Copy of birth certificates

[salty dingo]

Apparently the rules have changed since my last cruise so I stand corrected.

 

Still, this is another example where the rules do no serve us well. A photocopy does not have the raised seal, and is easy to forge, with basic Photoshop skills. Bad idea, but this is the world we live in now. Make life easier for those who can't do something simple like order an official cert or Passport, and open the door for identity fraud. Make the rest of us less secure.

[nealstuber]

Apparently the rules have changed since my last cruise so I stand corrected.

 

 

 

Still, this is another example where the rules do no serve us well. A photocopy does not have the raised seal, and is easy to forge, with basic Photoshop skills. Bad idea, but this is the world we live in now. Make life easier for those who can't do something simple like order an official cert or Passport, and open the door for identity fraud. Make the rest of us less secure.

 

 

 

How does allowing sailing on a copy of a B/C increase anyone’s risk of identity fraud?

 

Is your concern that someone will use a copy of your B/C to check in for your cruise before you do?

 

Are you worried that someone will use a forged B/C to leave this country and then return to it?

 

I certainly understand idt concerns as I’ve been a victim myself, but I don’t see the concern here.

 

 

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[ray98]

Apparently the rules have changed since my last cruise so I stand corrected.

 

Still, this is another example where the rules do no serve us well. A photocopy does not have the raised seal, and is easy to forge, with basic Photoshop skills. Bad idea, but this is the world we live in now. Make life easier for those who can't do something simple like order an official cert or Passport, and open the door for identity fraud. Make the rest of us less secure.

 

 

 

Raised seals are a thing of the past in most places. The document is being compared to a state issued drivers license that has become more and more secure by the year. In a few years when the enhanced DL transition is over it will replace the need for bringing the BC at all.

[Organized Chaos]

A photocopy does not have the raised seal, and is easy to forge, with basic Photoshop skills.

 

Raised seals are a thing of the past in most places.

I took a photocopy of my birth cert. and this picture...

 

 

They accepted the copy of my birth cert. and didn't even care about the raised seal. ;p

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

[sparks1093]

Apparently the rules have changed since my last cruise so I stand corrected.

 

Still, this is another example where the rules do no serve us well. A photocopy does not have the raised seal, and is easy to forge, with basic Photoshop skills. Bad idea, but this is the world we live in now. Make life easier for those who can't do something simple like order an official cert or Passport, and open the door for identity fraud. Make the rest of us less secure.

 

First, the rules haven't changed since the DHS regulations were published in 2009 or so. Second, DHS (through CBP) vets every single passenger while the cruise is ongoing, including putting everyone's names through a multitude of database checks, which includes verifying documents such as birth certificates. The whole purpose of requiring the documentation is not to protect you from identity fraud, but to protect the US from intrusion by someone who wants to do harm to the nation. DHS found that a US citizen on a closed loop cruise represents a low risk to the national security and that is why the closed loop exception exists. It is hard to imagine someone sneaking into the country, forging a document in order to leave the country, only to turn around 7 days later to sneak back into the country. I'm sure that if someone snuck into the country needed a vacation they would choose one that wouldn't subject them to that much official scrutiny.

[Organized Chaos]

First, the rules haven't changed since the DHS regulations were published in 2009 or so.

DHS rules may not have changed, but Carnival's have. Or at least their wording of the rules have. Two years ago, their FAQ's stated they required a "certified" copy of a birth cert. When I recently saw people saying a photocopy would work, I looked at the FAQ's and was surprised to see the change. It seems as if they've adjusted their wording to fall in line with DHS.

[sparks1093]

DHS rules may not have changed, but Carnival's have. Or at least their wording of the rules have. Two years ago, their FAQ's stated they required a "certified" copy of a birth cert. When I recently saw people saying a photocopy would work, I looked at the FAQ's and was surprised to see the change. It seems as if they've adjusted their wording to fall in line with DHS.

 

Maybe they changed between 2012 the time when you read them, but as I recall the wording has been the same, which is why I presented a photocopy when we boarded Pride the first time in order to kill the debate about what "clear photocopy" means. Obviously that didn't work.:o A certified copy in it's legal definition is a document certified by a government official to be a true copy of an original that is within government control, in short it's what people get when they order their birth certificate and what they consider to be their "original".

