Gratuity fee

[Tierun]

The real question here, is this an issue that will stop you from cruising in the future? As long as ships are full, none of this talk matters. If the staff is happy with their pay, then I have no complaints.

[pdmlynek]

6 minutes ago, Tierun said:

The real question here, is this an issue that will stop you from cruising in the future? As long as ships are full, none of this talk matters. If the staff is happy with their pay, then I have no complaints.

But couldn't that be said of every other posting as well?  🙂 

There are only a few issues that would make a person stop cruising in the future, but there are dozens or hundreds of little issues each of which has a tiny impact on plans to cruise.

 

[ray98]

People make too much out of this.

 

Company A pays an employee $2k salary.  They charge a service fee that goes towards that cost.

Company B pays an employee $1k salary.  They can make another $1k from the tip pool.
 

Same thing at the end of the day.

[Bgwest]

3 hours ago, ray98 said:

Company A pays an employee $2k salary.  They charge a service fee that goes towards that cost.

Only if there are those who are willing to subsidize Company A’s payroll obligation. 

[DWBirdman]

3 hours ago, ray98 said:

Same thing at the end of the day.

Not really. Tips, for many, are a reward for a job well done, above the expected. 
For me, if I go to dinner and my basic needs are met, then a minimal gratuity may be given. However, if the service is engaging and extending my experience (i.e. recommendations, personalized service, extra benefits) then the gratuity will reflect that service. 

A line item on the bill means that all optional and extended gratuities are put away. 

[Captain-John]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:15 AM, Bgwest said:

On 6/5/2023 at 12:16 AM, morpheusofthesea said:

From what I understand the mandatory gratuities go to pay the crew salaries. Those that manage to get these gratuities removed, the cruise line is forced to make up.

Your observation “the cruise line is forced to make up” is interesting

 

Isn't that a good reason to remove it? Staff still get paid, guest isn't subsidising the cruise line's balance sheet even more than the fare they have paid.... The current system is a madness.

[morpheusofthesea]

19 minutes ago, Captain-John said:

 

Isn't that a good reason to remove it? Staff still get paid, guest isn't subsidising the cruise line's balance sheet even more than the fare they have paid.... The current system is a madness.

You have a valid point. From what I understand all the fares from the UK this DSC is rolled into the fare and not a separate item allowed to be 'exorcised'.

  Also one might notice that those that book 12 months out will get an extra $200 OBC to offset the $110 gratuity/DSC for YC cabins.

Edited June 8, 2023 by morpheusofthesea

[Bgwest]

21 minutes ago, morpheusofthesea said:

You have a valid point. From what I understand all the fares from the UK this DSC is rolled into the fare and not a separate item allowed to be 'exorcised'.

  Also one might notice that those that book 12 months out will get an extra $200 OBC to offset the $110 gratuity/DSC for YC cabins.

When cruise lines serving the US market start rolling the DSC/Subsidy/Gratuity/Hotel Service Charge (whatever in blazes is the phrase du jour) into the base price of the cruise, then I'll participate. 

Until that happens, I will continue to remove their attempt at ill gotten gain from each and every cruise. 

[morpheusofthesea]

21 minutes ago, Bgwest said:

When cruise lines serving the US market start rolling the DSC/Subsidy/Gratuity/Hotel Service Charge (whatever in blazes is the phrase du jour) into the base price of the cruise, then I'll participate. 

Until that happens,[ I was afraid you were going to say something else]*

* Heaven forbid one would stop cruising until the 'cruiseline froze over".

[Illbcruzn4life]

On 6/5/2023 at 1:51 PM, DWBirdman said:

Similar here. I liked RCs way of addressing this. They offered us the ability to add a "gratuity" when purchasing our vacation. They also informed us that we could forego that option and tip as we desired while on board. 
 

My entire family was quite surprised with everyone (including children) received a charge on their account for Hotel Services Charge. When asked about this charge and why it was being charged to children, MSC responded that the HSC was for all of those servicing our room, table, etc. 

This fee directly impacted my independent tipping as an additional $1000+ dollars was attempting to be charged to me post boarding. I had the kids charges removed. The cabin steward and waiter in the MDR lost out due to this tactic.

That’s the first I’ve heard this. Go on RC quite a lot and I’ve never had that option.

 

I can prepay my gratuities or they are charged to my account while onboard. Interesting.

