New to Cunard and I have a few questions

[ballroom-cruisers]

1 hour ago, WestonOne said:

I am sure it varies a great deal, but on the short trip I have just been on, there were perhaps 50 couples went along to the "White Waltz" practice in the morning.  For the Gala itself, there were probably a maximum of six couples on the floor during the hour I stayed, who were clearly all highly experienced.  And, like it or not, that was enough to discourage any of the beginners who had gone to the class.  

I don't know how you solve this one, and obviously the experienced people loved the opportunity to dance well, but like it or not that was discouraging others from attempting it.

 

There is certainly a way to make it work - it is not rocket science.  For highly experienced couples on the dance floor, the 'bad' ones will blast their way round the floor oblivious to all other dancers, and will 'do their routines' no matter what - they are inconsiderate and selfish. On the other hand the 'good' experienced dancers will be adaptable and flexible, and although they will have many advanced routines, they will change on the fly as they move across the floor, and if their path would cause a problem for others they will change direction, change the figures they do, and not conflict with anyone. The world champions will of course be  able to do elaborate and impressive choreography, but they are also able to dance on a social floor such as on the Queen's Room floor, and not cause anyone a problem - if they have space they will dance impressively, but if it is busy they will moderate their dancing accordingly.  Then there are the less experienced but not beginner dancers, and they may be less flexible since they are not adept at floorcraft - so they simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be able to adapt like the best couples - so the top couples will make way to let those who really aren't able to adapt move anti-clockwise around the floor. But even those medium experience dancers who are less flexible, should still be able to change their path enough that they can overtake the really inexperienced couples, who, if they are doing the right thing, as beginners, will be staying close to the edge of the floor as they move anti-clockwise around the room. i.e. there is the slow' lane right next to the edge, and the overtaking lane on the inside of the anti-clockwise circuit. So it all is so dependent on dancers at every level knowing what they should be doing to accommodate the other level dancers in the room. So it should be possible for dancers at all levels to be  on the floor together, but only if everyone is being understanding and knows the rules.  Sadly there will be advanced selfish couples who don't follow these rules - which is why it so often  doesn't work for beginners. On many occasions when I was on our last cruise in July a reasonable number of experienced couples were in the floor at the same time as a few very early beginners (one couple had only started dancing on that cruise!). Yes with the experienced couples being considerate and adaptable everyone was able to enjoy their time on the floor simultaneously.  On the other hand some dances, such as Viennese Waltz need a high level of experience to dance that at all, and if inexperienced dancers get on the floor then it quickly becomes impossible for the flow around the room to continue. In some countries dancers are not even allowed to train to do the Viennese Waltz unless they already have demonstrated ability in all the other ballroom dances first!

Edited August 15, 2022 by ballroom-cruisers
typo

[WestonOne]

7 minutes ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

 

There is certainly a way to make it work - it is not rocket science.... 

 

I think that is starting too late in the whole scenario.  By 'making it work' I mean encouraging the beginners and those lacking confidence onto the floor at all. 

Once they are on the floor, yes, good dancers will accommodate them.  But how to get the beginners  on in the first place?  That's the problem.  

Edited August 15, 2022 by WestonOne

[ballroom-cruisers]

6 minutes ago, WestonOne said:

I think that is starting too late in the whole scenario.  By 'making it work' I mean encouraging the beginners and those lacking confidence onto the floor in the first place.  

Once they are on the floor, yes, good dancers will accommodate them.  But how to get the beginners  on in the first place?  That's the problem.  

 

It is a matter of confidence. I well remember being a beginner and being 'terrified' to get on the floor along with all the super experienced others - but we said to ourselves - we have to bite the bullet, and we should not worry that anyone might watch our meagre attempts at stepping around the floor - you have to start somewhere!  So it means every beginner has to make that first step, and summon up the courage to do it. After all if you don't you never will join the throng.  It is a bit like driving - you have to make the decision at some point to get onto a busy road even when you have little experience - you may be a learner but you need that first step of courage! Oh and the good experienced dancers will indeed offer encouragement and support for those starting on their dance journey - after all every experienced dancer was a beginner in the past!

Edited August 15, 2022 by ballroom-cruisers

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, WestonOne said:

 For the Gala itself, there were probably a maximum of six couples on the floor during the hour I stayed, who were clearly all highly experienced.  And, like it or not, that was enough to discourage any of the beginners who had gone to the class.  
 