[Flip2cruise]

DHS rules may not have changed, but Carnival's have. Or at least their wording of the rules have. Two years ago, their FAQ's stated they required a "certified" copy of a birth cert. When I recently saw people saying a photocopy would work, I looked at the FAQ's and was surprised to see the change. It seems as if they've adjusted their wording to fall in line with DHS.

 

This is a post from 2014, it actually uses the word xerox and says it doesn’t need to be notarized or certified

 

I got this answer message from Carnival. Birth Certificates are ok on closed loop cruises.

 

 

Thank you for contacting us. We appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance.

I have included below identification options for U.S. citizens:

 

Carnival highly recommends that all guests travel with a passport.

 

Cruises that begin and end in the same U.S. port (referred to as a closed-loop cruise)

For cruises that begin and end in the same U.S. port, ALL Guests are required to carry proof of citizenship (such as a birth certificate) and guests 16 years of age and older are required to have a government-issued photo ID. Any of the WHTI-Compliant Documents listed below are also acceptable.

 

Birth Certificate Information

An original Birth Certificate issued by the Department of Health and Vital Statistics

A suitable, quality copy of a Birth Certificate issued by the Department of Health and Vital Statistics

o A clear and readable Xerox copy is acceptable (document does not need to be notarized or certified)

o Birth Certificate Card is acceptable

Photo Identification

A Government-Issued Photo ID. is required of all guests 16 years of age and older. Sources of Photo ID:

Driver's License

Driver's Permit

School/Student I.D. (acceptable for guests 16/17/18 years of age)

Government-Issued identification card (city/state/federal)

 

WHTI-Compliant Documents

Valid U.S. Passport

The Passport Card

Consular Report of Birth Abroad

State Enhanced Driver's Licenses (EDL)

Certificate of U.S. Naturalization and a Government-Issued Photo ID.

Trusted Traveler Program Membership Card - NEXUS Card, SENTRI Card or FAST Card

Native American Indian Tribal Documents with affixed Photo ID

[Organized Chaos]

This is a post from 2014, it actually uses the word xerox and says it doesn’t need to be notarized or certified

Don't know what to tell you, I know what I read. I'm very diligent with my research, especially when we're doing something for the first time. Since it was our first cruise, and we hadn't fully decided if we were going to get passports at the time, I wanted to get it right.

 

I did a little digging of my own. Here's a post from someone in early 2015. We cruised in June, 2015. This person copy/pasted directly from the Carnival FAQ. The red is the CC user's comment and the blue is what they copied from the FAQ:

 

Carnival, however, states

Original or suitable quality copy of a Birth Certificate (Issued by a government agency: state/county/city) and a government issued photo ID if 16 years of age and older.

This is exactly what I remember reading back then. Granted, they did say back then "Original or suitable quality copy," BUT in parenthesis, they stated "Issued by a government agency." This could easily be interpreted as even the copy should be issued by a govt. agency, meaning a certified copy. We weren't going to take any chances, so we went and got certified copies. At some point after that, Carnival changed their wording to say, "A clear, legible copy of a birth certificate that was originally issued by a government agency." Those three words, "that was originally," completely changed the meaning and clarified the original writing. And to go a step further, they have now divided it into two separate bullet points, which helps clarify. One to make note of the original or certified copy and another to make note of the photocopy. I also read several posts from people who had many cruises listed in their forum signatures (so obviously familiar with requirements) who instructed others to get a "certified" copy of their birth certificate. So it wasn't just an isolated misinterpretation. I'm willing to bet Carnival's old wording lead to a lot of confusion and is more than likely why they changed it to what we see today. So instead of continuing this pissing contest, maybe we can at least agree that Carnival's wording was not clear, to say the least.

[sparks1093]

Don't know what to tell you, I know what I read. I'm very diligent with my research, especially when we're doing something for the first time. Since it was our first cruise, and we hadn't fully decided if we were going to get passports at the time, I wanted to get it right.

 

I did a little digging of my own. Here's a post from someone in early 2015. We cruised in June, 2015. This person copy/pasted directly from the Carnival FAQ. The red is the CC user's comment and the blue is what they copied from the FAQ:

 

Carnival, however, states

Original or suitable quality copy of a Birth Certificate (Issued by a government agency: state/county/city) and a government issued photo ID if 16 years of age and older.

