Here we go again. AB booking HC cabins.

[Oceanwench]

So, is what you are saying is that (those with invisible disabilities who may not use a wheelchair) are qualified to be placed in an accessible stateroom that has special features built in that serve to mitigate a disabling condition?

 

If that is the case would you please let us know why someone who does not use a wheelchair/scooter/etc need a stateroom that is modified to enable the presence of one? Just what special accessibllity feature of an accessible stateroom could possibly serve to mitigate the pain of a non-wheelchair using passenger? Deafness is a disability, mostly invisible, are you suggesting that those who are deaf and who have no mobility issues that would require them to need the special mitigating features of extra-wide doorways should out-of-hand be served up an accessible stateroom when special add-on lights and other hearing-impaired mitigating equipment can be added to any stateroom if the ship is so equipped? This reminds me of the marathon runner at work who insisted that he qualified for an accessible parking space because he had lost his left arm below the elbow.

 

I suspect that this issue will inevitably be brought to court if and when someone who is an ADA-qualified person with a disability cares to pursue it. As for invisible disabilities, someone who claims one should keep in mind the purpose of a wheelchair accessible stateroom.

 

If you are addressing my quote, let me tell you it was taken out of context, so you misinterpreted what I was saying.

 

I was replying to a person who self-righteously said he/she criticized people who use HC parking spaces, but don't appear to be handicapped.

This poster said he/she makes LOUD comments to these people.

 

I asked this person not to do that, as there are invisible handicaps, such as MS or fibromyalgia, that may limit a person's mobility but not require assistive devices.

 

DH has MS, and for a long time was able to walk without a cane. [He is now in a wheelchair.] But we had an HC tag and used the HC spaces, b/c he could not walk long distances from our van to a store or doctor's office.

 

There are all kinds of circumstances where a person may not appear handicapped, but has a hang tag and uses an HC parking spot. I was trying to educate the poster to this issue.

 

I am not sure if this quote is from this thread or the Princess thread ... I am not about to go read through both.

But the quote was taken out of context.

 

It had absolutely nothing to do with the use of HC cabins by pax without assistive devices such as scooters and wheelchairs.

[Oceanwench]

The quote on invisible handicaps attributed to me was taken from a thread on Princess boards.

 

The link to the thread was provided by the OP on this thread.

 

The person who used my quote did not quote my entire post, which is why it has been misunderstood in this circumstance.

 

As to my opinion on accessible rooms, I believe they were designed for people with assistive devices such as wheelchairs, scooters, walkers, etc.

Or people with mobility problems or even balance issues, who need the grab bars and higher toilets.

 

Or for a person with a guide dog, who would need more space.

[guardhouse]

Personally, we have never once had a problem booking the HC cabin we wanted on a cruise to accomodate my wife's wheelchair. I guess we have been lucky.

 

Princess does have a senior staff member (cannot remember her name) who was re-appointed last year to the ADA Advisory Board.....I think a federal board. I printed off the press release that has the info and I will dig it out so you have the name.

[Falling Rock]

I agree with you totally. HC people come in all different sizes with a variety of different needs. My hubby has a subtle visible HC when stationary, but with a keen eye one can see the neuro deficits and when he's in motion a secondary aliment of a limp is obvious. W/C or crutches are needed only occasionally, but the underlying HC remains debilitating.

BTW NCL requested a MD's note to book the HC room, yet they accepted faxed copies of HC placard and Golden Age Disabled passport. I now see one poster's position as a great idea. = Visit MD and have mulitple copies of disability written in letter for him/her to sign, then you'll always have a supply for such occasions.;)

There are many people out there who do not use mobility aids but need the space and accessibility of HC cabins. Some people can't manage the step in or out of the bathroom let alone the shower/bath. Some people need assistance getting in and out of bed. Try helping someone out of bed in 2 feet of space. People with balance issues can fall at the best of times let alone on a rocking ship. Try lifting a 200 lb person off the ground when there's no room to maneuver. Some people can't bend their knees when walking making it very hard to get through narrow doors and hallways.