 

Ballroom dancing is one of great traditions on Cunard. However one wonders how long before Cunard notice the very small numbers on dance floor. Expect they already have.  There must be an internal debate between those that believe that the PR value outweighs the lack of participation. Versus those that say we need something that appeals to more people. 

[PORT ROYAL]

1 minute ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

Ballroom dancing is one of great traditions on Cunard. However one wonders how long before Cunard notice the very small numbers on dance floor. Expect they already have.  There must be an internal debate between those that believe that the PR value outweighs the lack of participation. Versus those that say we need something that appeals to more people. 

100% casual, fast food outlets, dogems and water slides, etc., etc..

[WestonOne]

8 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

Ballroom dancing is one of great traditions on Cunard. However one wonders how long before Cunard notice the very small numbers on dance floor. Expect they already have.  There must be an internal debate between those that believe that the PR value outweighs the lack of participation. Versus those that say we need something that appeals to more people. 

It is odd, isn't it?  As I say, there were something like 50 couples for the morning practice, so there were plenty of people who wanted to take part in it.   But the current 'set up' does not encourage them. 

Perhaps something like the first half hour of the Gala being for beginners only could be worth a try.  
 

Edited August 15, 2022 by WestonOne

[ballroom-cruisers]

15 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

Ballroom dancing is one of great traditions on Cunard. However one wonders how long before Cunard notice the very small numbers on dance floor. Expect they already have.  There must be an internal debate between those that believe that the PR value outweighs the lack of participation. Versus those that say we need something that appeals to more people. 

 

Something that is very often forgotten is that a significant number of people settle into their seats at a table in the Queen's Room, order their drinks, and enjoy the entire evening watching the dancers across the various difference dances.  People have regularly come up to us and said that watching the dancing is the way they love to be entertained on a cruise.and don't even go to the theatre. Several people told me that they are not dancers but spend every evening enjoying a drink in the ballroom and watching the dancing......  so it is not 'just' the dancers in there. Also various people have told me that if they could not come to the Queen's Room and watch the ballroom dancing then they would go on other cruise lines instead, and it was the unique 'entertainment' that Cunard had on their voyages that kept them coming back to Cunard voyages.  That is one thing that seems to regularly escape the notice of a lot of people.

Edited August 15, 2022 by ballroom-cruisers
Add sentence

[ballroom-cruisers]

11 minutes ago, WestonOne said:

It is odd, isn't it?  As I say, there were something like 50 couples for the morning practice, so there were plenty of people who wanted to take part in it.   But the current 'set up' does not encourage them. 
 

 Not odd at all - a lot of people would like to start learning to dance, and do indeed go to the dance classes - but don't yet have the confidence to get on the floor during the real 'live' dancing - it is one thing to learn a few basic steps, and quite another to make that happen in time to the  music with other experienced dancers on the floor until you have had a chance to gain some experience. Some fraction of people who have been to the dance classes on board, will then go back home, join a local ballroom dance class near home, learn more steps, and go to their local  'practice dances' designed specifically for couples to gain that initial experience and confidence - then they can come back on board and join in on the floor in the evenings in the Queen's Room, as well as go to the dance classes in the daytime.

[Tonopah]

On our first TA in 2018 we were absolute beginner dancers. We were welcomed to the floor by the more experienced. One couple was rude and pushy - not just to us but to everyone. They shoved their way diagonally across the floor, not going with the flow of dance, not paying attention to other dancers. We now have nearly 5 years of dance lessons under our belts and are so looking forward to dancing in the Queens Room again. We hope to be a couple to encourage newbies to the floor. We’ve recently begun learning Viennese Waltz as we’ve reached a level where we can “keep up with the big guns”. 

[ballroom-cruisers]

1 minute ago, Tonopah said:

On our first TA in 2018 we were absolute beginner dancers. We were welcomed to the floor by the more experienced. One couple was rude and pushy - not just to us but to everyone. They shoved their way diagonally across the floor, not going with the flow of dance, not paying attention to other dancers. We now have nearly 5 years of dance lessons under our belts and are so looking forward to dancing in the Queens Room again. We hope to be a couple to encourage newbies to the floor. We’ve recently begun learning Viennese Waltz as we’ve reached a level where we can “keep up with the big guns”. 

 

Very nice to hear - and also that you are one of the couples who is considerate and welcoming to the less experienced couples. Voyages do vary - some have a lovely atmosphere in the Queen's Room, where everyone gets on well and get to know each other as the voyage proceeds - but unfortunately there are also some voyages where a few who are not considerate spoil the atmosphere for the others.