This is exactly what I remember reading back then. Granted, they did say back then "Original or suitable quality copy," BUT in parenthesis, they stated "Issued by a government agency." This could easily be interpreted as even the copy should be issued by a govt. agency, meaning a certified copy. We weren't going to take any chances, so we went and got certified copies. At some point after that, Carnival changed their wording to say, "A clear, legible copy of a birth certificate that was originally issued by a government agency." Those three words, "that was originally," completely changed the meaning and clarified the original writing. And to go a step further, they have now divided it into two separate bullet points, which helps clarify. One to make note of the original or certified copy and another to make note of the photocopy. I also read several posts from people who had many cruises listed in their forum signatures (so obviously familiar with requirements) who instructed others to get a "certified" copy of their birth certificate. So it wasn't just an isolated misinterpretation. I'm willing to bet Carnival's old wording lead to a lot of confusion and is more than likely why they changed it to what we see today. So instead of continuing this pissing contest, maybe we can at least agree that Carnival's wording was not clear, to say the least.

 

Yes, that wording could be confusing if one applied the language "issued by a government agency" to the copy instead of the birth certificate. And there was a lot of confusion and debate which again is why I presented a photocopy when I sailed. Of course, there is still a lot of confusion and debate:). For some reason people don't want to accept that yes, it's as easy as putting a birth certificate on a copier and making a copy (likely because they don't realize that CBP will be verifying everything through official databases).

 

(And of course as I mentioned in my first response it is best to bring the original if you can, but it is also helpful to know what alternatives are available since one shouldn't rely on the cruise line staff knowing.)

[Expat Cruise]

This is enough and going nowhere, if one person wants to use passport, use it. Another Original birth certificate, use that have fun, a copy, whatever you think, a note from your friendly expert, or board member, you can try....

 

But like many things in life just because it work once does mean it will work again by no one wants to change or move in this thread. Should be locked and close let people read and make a choice.

[RWolver672]

So you are saying the agents always follow the rules? That never does anyone read the rules different or change them? If you are so sure why don't you guarantee the OP will not have a issue by backing up any loss with your money?

 

I'm sorry but to many times when the rules are crystal clear have I seen them not followed. You want to travel with a copy of a birth certificate great go for it, I would never risk the downside of that choice.

 

So what you are saying is that an agent could also not accept a passport or an original birth certificate if they chose not to follow the rules. They are fully aware of what is allowed and what isn't. Copies are allowed by the rules set up and posted above.

[sparks1093]

This is enough and going nowhere, if one person wants to use passport, use it. Another Original birth certificate, use that have fun, a copy, whatever you think, a note from your friendly expert, or board member, you can try....

 

But like many things in life just because it work once does mean it will work again by no one wants to change or move in this thread. Should be locked and close let people read and make a choice.

 

All well and good, but the OP's friend only has a copy of his/her birth certificate, they have nothing else. So, it's show up at the port with what they have or stay home. I know that if it were me I'd much rather show up with something rather than with nothing at all. Even if one uses a passport it is helpful to know what alternatives are available because ship does happen, even to those who have passports.

 

Read about a lady who lost her passport on the way to the port. Faxed copy of her birth certificate saved her cruise. Read about a fellow that mistakenly grabbed his expired passport. Faxed copy of his birth certificate saved his cruise. Read about a couple who left their passport in their luggage when the porters took it. Cruise line rep told them to have a seat, there is plenty of time to find their luggage and retrieve their passport. They waited several hours and were then told that their luggage was not found after all and their boarding was being denied. At no point were they told that they should try to have their birth certificates sent to the port and had they known this little bit of information then perhaps they could have saved their cruise.

 

And unless the regulations change then, yes, what worked before will work now. That's how things work.

[ray98]

Some people are unable to say " I was wrong and I've learned something". Instead they keep giving the same crap information over and over and then act offended when people point that out.

[Havingfun2010]

I travel a lot, and for every International trip, I buy a bottle of water, after I get through security. Why? Because the rules state you can't bring water on the plane unless it is purchased after security, and carefully checked. Did this dozens of times. So one day, I bought an overpriced bottle of water, in a country just like any other trip, and my water was taken from me. "No water on plane is allowed". But I bought it in the duty free shop. "No water Allowed, see the sign". Now I don't know if it was allowed or not allowed, or it was a person that just was taking it to the extreme, but If I wanted to get on the plane, I was going to hand over my water.

 

Moral of the story is, no matter what the rules are, and how much you want to argue, you can be denied boarding because someone decides on it.

 

A copy of a passport, will speed up getting a replacement, but it won't get you on a plane. I wouldn't travel with "copies" of anything, but it doesn't mean, it won't work, I just won't take the chance.