 

In no way am I minimizing the needs of people in WC's but please realize that there are other disabilities that require the same space.

 

Happy sailing

[judyfssw]

My husband and I have sailed almost exclusively on Celebrity on the M class ships. He uses a wheelchair or a scooter around the ship. The very first time that we asked for an accessible cabin, we had to provide a letter from his doctor with his diagnosis and need for the accessible room. Since then, our TA and now me, have to get special permission when booking the HC room. I'm always surprised when I learn about other lines nonexistent ADA policies.

Next, I have to tackle Northwest Airlines for charging people for spots that may have been reserved for handicapped. It just never stops, does it?

[cjh]

I'm always surprised when I learn about other lines nonexistent ADA policies.

[/QUOTe]

 

Judy Celebrity is the one with the non ADA policy. Under the ADA you can not ask a person to provide proof of disability. Which I understand but I think is stupid.

 

Cindy

[prairie_fox]

Have you thought of the fact that some of those very people need to sit whenshowering. Tell me just how to place that seat in the reg shower and I would be happy to. Lack of balance doesnt help in a room where you need help from others to help you around. I guess those in a WC will never understand the needs of those not and maybe also the other way around. All I can say is dont take it out on those you cant see the problem of.

Another issue that maybe should be taken up with the ship is when you book a Guarantee room and the cruise line put them in that HC room that THEY DID NOT ask for. Now who do you pick on?? that person or the cruise line???

[lv2crooz2]

(wheelchair)-accessible staterooms are for those folks who use an assistive device that cannot fit through the doorway of a standard stateroom. I know folks who travel with a travel scooter that fits through a standard stateroom door; and yes they are disabled, but no they don't need an accessible stateroom. Nor do they book one ( hence the reason for purchasing the travel scooter).

 

I've also received letters from folks who have kids with ADD and feel they are entitled to an accessible stateroom (even though their kids have no mobility disability). They say (and I quote) "it's one of the few perks I get from having a disabled child and I think I'm entitled to the extra room."

 

First off, the accessible room is not a "perk".

 

Second, if you don't have an assistive device that can't fit into a standard room, then you really shouldn't be requesting it. If you have a sensory disability, they have kits that can adapt *any* room.

 

I'm not saying that there aren't "invisible" disabilities, but for the most part those folks with those invisible disabilities don't need an accessible room. It's really different from a parking space.

 

Candy

Candy, I have to respectfully disagree with your comment. My mom (84 yrs old) uses a cane for very short distances and a wheelchair for longer and when we travel. Certainly I could fold her chair into a regular cabin as she could walk in with the cane. However, she would not be able to use the bathroom facilities without a grab bar as well as the bars for the shower. Her Dr. has certified her as handicapped (hip disease) and I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why we have an HC room even though chances are excellent you will see her in the casino with her cane!!!:D I booked it, I paid for it, she deserves it.

[guardhouse]

Jan Tuck, Princess Access Compliance Manager was elected again as the chair of the U.S. Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Access Board. Appointed twice by President G.W. Bush.

 

This is from a Princess press release dated 5/4/2005 and has quotes from Jan Swartz, Princess senior VP of customer service.

 

The press release goes on to say that Tuck's responsibilities include monitoring accessibility of all Princess ships and land operations, as well as increasing comfort levels for all passengers with phusically challenging conditions.

 

Both Swartz and Tuck are out of the Santa Clarita address.

 

Hope that gives you a couple of names to send information to in regard to accessibility issues in regard to Princess.

[Queenie2]

Interestingly enough, the Access Board has still not issued final guidelines for cruise ships so technically speaking, there are no regs (and this has been going on way too long!!!). Yes, there was a supreme court decision (saying that crusie ships are covered by the ADA in a really broad sense) but it only addressed the broad issue of access, not what actually makes a cabin accessible. So different cruise lines have different "definitions" of accessible cabins and they are all perfectly legal because as of this date there are no regs. And when the new guidelines go into effect they will probably only be for newly built ships, so again there will be a lot of confusion. So like on land, you do need to ask about the specific details of an "accessible" cabin, as they are all not created equal.