[D&N]

 

 

Twice we found ourselves alone for first dance of night. Hopefully because others wanted to watch, rather than us scaring them off. First time might have had something to do with my wife's "very" little black dress! 😂  There were lots of good dancers onboard and we weren't taking up much space and doing fairly basic steps. But I'm always watching; If I see folk approaching the floor I dance well clear of where they might want to start.

 

We don't do much sequence, and I'm not familiar with "White Waltz". We probably wouldn't have attended the morning practice. But with only 6 couples on the floor we usually join in watching those either side of us to learn as it goes along. There must have been plenty of space on the floor.

 

One Gala Night, the floor was full; A German male couple joined the floor. They were impeccably dressed in slate grey tux suits and adopted a competition hold as they started to dance. I saw them set off and quickly decided that we would stay well clear of them on safety grounds. They left a trail of open mouthed folk all around the dance floor. Their posture and steps were superb but unfortunately they had zero floor-craft.

Talking to them later it transpired they'd done some competition dancing in Germany and it seems to be acceptable to collide with other couples on the floor in that setting. We did actually watch a local competition in a town we visited many years ago and wondered why those crashing were not being marked down. Thankfully on QM2 they were the exception to the rule.

 

Like @ballroom-cruisers we were lucky enough in our early years that our teacher ran evenings where those in their 2nd season (they had 3 intakes per year), were encouraged to join in and more experienced dancers were not allowed to intimidate you

[ballroom-cruisers]

The sequence dances are much easier for people to learn than the International Ballroom and Latin dances, and easier to execute, as they are generally only 16 bars of steps repeated until the music ends, and since all couples are doing exactly the same steps at the same time, floorcraft is not necessary for sequence dances.  It also means that no variation happens in the steps, and it very much, rote learning, and then doing the same little routine time after time during the three minutes of so of usually the exact same piece of music for each sequence dance.  I don't remember any sequence dance called the White Waltz, but there is a popular sequence dance called the White City Waltz which is done across the UK.  Only a few countries do sequence dancing, the primary ones being the UK and Australia. Most other countries have the ten International Ballroom and Latin dances as the primary ballroom actions that most people learn. Occasionally more experienced ballroom dancers will do sequence dances to different pieces of music to the standard piece, and the also try to dance them with more correct technique, which makes them look more elaborate.  Also one thing to note is that the Latin sequence dances are often danced starting on beat 1, even though they are written to start on beat 2 which is the way Latin dances best link to the music. The top sequence dance champions always dance Latin sequence dances on the 2 though.

Edited August 15, 2022 by ballroom-cruisers
typo

[Windsurfboy]

45 minutes ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

 

Something that is very often forgotten is that a significant number of people settle into their seats at a table in the Queen's Room, order their drinks, and enjoy the entire evening watching the dancers across the various difference dances.  People have regularly come up to us and said that watching the dancing is the way they love to be entertained on a cruise.and don't even go to the theatre. Several people told me that they are not dancers but spend every evening enjoying a drink in the ballroom and watching the dancing......  so it is not 'just' the dancers in there. Also various people have told me that if they could not come to the Queen's Room and watch the ballroom dancing then they would go on other cruise lines instead, and it was the unique 'entertainment' that Cunard had on their voyages that kept them coming back to Cunard voyages.  That is one thing that seems to regularly escape the notice of a lot of people.

 

Thanks for a considered reply, I  suppose  Cunard can and do simply look at takings from Queens room "bar" as a proxy for how many people enjoy the entertainment as a whole whether participating or watching. 

 

58 minutes ago, PORT ROYAL said:

100% casual, fast food outlets, dogems and water slides, etc., etc..

 

Great idea an indoor water slide and swim up bar, good excuse to don swimwear indoors, or a wet tuxedo competition 

[ballroom-cruisers]

Sadly the Queen's Room doesn't have a bar!  On QM2 the nearest is that in G32, and the other two ships you have to go out, and down the corridor to order a drink, unless you can grab the attention of one of the limited number of waiters who do their best to serve everyone in the Queen's Room, which sometimes is very difficult for them especially when it is busy just after the theatre performance ends, for example.

[D&N]

16 minutes ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

... as they are generally only 16 bars of steps repeated until the music ends, ...... .... and it very much, rote learning ......

And there lies my problem! Depending on the complexity, it might take me the full 3 minutes to memorise the sequence.

Whereas with freestyle I simply need to do whatever comes into my head that gets us in and out of corners and between other dancers, without coming into contact with anyone.