[Mark_T]

If the crew contract includes a basic salary and a forecast guaranteed share of the tip pool, as appears to be the case based on serval reports, then I fail to see the problem.

 

It allows the staff to plan and budget for their families and any bonus above the guaranteed share is obviously welcome, as are direct cash tips.

 

I have nothing good to say about anyone who would choose to go on a cruise in the full knowledge of the tipping policy and then seek to remove those tips, as the pool covers far more people than are interacted with directly, and those who you do interact with could not provide the service we appreciate without the work of those unseen colleagues...  Accidents happen, and tipping directly without realizing there would be tips on the cabin account is not in the same category, cruising in the full knowledge of the system and still removing the tips is like going to pretty much any restaurant in the USA and walking out without tipping your server...

[JamieLogical]

I really think this all comes out in the wash. If the cruise line charges a "gratuity" to subsidize crew salaries and we all start having the DSC removed from our accounts, then the cruise line will just start raising prices to pay crew more directly in order to retain them. Either way, we will end up paying money for the cruise line to retain employees. Why does it really matter if it's included in the cruise dare or in a DSC? It's still all going to be the same amount of money.... 

[PTC DAWG]

14 hours ago, Bgwest said:

When cruise lines serving the US market start rolling the DSC/Subsidy/Gratuity/Hotel Service Charge (whatever in blazes is the phrase du jour) into the base price of the cruise, then I'll participate. 

Until that happens, I will continue to remove their attempt at ill gotten gain from each and every cruise. 

Sad.  When in Rome, do as the English do, got it. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by PTC DAWG

[PTC DAWG]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

 

 

I have nothing good to say about anyone who would choose to go on a cruise in the full knowledge of the tipping policy and then seek to remove those tips, as the pool covers far more people than are interacted with directly, and those who you do interact with could not provide the service we appreciate without the work of those unseen colleagues...  Accidents happen, and tipping directly without realizing there would be tips on the cabin account is not in the same category, cruising in the full knowledge of the system and still removing the tips is like going to pretty much any restaurant in the USA and walking out without tipping your server...

Well said.

[skipsaur]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

Cruising in the full knowledge of the system and still removing the tips is like going to pretty much any restaurant in the USA and walking out without tipping your server...

 

So I definitely understand this perspective. In a tipping culture, stiffing your waitstaff isn't nice and the custom should be respected.

 

But what about sailing on a non-North American line out of a non-North American port that doesn't have a tipping culture? In some cultures tipping is considered rude. Would tipping still be the right thing, or should the local custom be respected?

[PTC DAWG]

9 minutes ago, skipsaur said:

 

So I definitely understand this perspective. In a tipping culture, stiffing your waitstaff isn't nice and the custom should be respected.

 

But what about sailing on a non-North American line out of a non-North American port that doesn't have a tipping culture? In some cultures tipping is considered rude. Would tipping still be the right thing, or should the local custom be respected?

There is a reason that most lines have the DSC applied automatically.  Folks stiffed the waitstaff/room stewards back in the day.  Now they try and handle it for you.  

 

I'm guessing that anyone working for you on the ships you mention would gladly accept an extra tip, and not be offended in any way.  

[Bgwest]

2 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

Sad.  When in Rome, do as the English do, got it. 

Then I'm definitely on your (and others) **** list. And I'm 100% OK with that. 

I'll say it one more time, when the cruise lines start including their attempt to satisfy THEIR payroll obligations to THEIR employees within the basic cruise fare, then I will happily participate.  Until then, I'll not participate in the marketing scam they seem content in foisting on the US cruise market. 

Let them adopt the UK/AUS/NZ pricing model for the US market.

 

After all, isn't this the way the English do it?  

[morpheusofthesea]

26 minutes ago, Bgwest said:

Then I'm definitely on your (and others) **** list.

Welcome to the club !

[skipsaur]

3 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

There is a reason that most lines have the DSC applied automatically.  Folks stiffed the waitstaff/room stewards back in the day.  Now they try and handle it for you.  

 

I'm guessing that anyone working for you on the ships you mention would gladly accept an extra tip, and not be offended in any way.  

Sure, I don't think the majority of people would turn down free money haha 😄 You might be right that most people wouldn't be offended. But personally I would feel very awkward if someone tried to tip ME. I might joke about accepting it but I don't think I would.

 

I also think most waitstaff/room stewards will say for tips, cash is king.