[Expat Cruise]

I travel a lot, and for every International trip, I buy a bottle of water, after I get through security. Why? Because the rules state you can't bring water on the plane unless it is purchased after security, and carefully checked. Did this dozens of times. So one day, I bought an overpriced bottle of water, in a country just like any other trip, and my water was taken from me. "No water on plane is allowed". But I bought it in the duty free shop. "No water Allowed, see the sign". Now I don't know if it was allowed or not allowed, or it was a person that just was taking it to the extreme, but If I wanted to get on the plane, I was going to hand over my water.

 

Moral of the story is, no matter what the rules are, and how much you want to argue, you can be denied boarding because someone decides on it.

 

A copy of a passport, will speed up getting a replacement, but it won't get you on a plane. I wouldn't travel with "copies" of anything, but it doesn't mean, it won't work, I just won't take the chance.

 

Agreed, Well stated and absolutely what I have found to be true, living and traveling the last 20 years outside the United States.

[sparks1093]

I travel a lot, and for every International trip, I buy a bottle of water, after I get through security. Why? Because the rules state you can't bring water on the plane unless it is purchased after security, and carefully checked. Did this dozens of times. So one day, I bought an overpriced bottle of water, in a country just like any other trip, and my water was taken from me. "No water on plane is allowed". But I bought it in the duty free shop. "No water Allowed, see the sign". Now I don't know if it was allowed or not allowed, or it was a person that just was taking it to the extreme, but If I wanted to get on the plane, I was going to hand over my water.

 

Moral of the story is, no matter what the rules are, and how much you want to argue, you can be denied boarding because someone decides on it.

 

A copy of a passport, will speed up getting a replacement, but it won't get you on a plane. I wouldn't travel with "copies" of anything, but it doesn't mean, it won't work, I just won't take the chance.

 

Yes, sometimes you can get away with doing something that is prohibited and as you point out eventually it will catch up to you. Your analogy breaks down though because you were doing something that wasn't allowed. Using a copy of a birth certificate is allowed. (And no one is saying that anyone has to travel with a copy, but it will do in a pinch and I'd rather travel with a copy than cancel my trip. Of course if you'd rather just cancel your trip that is your choice.)

Edited March 26, 2018 by sparks1093

[nealstuber]

Yes, sometimes you can get away with doing something that is prohibited and as you point out eventually it will catch up to you. Your analogy breaks down though because you were doing something that wasn't allowed. Using a copy of a birth certificate is allowed. (And no one is saying that anyone has to travel with a copy, but it will do in a pinch and I'd rather travel with a copy than cancel my trip. Of course if you'd rather just cancel your trip that is your choice.)

 

 

 

While getting a bottle of water through security is against the rules..Taking a bottle of water on a plane is not usually against the rules as stated on the TSA’s website:

 

There’s enough misinformation on this thread already...

 

Sure it’s conceivable that documentation requirements can change for a particular sailing for some reason, just as for whatever reason bottled water purchased past the check point was not allowed.

 

But I’d like to think with boarding requirements, if there was to be a change, it would be communicated in advance.

 

 

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[sparks1093]

While getting a bottle of water through security is against the rules..Taking a bottle of water on a plane is not usually against the rules as stated on the TSA’s website:

 

 

There’s enough misinformation on this thread already...

 

Sure it’s conceivable that documentation requirements can change for a particular sailing for some reason, just as for whatever reason bottled water purchased past the check point was not allowed.

 

But I’d like to think with boarding requirements, if there was to be a change, it would be communicated in advance.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

I agree that there is enough misinformation on this thread, but I'm not the one coming up with unlikely scenarios and inapt analogies. I can think of no reason why documentation requirements for a particular sailing would change. Whether anyone likes it or not a copy of a birth certificate is legally allowed, that doesn't mean that anyone is required to use it, just means it's a viable option should some choose to use it.

[Havingfun2010]

Yes, sometimes you can get away with doing something that is prohibited and as you point out eventually it will catch up to you. Your analogy breaks down though because you were doing something that wasn't allowed. Using a copy of a birth certificate is allowed. (And no one is saying that anyone has to travel with a copy, but it will do in a pinch and I'd rather travel with a copy than cancel my trip. Of course if you'd rather just cancel your trip that is your choice.)