 

As for partially accessible cabins, if the crusie lines would widen the doorways of *all* their cabins (as it is required on land) this would go a long way to making more cabins accessible to slow walkers. But they (cruise lines) have a huge argument against that, so I don't think it will happen. I addressed the Access Board about that issue, but it was not well received by the industry folks on the Board (including the Princess rep).

 

Candy

[Oceanwench]

Another issue that maybe should be taken up with the ship is when you book a Guarantee room and the cruise line put them in that HC room that THEY DID NOT ask for. Now who do you pick on?? that person or the cruise line???

 

My undestanding of the guarantee system is that these people are assigned to cabins close to the time of sailing. At that point, any HC cabin open is available for the pax with guarantees. I see nothing wrong with that. There is no need to keep HC cabin empty when the ship sails.

 

When I asked one of the HAL hotel managers about this, he said he gets lots of complaints from guarantee pax when they are assigned to the HC rooms, because these pax don't want them! Maybe the room lacks a tub, or less closet space. Whatever the reason, some pax actually complain.

[arabrab]

I'd strongly suggest filing a complaint with the U.S. Office of Civil Rights, copied to the cruiseline, each time you try to book a handicapped accessible room and are turned away. Copy the segement of the cruise critic page where able-bodied passengers talk about being able to book (or being given) HC cabins while people who need them are ignored.

 

With enough complaints, the OCR will begin compliance actions, which often end in consent decrees. Frequently the complaining party also gets some kind of settlement. In the hotel industry these actions have been very helpful -- a number of major hotel/motel chains are now subject to the consent decrees.

 

This should fall under Title III, and here is a link to the instructions on how to file a complaint:

http://www.ada.gov/t3compfm.htm

 

The more people who file complaints, citing specific dates and attempts to book cruises, the better. You can make a real difference.

 

Barb

[cusyl]

My undestanding of the guarantee system is that these people are assigned to cabins close to the time of sailing. At that point, any HC cabin open is available for the pax with guarantees. I see nothing wrong with that. There is no need to keep HC cabin empty when the ship sails.

 

QUOTE]

 

The cruiseline is in the business of selling cabins and making a profit. I agree that it makes no sense to sail with the cabin empty if no handicapped customer has booked it. I always book a year ahead in order to get whatever type cabin I can afford at the time.

[Queenie2]

 

With enough complaints, the OCR will begin compliance actions, which often end in consent decrees. Frequently the complaining party also gets some kind of settlement. In the hotel industry these actions have been very helpful -- a number of major hotel/motel chains are now subject to the consent decrees.

 

This should fall under Title III, and here is a link to the instructions on how to file a complaint:

http://www.ada.gov/t3compfm.htm

 

Barb

 

I'm not following this Barb. Well, not totally.

 

With the hotels (Holiday Inn and Courtyard settlements come to mind) the issue was that rooms were not blocked at the time of booking. The decrees stated that these chains have to block the rooms at the time of booking so that they will be available when the guest arrives.

 

In the cruise line example, the rooms (cabins) *are* blocked (a specific cabin is assigned to a specific passenger), but the problem is that they (accessible cabins) are not available (for whatever reason) at the time of booking. If an accessible hotel room was not available at the time of booking, the hotel would be under no (legal) obligation to find one for you. They would just say that they don't have an accessible room available for that night. So, how is this (not having an accessible cabin available) a Title III issue? Hotels do not ask about your disability or otherwise screen guests who book accessible rooms. All you have to do is say you want to book one and if it's available, it's yours.

 

So, well you can see my confusion.

 

Candy

[DEL67]

Personally, I have no issue with the cruise lines assigning able bodied people to handicap cabins after final payment if there are no regular cabins left in that category. It is a business after all. However to me, doing so before final payment or even after while there are other cabins in that category available is wrong.

