Sightseeing plane missing in Alaska.

[AFNavigator]

4 hours ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Dumb question here, I’m sure, but does ATC have any jurisdiction in Misty Fiords?

ATC would have been in control if the pilot was operating on an IFR clearance.  Considering the low altitude the aircraft was being operated at though, it is almost certain the pilot was operating under visual rules in weather far below VFR minimum visibility requirements.  No information has been stated in this forum whether the ceiling and visibility was above VFR minimums when the flight departed but it certainly appears to not have been on the return leg.

 

Unless some sort of mechanical issue occurred in flight, this tragic accident was totally preventable.  This type of accident is often the result of the "gotta get there itis" mindset where unacceptable risks are taken to try to make flights work.  There is hesitancy from the company to cancel and lose revenue and hesitancy to tell the customer they can't fly.  Picture the Kobe Bryant accident.  Same story--the mindset of "gotta get there no matter what", with the same tragic results as this flight.  So sad.

[syesmar]

Here’s a news feature from an Atlanta news station about mother and daughter (20), Andrea and Rachel McArthur, who were in the crash:  Story

Sincere condolences to the loved ones. Heartbreaking.

Edited August 9, 2021 by syesmar

[idiebabe]

7 hours ago, syesmar said:

Here’s a news feature from an Atlanta news station about mother and daughter (20), Andrea and Rachel McArthur, who were in the crash:  Story

Sincere condolences to the loved ones. Heartbreaking.

Very sad!  😢

[crusinbanjo]

21 hours ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Dumb question here, I’m sure, but does ATC have any jurisdiction in Misty Fiords?

 It depends on the airspace designation.  at Ketchican, around the airport it is Class E, (controlled airspace) but much of it is Class G, (Uncontrolled),  so to fly VFR you would need to have minimum 1 mile visibility, and remain clear of any clouds, (and flying in those conditions is very dicey, even in flat country).  The safe altitude, where you are above obstructions in the fiord area, is anywhere from 3900 ft to 8400 feet depending on where you are.  But in Alaska pilots like to always stay below the clouds.

 

So about ATC, you cannot fly IFR without filing an IFR flight plan and receiving a clearance  from ATC, (you could technically fly IFR without a clearance if you never leave Class G airspace, but then you could not land because the airports are all in Class E or higher airspace).

 

 in IFR conditions, the controllers and your clearance will tell you where to be, how to get there and at what altitude. They are very strict with the rules because it's safety first, always. They will also provide separation service from other aircraft, and guidance to published approaches for landing at airports.

 

I have no particulars on this particular flight, but it sure sounds like the pilot should have canceled the flight, but I also know that weather changes VERY quickly in Alaska and controlled flight into terrain, (crashing), because of diminished visibility is one of the most frequent accidents in Alaska, much more than in the lower 48.  Here's what the AOPA has to say;

 

"Even though the pilots flying for the high-end fishing lodge have instrument ratings and the airplanes are IFR equipped, they seldom fly in, or above, clouds. Pilots are taught to maintain visual contact with the ground at all times, and to follow rivers if necessary over the lowest possible elevations. Almost all the airspace in that area is Class G, which requires just one mile of visibility while remaining clear of the clouds.

And clouds are a nearly constant companion, especially during the summer when rain, low ceilings, and fog are common near the cold ocean waters."

Edited August 9, 2021 by crusinbanjo

[syesmar]

Here are news stories on Janet Kroll, who was on the plane.

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20210808/mount-prospect-woman-among-those-killed-in-alaska-plane-crash

 

https://www.journal-topics.com/articles/former-mount-prospect-resident-dies-in-alaska-plane-crash/

 

Heartfelt condolences to her loved ones.

Edited August 10, 2021 by syesmar

[cedarbear]

On 8/9/2021 at 12:45 AM, AFNavigator said:

ATC would have been in control if the pilot was operating on an IFR clearance.  Considering the low altitude the aircraft was being operated at though, it is almost certain the pilot was operating under visual rules in weather far below VFR minimum visibility requirements.  No information has been stated in this forum whether the ceiling and visibility was above VFR minimums when the flight departed but it certainly appears to not have been on the return leg.

 

Unless some sort of mechanical issue occurred in flight, this tragic accident was totally preventable.  This type of accident is often the result of the "gotta get there itis" mindset where unacceptable risks are taken to try to make flights work.  There is hesitancy from the company to cancel and lose revenue and hesitancy to tell the customer they can't fly.  Picture the Kobe Bryant accident.  Same story--the mindset of "gotta get there no matter what", with the same tragic results as this flight.  So sad.

There's a reason it's named 'Misty Fjords'...it's a maze of vertical rock and trees.

[DaveOKC]

I am not a pilot, but have been on many small planes of this size for work and I have to say that 900 feet is very low and I sure would never fly in those conditions.  I wonder if HAL had any of the same excursions going on the same day and time????

 

[idiebabe]

19 minutes ago, DaveOKC said:

I am not a pilot, but have been on many small planes of this size for work and I have to say that 900 feet is very low and I sure would never fly in those conditions.  I wonder if HAL had any of the same excursions going on the same day and time????

 

I don't think so but not 100% sure.  We were on the Week before and they cancelled the Floatplane Bear Viewing Excursion shortly after Excursions posted for our Cruise.  I don't remember seeing any others listed and some other Tours were also cancelled shortly after Posting them for "Operational Reasons".  I don't believe they had enough time  or Workers to get them up and going since Season so short.  Many of the Pilots don't live in AK.  One of our Roll Call members had theirs Cancelled that day due to weather issues and used same Company.  The Pilot decided to turn around because of the Weather conditions.

[idiebabe]

6 hours ago, syesmar said:

Here are news stories on Janet Kroll, who was on the plane.

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20210808/mount-prospect-woman-among-those-killed-in-alaska-plane-crash

 

https://www.journal-topics.com/articles/former-mount-prospect-resident-dies-in-alaska-plane-crash/

 

Heartfelt condolences to her loved ones.

This is so very sad for all of them and their Families.  The Mother and Daughter went on a "Girl's Trip" before School started up.  The Daughter went to Coastal Carolina University which is about 10 minutes  from us.  😢

[SeaHunt]

On 8/9/2021 at 7:52 AM, syesmar said:

Here’s a news feature from an Atlanta news station about mother and daughter (20), Andrea and Rachel McArthur, who were in the crash:  Story

Sincere condolences to the loved ones. Heartbreaking.

 

The article says "Andrea was a flight attendant with Delta for over 30 years" - this struck me when imagining the number of flights she took over all those years and then to have this happen. Many prayers to all and to their families.

[Torquer]

Juan Browne who is a pilot for a major US airline, who does the Blancolirio Chanel on Youtube, just released an excellent video report on the crash along with his insights.  He strongly emphasizes the problems with controlled flight into terrain crashes on flightseeing flights.  BTW, in addition to plane crashes, his channel covers many other types of disasters and is well worth exploring.  The video is at: