EUROPEAN sailings, tipping, and VAT

[vluvski]

We are cruising the MSC Musica this summer.  I want to better understand the tipping Situation on European Cruises.

I want to hear from People who REALLY know the EUROPEAN cruise market, not just People who want to share their strong opinions about tipping in the US that they have extrapolated to Europe without firsthand knowledge.

Are gratuities "optional" in the same way they are in the US, where basically the cruise lines remove gratuity from the fare to make it appear cheaper, but the workers depend upon this income?  Or are they truly optional, reserved for exceptional Service, or something in between.

 

I want to be very clear: In the USA, gratuities are automatic, but not required.  I would never, ever consider removing gratuity for myself or my children for an US sailing.  The workers depend upon These tips to make a living wage.  The tipping Situation throughout most of Europe is very different, however.  I have lived in Germany for almost 2 years, and I am well Aware that tipping is truly reserved for exceptional Service, and that Service workers are partly compensated with VAT, value added tax, that basically acts as an automatic tip if you want to consider it that way.  I believe this is true throughout most of Europe, including Italy where we depart from.  I must admit, though, that I am not certain about VAT in Grecian ports, and whether the local port laws or the Point of origin laws apply.

[Norwich Cruiser]

28 minutes ago, vluvski said:

We are cruising the MSC Musica this summer.  I want to better understand the tipping Situation on European Cruises.

I want to hear from People who REALLY know the EUROPEAN cruise market, not just People who want to share their strong opinions about tipping in the US that they have extrapolated to Europe without firsthand knowledge.

Are gratuities "optional" in the same way they are in the US, where basically the cruise lines remove gratuity from the fare to make it appear cheaper, but the workers depend upon this income?  Or are they truly optional, reserved for exceptional Service, or something in between.

 

I want to be very clear: In the USA, gratuities are automatic, but not required.  I would never, ever consider removing gratuity for myself or my children for an US sailing.  The workers depend upon These tips to make a living wage.  The tipping Situation throughout most of Europe is very different, however.  I have lived in Germany for almost 2 years, and I am well Aware that tipping is truly reserved for exceptional Service, and that Service workers are partly compensated with VAT, value added tax, that basically acts as an automatic tip if you want to consider it that way.  I believe this is true throughout most of Europe, including Italy where we depart from.  I must admit, though, that I am not certain about VAT in Grecian ports, and whether the local port laws or the Point of origin laws apply.

If you desire to gratuities may be removed on board indeed they are optional and you may tip when who and however you so desire.

We have found they usually show up on your on board account when left on from about day three of the cruise but this of course may vary.

Sorry I cannot really help regarding the VAT I’m never sure how this works on board.

[SirWolf]

1 hour ago, vluvski said:

I have lived in Germany for almost 2 years, and I am well Aware that tipping is truly reserved for exceptional Service, and that Service workers are partly compensated with VAT, value added tax, that basically acts as an automatic tip if you want to consider it that way. 

In Germany the added tax (Umsatzsteuer , formerly known as Mehrwertsteuer, 19% or 7% exempt) goes to the German IRS. No part goes to the service worker and has nothing to do with automatic tip. Umsatzsteuer is plain and simple TAX.

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by SirWolf

[Beamafar]

1 hour ago, vluvski said:

 

1 hour ago, vluvski said:

 

 The tipping Situation throughout most of Europe is very different, however.  I have lived in Germany for almost 2 years, and I am well Aware that tipping is truly reserved for exceptional Service, and that Service workers are partly compensated with VAT, value added tax, that basically acts as an automatic tip if you want to consider it that way.  I believe this is true throughout most of Europe, including Italy where we depart from. 

 

The tipping situation is NOT very different in Europe at all (other than servers are paid a better wage than their US counterparts - but wages are still low relative to cost of living expenses due to the expectation of receiving tips in SOME European countries.  Why Americans think all European countries are the same and operate in the same way is beyond me!).