 

Yes it's allowed. Water purchased in duty free shops are allowed on planes. One time, and one time only, did someone who was security, applied the rules differently. I have bought wine bottles, that they sealed in a security envelope, that I took through security in the USA connecting flight, that they allowed. The point was, that just because it's allowed, you can be denied boarding. No matter how right you are, you are only as right, as the person making the decision.

[Havingfun2010]

I agree that there is enough misinformation on this thread, but I'm not the one coming up with unlikely scenarios and inapt analogies. I can think of no reason why documentation requirements for a particular sailing would change. Whether anyone likes it or not a copy of a birth certificate is legally allowed, that doesn't mean that anyone is required to use it, just means it's a viable option should some choose to use it.

 

Just to spell it out.....It is allowed to bring water on an airplane purchased in a duty free shop, after the security checkpoint. An security agent told me if I wanted to get on the plane, I had to surrender my water. There is no amount of arguing, or presenting rules to the person, that is standing in your way. Just like if someone wants to deny you boarding a ship, because they looked at your copy, and decided it did not look real. So of course you can take your photo copy, and sure, it works most of the time, but I don't want to be that one person that they say no to. Right or wrong, they are in charge, not you.

[sparks1093]

Just to spell it out.....It is allowed to bring water on an airplane purchased in a duty free shop, after the security checkpoint. An security agent told me if I wanted to get on the plane, I had to surrender my water. There is no amount of arguing, or presenting rules to the person, that is standing in your way. Just like if someone wants to deny you boarding a ship, because they looked at your copy, and decided it did not look real. So of course you can take your photo copy, and sure, it works most of the time, but I don't want to be that one person that they say no to. Right or wrong, they are in charge, not you.

 

As I mentioned before that person that is saying "no" has a supervisor and while you and I would both not fight over a bottle of water I, for one, would be insisting on seeing the supervisor, especially knowing that copies are allowed. Again, this isn't an optimal choice but it is a legitimate one and sometimes people don't have a choice (such as OP's friend).

[Organized Chaos]

Expat Cruise, you do have the option to just skip passed this thread. Instead, you complain that it needs to be closed, then keep posting in it.

 

Yes, that wording could be confusing if one applied the language "issued by a government agency" to the copy instead of the birth certificate. And there was a lot of confusion and debate which again is why I presented a photocopy when I sailed. Of course, there is still a lot of confusion and debate:). For some reason people don't want to accept that yes, it's as easy as putting a birth certificate on a copier and making a copy (likely because they don't realize that CBP will be verifying everything through official databases).

 

(And of course as I mentioned in my first response it is best to bring the original if you can, but it is also helpful to know what alternatives are available since one shouldn't rely on the cruise line staff knowing.)

Getting this post in before someone whines to CC that this thread should be locked...if they haven't already. :D

 

I, for one, am glad they clarified their wording. We ended up deciding to get passports back then, but not before we paid for certified birth certs. I'd like to think that I'm no dummy. :confused: When we read Carnival's wording back then, we first thought a photocopy would do just fine, but then read the "issued by a govt. agency" part and thought it meant a certified copy. Fast forward to now and as soon as I read their new wording, there wasn't a doubt in my mind that a photocopy would suffice. If it read this way back then, we could've saved $60 ($20 x 3). At $20/ea., I didn't really want anything to happen to them (lost, torn, wet, whatever) because I didn't want to have to pay for more if we ever needed them. But hey, now that we have them, and we know a photocopy will work, we can just stick a copy in our luggage in case anything happens to our passports **knock on wood**. And if the copy gets ruined, no big deal.

 

As I mentioned before that person that is saying "no" has a supervisor and while you and I would both not fight over a bottle of water I, for one, would be insisting on seeing the supervisor, especially knowing that copies are allowed. Again, this isn't an optimal choice but it is a legitimate one and sometimes people don't have a choice (such as OP's friend).

Agreed. Being denied boarding on a cruise is just a bit different than being denied taking a bottle of water on a plane. If that one agent isn't familiar with the copy rule, and it may cost us boarding, you can be sure I'll find someone who is aware of the rules.

[DaCruiserFromtheATX]

I'm so disappointed. I saw the title of this thread and then immediately went over and popped a big bowl of corn to sit down and watch this birth certificate thread turn into a passport thread. after all of these post it turned into a bringing water onto a plane thread. SMH Now i'm depressed!!!!:D:D:D

[ray98]

A rule is a rule. If you are arguing they can ignore that rule then you might as well argue they don't have to let you board with a certified BS or a passport.