 

Even more so is releasing handicap cabins for on-line booking well before final payment. I personally have encountered this twice as I have priced cabins on-line. Two years ago when I was pricing the NCL Winds' 10 day Hawaiian cruise, one handicap cabin was offered on line. And a few weeks ago, four handicap cabins were offered on-line for a July Alaskan sailing on the Sun Princess. We reserved one of them through an agent so there would be no question about our needing the cabin, but I wonder about the other three. I wouldn't be surprised if two or even all three of the remaining cabins were booked by able bodied passengers wanting a larger cabin. And this from a cruise line has always promoted itself as being handicap friendly.

[whiterose]

I am disabled - deaf - but I would never request a wheelchair accessible cabin. However, one of my pet peeves is that people seem to think that wheelchair users are the only disability and when they say something is accessible it really just means wheelchair accessible and has nothing for other disabilities. Most cruise ships have been modified for wheelchair users but have little or nothing for folk with hearing loss. A special phone in my cabin is not enough. I want to be able to enjoy the shows and other entertainment like everyone else. Okay I'll get off that soapbox.

 

These cabins should be labeled "for people with mobility impairments" and the cruise line should require a letter from your doctor to say you need that special cabin. They should only be released to the general population after final payment date.

 

I think you can reach Jan Tuck at jtuck@princesscruises.com

[Oceanwench]

I am disabled - deaf - but I would never request a wheelchair accessible cabin. However, one of my pet peeves is that people seem to think that wheelchair users are the only disability and when they say something is accessible it really just means wheelchair accessible and has nothing for other disabilities. Most cruise ships have been modified for wheelchair users but have little or nothing for folk with hearing loss. A special phone in my cabin is not enough. I want to be able to enjoy the shows and other entertainment like everyone else. Okay I'll get off that soapbox.

 

These cabins should be labeled "for people with mobility impairments" and the cruise line should require a letter from your doctor to say you need that special cabin. They should only be released to the general population after final payment date.

 

I think you can reach Jan Tuck at jtuck@princesscruises.com

 

 

Sorry, but I don't agree with your interpretation of accessible.

Accessible means that the cabin [or parking space or rest room] can be accessed -- and the logo shows a person in a wheelchair.

While it implies that the facility is accessible to "people with mobility impairments," that phraseology is a little too wordy. Thus, you have accessible, handicap accessible, wheelchair accessible, etc.

 

I think the understanding is such that people with other disabilities -- such as hearing or sight loss -- can ACCESS a standard space and do not need special accommodations such as wider doors, grab bars, etc.

 

Many places have booklets for people with disabilities -- Walt Disney World comes to mind -- that have sections addressing various disabilites and explain what services are available.

But those places still used the HC accessible terms when describing rides, restrooms, etc. that people in wheelchairs may or may not have access to.

 

I don't think anyone is intentionally demeaning or ignoring those who are deaf when they use the term HC accessible. It's just an easier, more common way of describing a person in a wheelchair, walker, scooter, etc.

[Queenie2]

A pet peeve of mine is when hotels make their "accessible" rooms to include physical access mods AND to have permanently installed sensory access mods. In most cases the mods for sensory dis are portable and folks can have a portable kit (supplied by the hotel) to use in any room. If they install the sensory mods to the wc-accessible room, they are further limiting the number of wc-accessible rooms they have (because they may be booked by a person with a sensory dis, who in fact could occupy any room with a portable kit). It's not that hotels ignore sensory dis, it's just that they are more portable. It' not like you can move a wide doorway or a roll-in shower to another room.

 

Candy

[whiterose]

Sorry - my mistake for not being clear. Maybe we should stop calling these 'handicapped' cabins and then people with disabilities who do NOT use wheelchairs would not feel entitled to book these cabins. They should be labeled wheelchair cabins or maybe mobility impairment cabins.

 

I agree too that it does not make sense to put the senory equipment in a wheelchair accessible hotel room. I've been booked into those because they were the only rooms with flashing light smoke alarms.