 

VAT = Value Added TAX!!!!!   It's TAX!  It goes to the Government and does NOT  act as "an automatic tip".  It's the very same thing as your Sales TAX, but it's built into the price (hence "Value ADDED") whereas yours is added at point of sale.

 

 

[vluvski]

Well, thank you Beamafar and SirWolf, for the correction regarding the collection, purpose, and Destination of VAT.

 

You are wondering, Beamafar, why Americans understand it this way.  I cannot speak for all, but the tipping Situation in Germany was explained in that way to me by a native German living in America, an American who previously lived in Germany, and by my professional cultural briefing Team.  the explanations went something like this:  "We generally do not tip in Germany, except to recognize outstanding Service, and even the, the tip is usually applied by rounding up to the nearest €5 or €10, not 18-20% as in the US.  The workers are paid a fair wage, and VAT is built into the menu Price."  Maybe they are connecting VAT to tipping in a circuitous way, since taxes Support the social welfare System?

I once had a Situation, during our house hunting trip, when I rounded my bill up by 2 or 3 €.  The waiter basically blew up at us, exclaiming, "You call this a tip? That is not even worth my time to process."  He then dramatically reset the credit Card Reader, and ran the charges without the tip.  When my husband explained what happened to his German academic advisor in the US, my husband said he had never seen his advisor become so angry.  The advisor insisted that we did things absolutely in line with German behavior, that this waiter was trying to take Advantage of us because he assumed we were typical uninformed tourists.

 

My question has still not been answered at all, though: Do the workers on the ship depend upon the gratuities for a living wage, or are they already compensated fairly with the gratuities structured as a Bonus for great Service, on top of fair pay for their hard work?

[ziggyuk]

There is very little difference between a server in the US or Europe, they do receive a minimum wage which it is not legal for and employer to make up through tips.

 

One thing that is very rare is to tip a bartender when ordering each and every drink, a small tip at the end of the visit, while still rare would be more normal.

 

The minimum wage is still low and a normal tip in europe would be 10-15% not the 20% that is now typical in the US, additionally, servers are on "zero hours contracts", this means they have no guaranteed hours and are called to work when needed, although rate they can potentially go for days without being "required".

 

As Bea, says VAT has nothing to do with tips and is a tax to the government, there is sometimes an optional service charge itemised and added to the bill (usually 15%), while optional I can't imagine angine many people asking for it to be removed. I will however say, I have removed this and replaced it with an equal cash tip when I know the restaurant retains some of the service charge.

 

Also, a cash tip is often appreciated as they normally keep this, some restaurants keep a "handling charge" for credit card tips.

 

The other thing that is different, in the US I understand servers have to declare cash tips and are taxed on the value by the employer, it is different here as servers are supposed to declare their cash tips and their annual tax return or alternatively the government make an estimate of annual expected tips for taxation purposes.

 

Another big difference is you don't normally write the tip amount on the receipt and total it up after payment, normally the server will offer you a chance to add a tip directly to the machine while making initial payment.

 

On board ship, the same applies anywhere in the world, treat works as you would at home, you said you would never remove a tip on a US cruise and the same should apply in Europe.

 

I will add, being in the UK, I probably have added a UK slant to my reply but we are in the Eurozone (for now) and I have experienced similar all over Europe, even those outside the Eurozone.

[ziggyuk]

3 minutes ago, vluvski said:

the explanations went something like this:  "We generally do not tip in Germany, except to recognize outstanding Service, and even the, the tip is usually applied by rounding up to the nearest €5 or €10, not 18-20% as in the US.  The workers are paid a fair wage, and VAT is built into the menu Price."  Maybe they are connecting VAT to tipping in a circuitous way, since taxes Support the social welfare System?

