Gratuities, does the employees actually get them?

[New2cruise2022]

12 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Not so.  Every cruise line in Cruise Critic is facing the same criticisms.  I understand full well that folks are hurting due to the inflation caused price increases.  There's no reason to single out NCL.

Didn't work.

I’m only singling out NCL because this particular forum is for … NCL. 

[New2cruise2022]

14 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Not so.  Every cruise line in Cruise Critic is facing the same criticisms.  I understand full well that folks are hurting due to the inflation caused price increases.  There's no reason to single out NCL.

Didn't work.

I’m sure you are a lovely human, but your history on CC is like a dog sitting in a corner with a bone, growling at anyone that walks by. Which is fine. But just let people share their opinions. Take them or leave them. 

[RocketMan275]

10 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

I’m sure you are a lovely human, but your history on CC is like a dog sitting in a corner with a bone, growling at anyone that walks by. Which is fine. But just let people share their opinions. Take them or leave them. 

Bucking for a job offer as posting policeman?

[New2cruise2022]

8 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Bucking for a job offer as posting policeman?

I’d have to see the compensation package first, and know that they aren’t going to add more to the DSC to pay for my position.

[chengkp75]

45 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

I assumed your numbers were not a look into the actual contracts. But the process of crew compensation is something you seem more knowledgeable about than anyone else on CC. My math problem was merely an exercise how the funds accumulated from the DSC are not small change and would extend beyond the hypothetical. That being said, if the DSC could generate $2-3M per month, per ship, it could be a $25M/year capture. If all of that went to crew compensation, a ship with 1700 crew could average $15K in compensation per crew member. 

You're right, the amount of DSC is not small change, it accounts for the vast majority of crew wages (that participate in the DSC pool, which has increased greatly over the last decade).  And, $15k/year is about right for entry level crew, some will be paid more, and some crew and all supervisors and officers will not be included in the DSC pool.  The very ability to break out the DSC as a separate charge also carries with it the restrictions of accounting that publicly traded companies have to meet, and they cannot be melded into general revenue.

[New2cruise2022]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You're right, the amount of DSC is not small change, it accounts for the vast majority of crew wages (that participate in the DSC pool, which has increased greatly over the last decade).  And, $15k/year is about right for entry level crew, some will be paid more, and some crew and all supervisors and officers will not be included in the DSC pool.  The very ability to break out the DSC as a separate charge also carries with it the restrictions of accounting that publicly traded companies have to meet, and they cannot be melded into general revenue.

Everything has trade offs. Having this flexibility comes at the cost of legally having to allow consumers the option to remove those charges. 

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

Everything has trade offs. Having this flexibility comes at the cost of legally having to allow consumers the option to remove those charges. 

Unfortunately, this is the part of the DSC concept that I detest.  It was created, and is used to make up for lack of first line personnel management training, by making the DSC pool crew a "team" and using peer pressure within that team to ensure that the customers are completely satisfied with service.  The cruise line is able to say "it wasn't us that cut your wages, it was the passengers", so you all must work harder to ensure that everyone on the team does their utmost best.  It is "carrot and stick" management, which is completely outdated.

[RocketMan275]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 The very ability to break out the DSC as a separate charge also carries with it the restrictions of accounting that publicly traded companies have to meet, and they cannot be melded into general revenue.

IOW, despite some claims here, DSC cannot legally contribute to line profits.

[cruiseny4life]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Do  you have anything to substantiate that claim?

I do. Well, I don't know where the money goes, but I have had two NCL employees tell me not to provide a tip on paper. They told me to either 1) not tip, or 2) give them a cash tip. Were they telling the truth? I don't know. I chose to believe them, so they received a cash tip.

 

Will you believe me? I don't care.

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

I do. Well, I don't know where the money goes, but I have had two NCL employees tell me not to provide a tip on paper. They told me to either 1) not tip, or 2) give them a cash tip. Were they telling the truth? I don't know. I chose to believe them, so they received a cash tip.

 

Will you believe me? I don't care.

I was curious.  I always leave the DSC in place and I always provide additional tips in cash.

 

I have seen many posters advise others to just add the tip on paper.  Always thought that was suspect.

[cruiseny4life]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

I was curious.  I always leave the DSC in place and I always provide additional tips in cash.

 

I have seen many posters advise others to just add the tip on paper.  Always thought that was suspect.

Gotcha! I was flip, because it's...well, it's CC. 🙂

 

I keep the DSC, as well. Ethically, I'd need a darn good reason to cancel it (I despise it, but I agreed to it). I do tip a few crew members separately (not huge dollar amounts) to show my appreciation for making my trip even better.

 

To be honest, I was a bit shocked when the crew members told me the paper tips weren't provided directly to them.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, cruiseny4life said:

To be honest, I was a bit shocked when the crew members told me the paper tips weren't provided directly to them.

The more you can keep things just between you and the crew, the better.

I know that here in US, service people prefer direct cash tips.  Has something to do with the IRS.  Might be the same shipboard.  Yes, I know the IRS doesn't have anything to do with ships but there maybe other similar things.

[ChiefMateJRK]

16 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Has something to do with the IRS. 

Yes.  Specifically, tax fraud.  I would just as soon not be a party to that.

[DaCruiseBug]

The NCL Escape holds 4,266 guests at double occupancy and has 1,733 crew.

 

The NCL escape also has 95 Haven cabins. So 190 guests pay Haven service charges.

 

So if you have 4,076 non-Haven guests paying $20 per day in service charges times 365 days that's $7,300 per guest per year or $29,754,800 for all 4,076 guests for an entire year. Add in $1,733,750 from Haven guests and that comes out to $31,488,550 total for the year.

