the master diver another day under the sea. Of course, if anything "bad" happened, that could most likely prevent him from trying to get any legal recourse, but those operators/insurers have those waivers "rigged" for their protection anyway, not the diver's protection.

 

And it's not just operators that contract with the cruise lines that are imposing age limits, some independent dive shops have age limitations also, so watch it when you're making independent arrangements.

 

As for the weight limits, those are usually for practical reasons such as not having BCs big enough for those larger size individuals or boat boarding ladders/platforms that can't support the weight...

Nice post. I could have fudged the birthdate but my C-card has my birthdate on it. And yes there are those medical/physical forms that all divers sign including the "gross negligence" exemption. All divers know this (even the DM [dive master] that posted).

[Boytjie]

Weight restrictions are not discriminatory. How many boats sink because they are overloaded? It is not a discriminating factor. Safety in itself is not "discriminatory".

 

I did not call it discriminatory, I was merely saying that I have come across weight considerations on commercial flights since the other posts were about excursions.