I once had a Situation, during our house hunting trip, when I rounded my bill up by 2 or 3 €.  The waiter basically blew up at us, exclaiming, "You call this a tip? That is not even worth my time to process."  He then dramatically reset the credit Card Reader, and ran the charges without the tip

 

This business of us only rounding up the tip is still widely stated and this was certainly how it was many years ago, many still say they only leave the loose change, I completely disagree with this, times have changed and leaving a good tip is really expected these days whatever others say, they either have thick skins or don't know/care how the servers think of them.

 

The normal these days is to leave between 10% & 15%, personally I would not leave less than £5/€5 even for a very cheap sit down meal which could mount to a 25% tip (but that's just me not the normal).

 

I know someone who had a similar experience to you, he rounded up and left a measly tip and the waiter told him "You should keep that, you obviously need it more than me!".

[vluvski]

1 minute ago, ziggyuk said:

 

many still say they only leave the loose change

Interestingly, we were instructed NEVER to leave loose change on the table.  In Germany, this is considered very rude, basically a deliberate Insult to the waiter.

 

It sounds, though, that we should Keep the gratuity as it is on the cruise, and treat it basically the same as we would in the US.  I wanted to ask, because there was a quite heated discussion on a Facebook Forum where Europeans were absolutely up in arms over the rumors that MSC might make gratuity obligatory ("They might as well just increase the cost of the cruise!"), and the Americans were accusing the Europeans of being cheapskates for considering gratuity optional in the first place.  Obviously I am generalizing here, but that was the gist.

[ziggyuk]

2 minutes ago, vluvski said:

Interestingly, we were instructed NEVER to leave loose change on the table.  In Germany, this is considered very rude, basically a deliberate Insult to the waiter.

 

Mine is more of a UK slant, I'm not aware of this in Germany but it could be the case.

 

I will add one more thing about the culture here, many people simply don't like paying tips and see it as an imported American thing (my parents among them, they would never leave a big tip and would only leave loose change if anything). Servers generally accept there is a core of people who will leave a small/no tip, they don't like it but have to accept it. 

 

I actually know people who pay cash simply so they can leave it on the table and walk out without further communication with the server.

 

These days we use chip and pin to pay, the server will normally your server will bring the machine to the table and hand it to you, the machine will have "Do you wish to add a Gratuity?" on the screen and you enter what you like.

[ziggyuk]

22 minutes ago, vluvski said:

It sounds, though, that we should Keep the gratuity as it is on the cruise, and treat it basically the same as we would in the US.  I wanted to ask, because there was a quite heated discussion on a Facebook Forum where Europeans were absolutely up in arms over the rumors that MSC might make gratuity obligatory ("They might as well just increase the cost of the cruise!"), and the Americans were accusing the Europeans of being cheapskates for considering gratuity optional in the first place.  Obviously I am generalizing here, but that was the gist.

 

There are lots of posts about people removing Gratuities and frankly that is a personal thing and up to them, they will do the same in Europe or the US.

If you do or don't remove gratuities should not be reliant on where in the world you cruise but down to your personal feelings on the subject.

Edited April 11, 2019 by ziggyuk

[vluvski]

5 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

I actually know people who pay cash simply so they can leave it on the table and walk out without further communication with the server.

They must be introverts like me, because this is the only reason I ever pay in cash in the states.  Ha!

Here in Germany, many breweries and bars, mostly the good ones, are still cash only.

[edsareg]

20 minutes ago, vluvski said:

Well, thank you Beamafar and SirWolf, for the correction regarding the collection, purpose, and Destination of VAT.

 

You are wondering, Beamafar, why Americans understand it this way.  I cannot speak for all, but the tipping Situation in Germany was explained in that way to me by a native German living in America, an American who previously lived in Germany, and by my professional cultural briefing Team.  the explanations went something like this:  "We generally do not tip in Germany, except to recognize outstanding Service, and even the, the tip is usually applied by rounding up to the nearest €5 or €10, not 18-20% as in the US.  The workers are paid a fair wage, and VAT is built into the menu Price."  Maybe they are connecting VAT to tipping in a circuitous way, since taxes Support the social welfare System?