[terri1020]

We are booked on a Carnival cruise in June. My mom will be traveling with us on her first ever cruise. She is diabetic, leagally blind with a heart condition. Do you think having a HC cabin will be a benefit to my mom? What is in a HC cabin? I did think about asking Carnival about it but I was not sure if they would consider her ailments a handicap.

[Valentine's Mom]

Terr1020,

A handicapped room usually has wider doors, roll in shower, roll under sink, grab bars around the toilet and in the shower, and a seat in the shower. Some handicapped rooms also have automatic door openers (although not many) lower bars in the closet, emergency call buttons, and some rooms are larger so that a wheelchair can turn. If your mom requires any of these things then she should book a handicapped room.

[terri1020]

Thanks for the info. If we could get a cabin with bars in key places and a seat in the shower, it would make all the difference. I don't know why I never thought to ask. I'll phone Carnival on Monday and hope that an AB person didn't book that cabin! (JK)

 

I think it is mostly people who have never had to deal with a true handicap who might take advantage. I don't know if I feel angry with them or sorry for them.

 

Have a great holiday!

Terri

[Valentine's Mom]

HELP! I can't believe it. They are at it again! I started a thread about it but I didn't get the quote thing right and then they started jumping on me about it but I did get my 2 cents in at last. It's on the RCCL page. He is the Quote

 

Quote

Look for DFW4. It's their 3rd or 4th post.

 

 

Looking to book our second cruise on Explorer (we were on one of the 2-day inaugurals) and was wondering if anyone has info on the handicapp accessible inside rooms. On the website, it looks to be 260 sq ft vs the standard 160 sq feet and while neither of us is handicapped, I'm wondering what the general consensus is on reserving this room.

 

Of course, we would not want to take it away from someone who needs it, but if its available, is it worth requesting??

 

Can you believe it? This is why my next cruise is going to be HAL in November of this year. I get jumped on everytime I post anything on RCCL and this mix up didn't help.

[Umbarger]

I put a post on her original thread. Hopefully she will be educated. :rolleyes:

 

People on your other thread understand you now and are backing you up. :D

 

Linda

[etoile]

I am disabled - deaf - but I would never request a wheelchair accessible cabin. However, one of my pet peeves is that people seem to think that wheelchair users are the only disability and when they say something is accessible it really just means wheelchair accessible and has nothing for other disabilities. Most cruise ships have been modified for wheelchair users but have little or nothing for folk with hearing loss. A special phone in my cabin is not enough. I want to be able to enjoy the shows and other entertainment like everyone else. Okay I'll get off that soapbox.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your interpretation of accessible.

Accessible means that the cabin [or parking space or rest room] can be accessed -- and the logo shows a person in a wheelchair.

While it implies that the facility is accessible to "people with mobility impairments," that phraseology is a little too wordy. Thus, you have accessible, handicap accessible, wheelchair accessible, etc.

 

I think the understanding is such that people with other disabilities -- such as hearing or sight loss -- can ACCESS a standard space and do not need special accommodations such as wider doors, grab bars, etc.

I have to agree with whiterose, actually. The word "accessibility" is used in many ways, and entry to/use of a space is not the only kind of accessibility. In terms of cabins, then you are correct - deaf or blind persons can "access" standard cabins without special accommodations, and therefore do not necessarily need to book the HC cabins (unless they have an additional disability). That does not mean, though, that all cabins are instantly accessible to deaf or blind pax. For a deaf person (I am an interpreter, so I'm familiar with deaf accessibility but not blind accessibility), it's not just having a TTY phone available but also a door knock signaler, flashing/vibrating alarm clock, fire alarm strobe light, etc. Most cabins can be modified to have these features, fortunately.

 

And yet the rest of the ship may not be accessible to a deaf person. Whiterose, have you asked the cruise lines for interpreters (oral or sign)? Most of them do provide them when asked in advance. I know shows and events on board are interpreted; I don't know if shore excursions would be.

 

The thread is about accessible cabins, so let's keep discussing that, but as whiterose points out the word "accessibility" means a lot more than for those with mobility impairments.