Yet more red tape to be aware of!

[Megabear2]

This is an update regarding Package Travel Regulations application.  Although not strictly P&O related I've recently seen them referenced in relation to one or two P&O issues so thought my latest discussion with ABTA, Princess and my aunt's travel agent (IC) might be of interest.

 

It might be recalled that Princess have been arguing they had no duty of care to my aunt and I as the Package Travel Regulations do not apply to our trip as we used a travel agent. I have been arguing against this for some weeks.  On Friday I received their final response, basically we did nothing wrong, your contract isn't with us, get lost!  They have told me to complain to ABTA (I was already in communication) and IC as my contract is with them as Princess are a "provider" of an element of the package only. 

 

After an in depth conversation with ABTA yesterday I am informed that Princess are saying this because the flights to Barcelona and from Rome were organised by IC on Easyjet and Vuehling.  Apparently this is a very common get out on fly cruises.  I am told cruise lines in general have a habit of passing the buck back to travel agents because ATOL certificates are issued by them in these instances not by the cruise line.  Therefore apparently even a simple ex UK cruise is often disputed by cruise lines as not their problem when a travel agent is involved.

 

I am now being advised to start an ABTA complaint against IC alongside Princess.  Apart from the financial demand by Princess for my aunt's bill I am told that the stranding of me in Civitavecchia and responsibility of land agents is actually a "grey" area which both Princess and IC may have legal reasons to be able to wiggle out of.  Any duty of care can apparently be disputed by a cruise line if a travel agent ATOL certificate is in existence.

 

I therefore discussed these points with IC yesterday afternoon and they have agreed to the opening of a formal complaint against them.  ABTA are also continuing the complaint against Princess and opened one against IC.  

 

This post is mainly for information but as a great number here use travel agents I thought it might be relevant or helpful. Forewarned as they say.

 

On a different note, sadly I am informed this morning my aunt collapsed at home last night and is back in hospital having her lungs drained again. Apparently we are no nearer to the appointment for the promised angiogram and operation which was meant to occur the day after she returned to the UK last month.

[Denarius]

As I understood it, the Package Travel Regulations only apply if the entire holiday is bought as a package from a single supplier. So if you book a cruise "cruise only" with XYZ cruises and they organise travel to and from the cruise as part of a bespoke package then the regulations apply to the travel element as well as the cruise. But if you just book the cruise and you or your travel agent arranges travel separately then the latter is not covered by the regulations. Princess' interpretation appears to me to be consistent with this if as is implied by your post you booked cruise only and your travel agent then booked the associated flights for you direct with the airlines without involving the cruise company

Edited September 6, 2022 by Denarius

[kalos]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

On a different note, sadly I am informed this morning my aunt collapsed at home last night

 

Lets hope she gets sorted whilst in hospital 

[Bill Y]

1 hour ago, Denarius said:

As I understood it, the Package Travel Regulations only apply if the entire holiday is bought as a package from a single supplier. So if you book a cruise "cruise only" with XYZ cruises and they organise travel to and from the cruise as part of a bespoke package then the regulations apply to the travel element as well as the cruise. But if you just book the cruise and you or your travel agent arranges travel separately then the latter is not covered by the regulations. Princess' interpretation appears to me to be consistent with this if as is implied by your post you booked cruise only and your travel agent then booked the associated flights for you direct with the airlines without involving the cruise company

It would appear that the responsibility for a package is with whoever puts the package together. For example flights, hotel, maybe a land tour and a cruise, quite a few TA’s do this and market the holiday as a package. In the past I can remember TA’s disputing that they sold a package as defined by the regulations, they stated that they had merely sold a cruise/hotel and the customer instructed them to also book fights and as such these were two separate transactions IIRC it was often small independent TA that were claiming this. The fact that these holidays are advertised as such should be proof of a package.

 

The normal accepted responsibilities are getting you to accommodation that is not overbooked and getting you to the ship even if the airline has screwed up, other responsibilities and what level of care is reasonable I can imagine can be subject to much legal wrangling.