I once had a Situation, during our house hunting trip, when I rounded my bill up by 2 or 3 €.  The waiter basically blew up at us, exclaiming, "You call this a tip? That is not even worth my time to process."  He then dramatically reset the credit Card Reader, and ran the charges without the tip.  When my husband explained what happened to his German academic advisor in the US, my husband said he had never seen his advisor become so angry.  The advisor insisted that we did things absolutely in line with German behavior, that this waiter was trying to take Advantage of us because he assumed we were typical uninformed tourists.

 

My question has still not been answered at all, though: Do the workers on the ship depend upon the gratuities for a living wage, or are they already compensated fairly with the gratuities structured as a Bonus for great Service, on top of fair pay for their hard work?

Hi, The whole thing of tipping can be very confusing, Normally crew on Cruise ships are paid a Very low wage, And they do rely on tips to make the pay up to a nearly Living wage. I don't think many of them would chose to leave there families for up to 9 months at a time, Work 12 hr days , 7days a week. The price you pay for you're Cruise should provide the crew with what you and I would class as a LIVING WAGE. But that's not the way they run there business, They give you a price for your Holiday, Then they want you to supplement the Crews pay by adding between $10 and $15 per person per day.  I totally agree with giving tips to all those who you come in contact with. If you think that you're Cabin steward/ Waiter/ or any one else you have had contact with has given you good service why not give them a tip.
But it come's back to the Cruise Company, They know that most  Passengers will carry on with the Auto Tipping,So why should they change the pay system.  As some one who has worked on a Cruise Terminal for 5 yrs., I can assure you that the Crew who look after you would much prefer that they received any tips direct from you, As most of them will never much of   the pooled tips , Which all gets lost in a big Black hole called MSC.
Just a Thought, The CEO of MSC has a personal fortune of around $9.000.000.000. I think that's the right number of  0000.   

[styles27]

We’re sailing on Divina in a couple of weeks...this ship just transitioned from the Caribbean where it spent the winter over to the Mediterranean.  

 

As far as I know the crew will be mostly the same, so unless they get a higher wage when they’re working in the Med, why wouldn’t they depend on the service charge?

 

I’m not being snarky, just trying to understand why some (not you OP) would assume that because they’re working in Europe they may not depend on the tips.  These folks are notoriously under paid.

 

I’m also in favor of the “old” system of tipping where we put cash in an envelope and handed it to each crew member who served us so well throughout our cruise.  (Which we still do...I always bring a pack of Thank You cards with me)

 

I have to admit, having it added to my on board account rubs me the wrong way as we’re putting a lot of trust in the cruise company to actually pass that $$ on to the crew.

 

 

 

[mispi]

4 hours ago, vluvski said:

Well, thank you Beamafar and SirWolf, for the correction regarding the collection, purpose, and Destination of VAT.

 

You are wondering, Beamafar, why Americans understand it this way.  I cannot speak for all, but the tipping Situation in Germany was explained in that way to me by a native German living in America, an American who previously lived in Germany, and by my professional cultural briefing Team.  the explanations went something like this:  "We generally do not tip in Germany, except to recognize outstanding Service, and even the, the tip is usually applied by rounding up to the nearest €5 or €10, not 18-20% as in the US.  The workers are paid a fair wage, and VAT is built into the menu Price."  Maybe they are connecting VAT to tipping in a circuitous way, since taxes Support the social welfare System?

I once had a Situation, during our house hunting trip, when I rounded my bill up by 2 or 3 €.  The waiter basically blew up at us, exclaiming, "You call this a tip? That is not even worth my time to process."  He then dramatically reset the credit Card Reader, and ran the charges without the tip.  When my husband explained what happened to his German academic advisor in the US, my husband said he had never seen his advisor become so angry.  The advisor insisted that we did things absolutely in line with German behavior, that this waiter was trying to take Advantage of us because he assumed we were typical uninformed tourists.

 

My question has still not been answered at all, though: Do the workers on the ship depend upon the gratuities for a living wage, or are they already compensated fairly with the gratuities structured as a Bonus for great Service, on top of fair pay for their hard work?

There are big differences, if you compare EU countries.

 In Slovakia there is possible to get complete 4 course menu for 4,90 €.  / Sorry, in slovak language only /

https://www.penzion-hoffer.sk/stranky/sk/obedne-menu.php?w=1&mesto=Nitra&price=1&prevadzka=10

 - use Google translator for english -

So fifty cents or one  € tip is more or less okay... /that is strange for you ... yes ? / 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by mispi

[edsareg]

2 hours ago, styles27 said:

We’re sailing on Divina in a couple of weeks...this ship just transitioned from the Caribbean where it spent the winter over to the Mediterranean.  

 

As far as I know the crew will be mostly the same, so unless they get a higher wage when they’re working in the Med, why wouldn’t they depend on the service charge?

 

I’m not being snarky, just trying to understand why some (not you OP) would assume that because they’re working in Europe they may not depend on the tips.  These folks are notoriously under paid.

 

I’m also in favor of the “old” system of tipping where we put cash in an envelope and handed it to each crew member who served us so well throughout our cruise.  (Which we still do...I always bring a pack of Thank You cards with me)

 

I have to admit, having it added to my on board account rubs me the wrong way as we’re putting a lot of trust in the cruise company to actually pass that $$ on to the crew.

 

 

 

Hi, I Think you are right about The Old System, It's all down to a personal choice. There are many people who are quite happy to  Pay the Auto tipping, For me I will tip the people I come in touch with. I'm 72 yrs old, I don't use the GYM, SPAR,HAIR DRESSING SALON,KIDS PLAY ROOMS. It's like taking a Taxi, You give the driver a tip , Then the cab company say's but what a bout the Mechanic who service's the cab and the girl who works on the switch board.
There will be many on here that don't agree with me, So be it, It is call Cruise Critic. 

[sommelier79]

I can tell you how it works in Italy, despite life in the ship is a world apart. In Italy tipping is basically illegal, because it is considered as an additional income made to do not pay taxes and cheating. 

In the most turistic locations tipping is used, but mostly happens in the way "take the tip and hide it" without being seen, or pretending to forget the change on the table in the restaurant. Msc recommend to do not tip as "service quotas" will be automatically added but I think you can ask this to be removed, my opinion is that I will tip individually in case, and do not see anything bad in this, maybe because I don't live in Italy anymore. 

[myjillian]

On 4/11/2019 at 7:00 AM, ziggyuk said:

 

Mine is more of a UK slant, I'm not aware of this in Germany but it could be the case.

 

I will add one more thing about the culture here, many people simply don't like paying tips and see it as an imported American thing (my parents among them, they would never leave a big tip and would only leave loose change if anything). Servers generally accept there is a core of people who will leave a small/no tip, they don't like it but have to accept it. 

 

I actually know people who pay cash simply so they can leave it on the table and walk out without further communication with the server.

 

These days we use chip and pin to pay, the server will normally your server will bring the machine to the table and hand it to you, the machine will have "Do you wish to add a Gratuity?" on the screen and you enter what you like.

I have observed that people who tip well are people who worked their way through college by waiting on tables.  I know it's the way with our family.  My husband was never a waiter and I am the one to leave the tip...if it was up to him it would be much less than I leave. All 4 children worked as waiters or bar tenders and they know how to tip for the service rendered🤗

[patrice1]

We live in Lisbon, Portugal and tipping here is expected, although not the 15-20% like the US. In the restaurants we frequent, tips are pooled and issued to the servers by check monthly, which means it's part of their income to be taxed. We always tip, however not in the amount we did in the US, but never less than 5€. On previous US cruises, we always brought singles and tipped $1 each drink order. Some may say it doesn't affect service, but we have found that it does make things easier. YMMV

Edited April 14, 2019 by patrice1