I found White City Waltz on Youtube, and White Heather as well. They weren't danced at any general dancing evenings in West Central Scotland that we attended when we lived there, but may have been at specialist sequence groups.

[ballroom-cruisers]

There are about 15 to 20 of the more popular sequence dances, that get played across many parts of the UK - White City Waltz, Katherine Waltz, Rumba One, Balmoral Blues, Cindy Swing, Sally Anne Cha Cha, and the ever popular Saunter Together or Mayfair Quickstep, and you will see those at the early sequence dance sessions that are sometimes organised at lunchtime or 5pm on voyages.  The sequence dance aficionados  bring out half a dozen new ones every month, and many are 'done' at a limited number of places for a month or two before they are then never done again.  But there are those who enjoy doing the popular ones on a regular basis.  Like you we are freestyle enthusiasts though.

[WestonOne]

I suppose I should declare my position, somewhat.  I would certainly call myself a beginner, but have been having a mixture of private and group ballroom lessons 'on land', starting as we came out of the final covid restrictions,   Coincidentally, the male instructor used to be on Cunard as an instructor and to give exhibition dances.  Probably the single biggest reason for the lessons was to decide what dances were 'safe' for my wife who has had both hips and both knees replaced.  Her movement is pretty good considering but samba hip movements, for example, would be very unwise.

But I do feel there is a strong barrier in how ballroom is presented.   " Some fraction of people who have been to the dance classes on board, will then go back home, join a local ballroom dance class near home, learn more steps, and go to their local  'practice dances' designed specifically for couples to gain that initial experience and confidence".  Yes, ok.  All that to gain that initial experience? And what about the rest (what, 90% perhaps)?  How are they to be encouraged?  Especially while they are still on the ship?

Let me contrast that with my experience with another style of dancing.  I was a student and my ex-flatmate had gone to do his Master's in Oxford.   Every Mayday there is a big procession passing Magdalen Tower and he had joined a traditional dance team which was part of the procession.  "By the way", he said to me, "You are in it."  So there was I, dancing along in front of thousands of tourists, based mainly on vague memories from primary school.  Afterwards his dance group and I went to the college green and spent something like 8 hours doing various dances, some just about possible for me, others well outside my ability.  Most of these dances relied on all 8 (or whatever) being properly positioned at all times, frequently moving independently, and some with four or five  32 bar verses which differed every time, so there was a great deal of my being yanked around.   After that, I did go home and join a dance team.  As it was part of the University, every year we had to introduce and teach a new batch of novices.

I am quite involved with a whole range of dancing.  Very beginners ballroom, as I say.  English traditional (and to a lesser extent Scottish and Irish.)  Playford and Apted (roughly, 17c dance)  I am also a patron of one of the touring ballet companies in the UK.   

So I like to encourage all forms of dance, including ballroom.  I would far rather beginners took part and made a mess of things with their mistakes ignored, than that they did not take part for fear of making a fool of themselves.  I have encountered a similar barrier with a Morris Dance side, where I was told after 5 years practice I might be good enough to appear in public.  (Most sides are not like that!) 

So I get back - eventually - to the point.  What can be done to encourage beginners that is not already being done, while they are on the ship? 

 

[ballroom-cruisers]

Have you chatted to some of the more experienced dancers on board?  You might find more of a welcome than you think!  Yes, some are standoffish, but many or most are happy to encourage early dancers, and maybe even give a few hints and tips. Yes ballroom and Latin dancing is something that needs both being well taught, as well as lots of practice (probably at least ten times the number of hours of practice compared to the number of hours being taught to get proficient). At the end of the day someone might like football, and they may learn a bit about it at school or a sports club, but at the end of the day you have to kick a ball around every day getting better at moving the ball around or getting it to shoot off in the intended direction. The big difference with dancing, is that you have to learn to do it when closely coupled to your partner, and that takes even more practice than learning to kick a ball, or swim on your own in a pool.  So it is a special skill, but with special rewards for enjoyment once you can do it.

[PORT ROYAL]

11 minutes ago, WestonOne said:

I suppose I should declare my position, somewhat.  I would certainly call myself a beginner, but have been having a mixture of private and group ballroom lessons 'on land', starting as we came out of the final covid restrictions,   Coincidentally, the male instructor used to be on Cunard as an instructor and to give exhibition dances.  Probably the single biggest reason for the lessons was to decide what dances were 'safe' for my wife who has had both hips and both knees replaced.  Her movement is pretty good considering but samba hip movements, for example, would be very unwise.

But I do feel there is a strong barrier in how ballroom is presented.   " Some fraction of people who have been to the dance classes on board, will then go back home, join a local ballroom dance class near home, learn more steps, and go to their local  'practice dances' designed specifically for couples to gain that initial experience and confidence".  Yes, ok.  All that to gain that initial experience? And what about the rest (what, 90% perhaps)?  How are they to be encouraged?  Especially while they are still on the ship?

Let me contrast that with my experience with another style of dancing.  I was a student and my ex-flatmate had gone to do his Master's in Oxford.   Every Mayday there is a big procession passing Magdalen Tower and he had joined a traditional dance team which was part of the procession.  "By the way", he said to me, "You are in it."  So there was I, dancing along in front of thousands of tourists, based mainly on vague memories from primary school.  Afterwards his dance group and I went to the college green and spent something like 8 hours doing various dances, some just about possible for me, others well outside my ability.  Most of these dances relied on all 8 (or whatever) being properly positioned at all times, frequently moving independently, and some with four or five  32 bar verses which differed every time, so there was a great deal of my being yanked around.   After that, I did go home and join a dance team.  As it was part of the University, every year we had to introduce and teach a new batch of novices.

I am quite involved with a whole range of dancing.  Very beginners ballroom, as I say.  English traditional (and to a lesser extent Scottish and Irish.)  Playford and Apted (roughly, 17c dance)  I am also a patron of one of the touring ballet companies in the UK.   

So I like to encourage all forms of dance, including ballroom.  I would far rather beginners took part and made a mess of things with their mistakes ignored, than that they did not take part for fear of making a fool of themselves.  I have encountered a similar barrier with a Morris Dance side, where I was told after 5 years practice I might be good enough to appear in public.  (Most sides are not like that!) 

So I get back - eventually - to the point.  What can be done to encourage beginners that is not already being done, while they are on the ship? 

 

Wow…..

just a thought- How about a special “Dance” meet and greet of CC members, not just in Cunard but across all lines, where novices, in need of confidence, and above, can get together and “break the ice”.  As one believes, it’s the first gentle step into the World of Dance is always the most difficult. Knowing CC members would be most welcoming and generous with their pre-cruise exchanges.

Think CC would be the ideal platform for breaking the ice…..

So it’s now over to the Mods…..

 

[ballroom-cruisers]

People going to the Queen's Room kind of do have a gentle meet and greet - people gradually say hello and start chatting even without any formal suggestion of that happening.

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

Sadly the Queen's Room doesn't have a bar!  On QM2 the nearest is that in G32, and the other two ships you have to go out, and down the corridor to order a drink, unless you can grab the attention of one of the limited number of waiters who do their best to serve everyone in the Queen's Room, which sometimes is very difficult for them especially when it is busy just after the theatre performance ends, for example.

 

That's why bar was in "  " commas

[ballroom-cruisers]

Yes I know - my answer was a little tongue in cheek - supposedly!

[Lakesregion]

7 hours ago, elmsliebev said:

short sleeved shirts/polo shirts were fine on non-formal nights on QE last/this month. Might be too chilly for them in November but long-sleeved is not part of the requirement, a collared shirt is. 

Who really cares any more. You make whatever statement you care to make with what you wear and the rest of the passengers will either agree or avoid. Very simple these days.

[Windsurfboy]

Still say 're small numbers Ballroom dancing in Queens room,  it's like your local bank branch, you may love it , but only go once a year and suddenly it's gone. Same with Ballroom dancing in Queens room, if people don't  use it (even to watch others)  they loose it.  

[ballroom-cruisers]

If that does happen then Cunard would lose bookings from that fraction of people who would no longer see Cunard as being sufficiently special relative to some other alternative cruise lines.  At the end of the day, time will tell.   Certainly for us, if we could not go and dance ballroom and Latin every evening in the Queen's Room, then the particular lure of Cunard would be gone. There are other lines where ballroom dancing is still possible every evening, even if there is not the grandeur of a ballroom of the quality of the Queen's Room, but with high quality dining, and more alternatives for dining too, and similar other entertainment. If there are sufficient passengers who will book and fill the capacity of Cunard ships if ballroom dancing were to no longer be a key part of the evening, then hopefully people who then do book, will be delighted and enjoy the voyages, but for us, and indeed for quite a few people we know, then holidays will be taken elsewhere.  I will certainly be sad to see that happen, but if it does then we will find enjoyment away from Cunard.  Maybe enough people will find that perfectly acceptable, and good luck to them, but the special character of the Cunard experience will have disappeared for us in that case.