 

Regarding care, in spring 2021 when asked to pay balances on river cruises I asked the TA about customer care if we succumbed to covid, we were concerned that we would not be dumped in a quarantine hotel in some obscure town etc? after conferring with the cruise operator it was suggested the they moved the cruise to 2022. I fear that as it’s been said that we all must live with covid the companies will become more hard nosed.

 

I appreciate that Megabear’s problems are not covid related, and are grateful that she has highlighted another potential pitfall.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Denarius said:

As I understood it, the Package Travel Regulations only apply if the entire holiday is bought as a package from a single supplier. So if you book a cruise "cruise only" with XYZ cruises and they organise travel to and from the cruise as part of a bespoke package then the regulations apply to the travel element as well as the cruise. But if you just book the cruise and you or your travel agent arranges travel separately then the latter is not covered by the regulations. Princess' interpretation appears to me to be consistent with this if as is implied by your post you booked cruise only and your travel agent then booked the associated flights for you direct with the airlines without involving the cruise company

No regarding cruise only and flights,  that's not what happened.  I actually didn't book the cruise as it was originally my aunt and a friend going on it.  However the holiday was advertised by IC in a leaflet and national newspaper as an all inclusive Mediterranean cruise.  The invoice issued by IC states exactly that and the associated certificate issued to my aunt and her friend defines it as a package. The invoice also includes a £5 charge for the ATOL certificate which according to ABTA makes it a full package covered by the Regulation.

[Megabear2]

42 minutes ago, Bill Y said:

The normal accepted responsibilities are getting you to accommodation that is not overbooked and getting you to the ship even if the airline has screwed up, other responsibilities and what level of care is reasonable I can imagine can be subject to much legal wrangling.

As explained to me the difficulties and need for assistance on the ground (in my case I was locked in a closed port with no assistance to get out) are the grey area where this sort of package is involved.  Princess could wash their hands of me quite legally it appears as IC held my contract and therefore clause 18 became their responsibility.  It should be remembered I was 20 minutes from being abandoned in the port with the threat of being removed by the police, I was only able to get out by the good fortune of the two passengers refused boarding return ing to the airport. IC, quite reasonably, told me that being based in the UK there would have been little they could have done, particularly with language barriers and need for immediate assistance accessing a hotel and local currency. On the day both they and my insurance company stated as Princess were actually on the ground in Italy I should turn to them for the duty of care.

[david63]

I guess that the moral of all of this is to book directly with the cruise company as that way they cannot wriggle out of their responsibilities, although it does not guarantee the level of assistance that they will offer.

[tring]

Regulation 18 is quite clear. IC have a contractual obligation to provide you with "appropriate assistance" and if they do not, they are liable for breach of contract. As you describe your situation, IC are the "organiser" (Reg 2(1) and if they have not put in place appropriate procedures to give assistance, perhaps by contracting with one of the assistance companies that travel insurers use, they are clearly in breach of their legal and contractual obligations. I doubt whether any small travel agent who is prepared to put a package together is even aware of this responsibility,  let alone put procedures in place. But ignorance of the law is no excuse and I am sure they have insurance to cover any claim against them. You imply you contacted them and they would not or could not do anything, so you did alert them to the issue and sought assistance.

 

I must admit these circumstances have made us wary of getting a TA to make up a package, unless it were one of the big ones, though there are considerable advantages to having a package rather than booking various elements individually.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by tring

[tring]

Due to the complications of this, DH wrote the above post directly whilst checking the Regulations.  Sorry, as it was in the Med, we did not realise it had been a fly cruise put together by the agent, thinking it was just the cruise you had bought from the agent.

 

We really hope your aunt recovers and gets the treatment she so much needs.  The NHS is a real problem at present.

Edited September 6, 2022 by tring

[tring]

It could also be argued that Princess have a duty of care for you as a cruise passenger and have therefore been negligent in the way they treated you,  i.e. law of negligence rather than contract or package travel regs.

 

However, we hope the route you are taking now is successful.

 

Barbara

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, tring said:

Regulation 18 is quite clear. IC have a contractual obligation to provide you with "appropriate assistance" and if they do not, they are liable for breach of contract. As you describe your situation, IC are the "organiser" (Reg 2(1) and if they have not put in place appropriate procedures to give assistance, perhaps by contracting with one of the assistance companies that travel insurers use, they are clearly in breach of their legal and contractual obligations. I doubt whether any small travel agent who is prepared to put a package together is even aware of this responsibility,  let alone put procedures in place. But ignorance of the law is no excuse and I am sure they have insurance to cover any claim against them. You imply you contacted them and they would not or could not do anything, so you did alert them to the issue and sought assistance.

 

I must admit these circumstances have made us wary of getting a TA to make up a package, unless it were one of the big ones, though there are considerable advantages to having a package rather than booking various elements individually.

 

Thank you for your as ever excellent explanation.  You are correct in your assumption I contacted IC on the day, in fact in my panic I contacted just about anyone I could think of!  I've checked my mobile phone records for the day and there were in fact 43 calls made by me before my battery died, 5 of which were to IC.  

 

My understanding of the situation as explained to me on the day was that Princess were going to offer the on the ground support in the form of the non showing Stefano and Christian.  As a result I believed they were accepting responsibility for me.  I was unaware of anyone having a "duty of care" to me apart from my BIL telling me that if I left the port it would cease to be Princess' responsibility. 

 

As it has now been explained to me they actually didn't have one but as a matter of common decency should have at least provided assistance to get me outside the port and in to a place of safety where I could have organised proper support.

 

On the day IC informed me that they could not assist as my immediate needs were cash access for a taxi and Italian language translation.  This tallied with information from my own insurer so both parties in that respect believed that Princess should assist as they had "boots on the ground".  At the time it made sense as any normal person would assume it would be in all parties' interests to sort the matter and get me outside of the locked port.  In the event the status quo existed with no one actually bothering to think of the practicalities of how I would get out of Civitavecchia port.  

 

ABTA are continuing their conversations with Princess regarding the bill payment issue and also seeking an explanation as to how they actually expected me to get outside of the port without a common sense approach to payment for the taxi and finding me a place if safety.  I have been advised to start over again with the whole process against IC.  I have therefore put them on notice and ABTA have registered a new complaint accordingly.

 

Your latest post on negligence is interesting as of course it relates to ABTAs question of how did Princess expect me to leave the port without their help.  If you could expand on that point I would be most grateful

 

This whole package business with travel agents is far more complex than I could imagine.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Megabear2

[tring]

10 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Thank you for your as ever excellent explanation.  You are correct in your assumption I contacted IC on the day, in fact in my panic I contacted just about anyone I could think of!  I've checked my mobile phone records for the day and there were in fact 43 calls made by me before my battery died, 5 of which were to IC.  

 

My understanding of the situation as explained to me on the day was that Princess were going to offer the on the ground support in the form of the non showing Stefano and Christian.  As a result I believed they were accepting responsibility for me.  I was unaware of anyone having a "duty of care" to me apart from my BIL telling me that if I left the port it would cease to be Princess' responsibility. 

 

As it has now been explained to me they actually didn't have one but as a matter of common decency should have at least provided assistance to get me outside the port and in to a place of safety where I could have organised proper support.

 

On the day IC informed me that they could not assist as my immediate needs were cash access for a taxi and Italian language translation.  This tallied with information from my own insurer so both parties in that respect believed that Princess should assist as they had "boots on the ground".  At the time it made sense as any normal person would assume it would be in all parties' interests to sort the matter and get me outside of the locked port.  In the event the status quo existed with no one actually bothering to think of the practicalities of how I would get out of Civitavecchia port.  

 

ABTA are continuing their conversations with Princess regarding the bill payment issue and also seeking an explanation as to how they actually expected me to get outside of the port without a common sense approach to payment for the taxi and finding me a place if safety.  I have been advised to start over again with the whole process against IC.  I have therefore put them on notice and ABTA have registered a new complaint accordingly.

 

This whole package business with travel agents is far more complex than I could imagine.

 

It does indeed sound an utter nightmare, though you appear to be on track now with the help of ABTA. 

 

At least P&O fly cruises have the flights included, though still unbelievable about how difficulties can arise in other circumstances.  

 

Good luck,

 

Barbara

 

 

[wowzz]

As a matter of interest, do Princess have to reply to ABTA within a certain time frame? 

[Megabear2]

9 minutes ago, wowzz said:

As a matter of interest, do Princess have to reply to ABTA within a certain time frame? 

Standard communication gives them 28 days every time.  This is so they can check ship's records.  I didn't really understand this as Princess have already told me they have been examined but apparently that's the rule.

[wowzz]

4 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Standard communication gives them 28 days every time.  This is so they can check ship's records.  I didn't really understand this as Princess have already told me they have been examined but apparently that's the rule.

Thanks. I'm looking forward (if that is the correct phrase) to Princess's attempt to weasel their way out of their (in)actions.

[tring]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Thank you for your as ever excellent explanation.  You are correct in your assumption I contacted IC on the day, in fact in my panic I contacted just about anyone I could think of!  I've checked my mobile phone records for the day and there were in fact 43 calls made by me before my battery died, 5 of which were to IC.  

 

My understanding of the situation as explained to me on the day was that Princess were going to offer the on the ground support in the form of the non showing Stefano and Christian.  As a result I believed they were accepting responsibility for me.  I was unaware of anyone having a "duty of care" to me apart from my BIL telling me that if I left the port it would cease to be Princess' responsibility. 

 

As it has now been explained to me they actually didn't have one but as a matter of common decency should have at least provided assistance to get me outside the port and in to a place of safety where I could have organised proper support.

 

On the day IC informed me that they could not assist as my immediate needs were cash access for a taxi and Italian language translation.  This tallied with information from my own insurer so both parties in that respect believed that Princess should assist as they had "boots on the ground".  At the time it made sense as any normal person would assume it would be in all parties' interests to sort the matter and get me outside of the locked port.  In the event the status quo existed with no one actually bothering to think of the practicalities of how I would get out of Civitavecchia port.  

 

ABTA are continuing their conversations with Princess regarding the bill payment issue and also seeking an explanation as to how they actually expected me to get outside of the port without a common sense approach to payment for the taxi and finding me a place if safety.  I have been advised to start over again with the whole process against IC.  I have therefore put them on notice and ABTA have registered a new complaint accordingly.

 

Your latest post on negligence is interesting as of course it relates to ABTAs question of how did Princess expect me to leave the port without their help.  If you could expand on that point I would be most grateful

 

This whole package business with travel agents is far more complex than I could imagine.

 

Negligence is a tort, and there is no need to show a contractual relationship. The classic example is a car crash where a driver crosses a give way sign and smashes into you. You need to show the other party had a duty of care towards you, like the driver who has a duty of care to other road users (in your case, the cruise company would probably argue that once you were off the ship, you were nothing to do with them, but this may well not be the case) and that they failed to act in a reasonable manner (eg, the previously mentioned driver crossed a give way sign without checking the road was clear) that caused you loss or harm. The question in your case would be, was it reasonable for the cruise company to do what they did - ie, nothing? It is not as simple as a car crash and would need legal advice to take it any further. A solicitor would probably take it on a no win no fee basis if they thought you had a reasonable claim, or do you have legal cover on your household insurance? Go down the ABTA route first but remember you have three years from the event to start legal proceedings for negligence.

[Bill Y]

This is an eye opener, one used to think that if you booked a holiday with a reputable company that had agents or port agents on the ground and travel insurance you would be safe.

 

This is clearly no longer true with cruise lines disputing responsibility for their part of the package, While this may be technically correct to claim off the package provider who in turn claims against the cruise company this is of little comfort to the customer that requires urgent assistance in distressing times.

 

It has always been said that you must phone the insurance companies hotline to get them to approve expenditure. To hear that they may not authorise anything until they confirm your medical history which may take several days to do before they acknowledge liability and leaving you to pay large bills in the meantime is outrageous. 

 

It would seem that the whole business of travel company's duty of care and travel insurance provisions needs to be looked into by a regulator?

[Bob++]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:51 PM, tring said:

The classic example is a car crash where a driver crosses a give way sign and smashes into you.

I think that this analogy only works if the other driver failed to stop because their car was faulty and had just been collected after a service by a reputable garage. 

 

You would claim from the other driver and they would claim for your damages as well as their own from the negligent garage. It's easy to see how this could get complicated.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Bob++