 

If you divide $31,488,550 by 1,733 crew members (even tho officers and managers shouldn't count) that comes out to $18,169.97 per crew member per year in daily service charges.

 

That's $1,514.16 per crew member per month just on daily service charges.

 

Now ask yourself...do you really think that 100% of the DSC goes to crewmembers? How much do you think they actually make each month? If you think they earn less than $1,514.16 per month then money is being pocketed by NCL. If you think they earn on average about that amount...then your DSC is paying their entire salary.

 

It's simple math people. For whatever reason there's always a few people that will defend NCL until their last breath but math doesn't lie.

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

The NCL Escape holds 4,266 guests at double occupancy and has 1,733 crew.

 

The NCL escape also has 95 Haven cabins. So 190 guests pay Haven service charges.

 

So if you have 4,076 non-Haven guests paying $20 per day in service charges times 365 days that's $7,300 per guest per year or $29,754,800 for all 4,076 guests for an entire year. Add in $1,733,750 from Haven guests and that comes out to $31,488,550 total for the year.

 

If you divide $31,488,550 by 1,733 crew members (even tho officers and managers shouldn't count) that comes out to $18,169.97 per crew member per year in daily service charges.

 

That's $1,514.16 per crew member per month just on daily service charges.

 

Now ask yourself...do you really think that 100% of the DSC goes to crewmembers? How much do you think they actually make each month? If you think they earn less than $1,514.16 per month then money is being pocketed by NCL. If you think they earn on average about that amount...then your DSC is paying their entire salary.

 

It's simple math people. For whatever reason there's always a few people that will defend NCL until their last breath but math doesn't lie.

According to chengkp75. it is illegal to comingle DSC with general revenue.  That completely obliviates your allegations.

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

You're right, the amount of DSC is not small change, it accounts for the vast majority of crew wages (that participate in the DSC pool, which has increased greatly over the last decade).  And, $15k/year is about right for entry level crew, some will be paid more, and some crew and all supervisors and officers will not be included in the DSC pool.  The very ability to break out the DSC as a separate charge also carries with it the restrictions of accounting that publicly traded companies have to meet, and they cannot be melded into general revenue.

 

[New2cruise2022]

1 hour ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Yes.  Specifically, tax fraud.  I would just as soon not be a party to that.

It isn’t fraud to provide cash tips. It isn’t the tipper’s responsibility to disclose. 

[ChiefMateJRK]

1 minute ago, New2cruise2022 said:

It isn’t fraud to provide cash tips. It isn’t the tipper’s responsibility to disclose. 

What's your point?  I simply indicated that I didn't want to be a party to that (i.e. part of the process). 

[DaCruiseBug]

38 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

According to chengkp75. it is illegal to comingle DSC with general revenue.  That completely obliviates your allegations.

 

 

Doesn't have to go in as "general revenue". There's plenty of (legal) accounting practices that would let NCL essentially add DSC to their bottom line.

[New2cruise2022]

1 hour ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

What's your point?  I simply indicated that I didn't want to be a party to that (i.e. part of the process). 

Point: Cash tips in no way constitute tax fraud or involvement with the IRS on the part of the tipping party, regardless of the actions of the receiving party. 
 

In Other Words: The tipping individual cannot be “party” to any process involving fraud. Only party to showing gratitude for service rendered. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by New2cruise2022

[ChiefMateJRK]

41 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

Point: Cash tips in no way constitute tax fraud or involvement with the IRS on the part of the tipping party, regardless of the actions of the receiving party. 
 

In Other Words: The tipping individual cannot be “party” to any process involving fraud. Only party to showing gratitude for service rendered. 

Yeah, yeah I knew what you meant.  I just meant that I didn't want to be any PART of it.  Was that unclear?  I guess my use of the word "party" had unexpected and adverse legal ramifications.  I'll need to beg for mercy from the court of the internet forum (not a very forgiving group BTW).  Can I get a witness??

[New2cruise2022]

21 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Yeah, yeah I knew what you meant.  I just meant that I didn't want to be any PART of it.  Was that unclear?  I guess my use of the word "party" had unexpected and adverse legal ramifications.  I'll need to beg for mercy from the court of the internet forum (not a very forgiving group BTW).  Can I get a witness??

Someone needs a hug. 🤗 

[MoCruiseFan]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:21 PM, MSUjohn said:

yes, it can be the passenger's business, because they are ultimately ponying up the cash, thus they are the primary driver of the exchange.

same goes for basic workplace saftey.

 

 

 

 

Pretzel logic at it's fines.  I guess I will start demanding to know the pay of every person who works at any establishment where I spend my hard earned.

[ChiefMateJRK]

1 hour ago, New2cruise2022 said:

Someone needs a hug. 🤗 

Group hug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RocketMan275]

13 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Doesn't have to go in as "general revenue". There's plenty of (legal) accounting practices that would let NCL essentially add DSC to their bottom line.

You want to explain those legal practices that allows the cruise line to avoid the laws prohibiting merging DSC with general revenues?  Until you've done so, all you have is your antipathy towards the DSC.  

[DaCruiseBug]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

You want to explain those legal practices that allows the cruise line to avoid the laws prohibiting merging DSC with general revenues?  Until you've done so, all you have is your antipathy towards the DSC.  

 

It's rather simple. If they can use the DSC to pay for the salaries of the crew onboard then they can also use them to pay for the salaries of their ground personnel. Doesn't have to be "general revenue" if it accomplishes the same thing. You honestly didn't think that a multi-billion dollar corporation that skirts paying many US taxes by registering ships in other countries could find a way to figure this out?