[perakcruiser]

It is very simple, the DSC is mandatory in almost all of MSC markets, you cannot remove it even if a staff member beats you or your kids😄 And it is listed in the final price already at the booking. 

 

There is one big exception, that is the US market. Here MSC follows the local practice of advertising a fake price that has nothing to do with reality, DSC is missing, taxes and fees are missing. That is plain stupid, but seems to be legal in the US. So the cruise lines have these "low" prices.

 

There is only one reason why MSC is doing this, because probably US pax mostly are not deleting the DSC even if they could. 

 

For the staff it makes no difference, if the US pax would start to delete the DSC, MSC has to compensate and would anyway immediately make it mandatory also for this market. 

[Captain-John]

Is it purely a 'headline price' deception, or are there also tax benefits (as has long been rumoured) to doing the split the way they do?

 

@JamieLogical - I take your point - but if it truly is the same amount of money, why do the cruise lines split it out instead of rolling it into the headline price? Cultural norms given most cruisers are American? The ability to advertise a lower headline price? Tax advantages by topping up crew salaries from a 'tip' pool rather than from another source?

 

I'm genuinely curious and if cruise lines were more transparent about this, there might be less suspicion about the collection of a DSC, and where it goes.

[Mark_T]

3 hours ago, skipsaur said:

But what about sailing on a non-North American line out of a non-North American port that doesn't have a tipping culture? In some cultures tipping is considered rude. Would tipping still be the right thing, or should the local custom be respected?

I am all for respecting the local culture, but the lines do get a bit blurred when the product is being sold locally in different countries and then delivered in a different international location.

 

When MSC sell in the UK (... and the rest of Europe I believe) they always include the gratuities in the cruise fare and there is no option to remove those gratuities, which is as it should be.

 

They perceive that for competitive pricing, the US market requires the gratuities to be separate, and the customer is given the option to remove them as well, perhaps those who are in favor of taking the option to remove the gratuities would prefer the UK approach and the higher cruise fare that results from that?

 

I'm certainly not seeing MSC using the gratuities to subsidise the salary bill, they simply use the guaranteed gratuity element of the crew contract to give the crew a budget figure they can rely upon, which seems a lot more practical than telling them to wait and see what they will get each segment of the cruise...

 

It seems perverse to have anyone in the USA complaining about this practice when it is virtually a national expectation that front line service industry staff will derive a significant portion of their income from tipping and they will get taxed on that assumption and can be paid below normal minimum wage based on the concept of a tipped minimum wage...

[PTC DAWG]

2 hours ago, Bgwest said:

Then I'm definitely on your (and others) **** list. And I'm 100% OK with that. 

I'll say it one more time, when the cruise lines start including their attempt to satisfy THEIR payroll obligations to THEIR employees within the basic cruise fare, then I will happily participate.  Until then, I'll not participate in the marketing scam they seem content in foisting on the US cruise market. 

Let them adopt the UK/AUS/NZ pricing model for the US market.

 

After all, isn't this the way the English do it?  

No list for me..carry on. I don’t agree with stiffing folks, but you do..cool by me.  

[PTC DAWG]

59 minutes ago, skipsaur said:

Sure, I don't think the majority of people would turn down free money haha 😄 You might be right that most people wouldn't be offended. But personally I would feel very awkward if someone tried to tip ME. I might joke about accepting it but I don't think I would.

 

I also think most waitstaff/room stewards will say for tips, cash is king.

Have you ever gotten a bonus at work? Free lunch even…that’s a tip. 

[skipsaur]

10 minutes ago, Captain-John said:

Is it purely a 'headline price' deception, or are there also tax benefits (as has long been rumoured) to doing the split the way they do?

 

@JamieLogical - I take your point - but if it truly is the same amount of money, why do the cruise lines split it out instead of rolling it into the headline price? Cultural norms given most cruisers are American? The ability to advertise a lower headline price? Tax advantages by topping up crew salaries from a 'tip' pool rather than from another source?

 

I'm genuinely curious and if cruise lines were more transparent about this, there might be less suspicion about the collection of a DSC, and where it goes.

 

I think you're right, the ability to advertise a lower headline price. And the cultural norm of accepting extra 20% gratuities on top. I'm not sure about tax advantages, because cruise ships usually aren't US flagged specifically to evade tax and labor laws.

 

At least in the US, tip sharing or pooling means tips become the property of the employer, not employee, and the employer gets to decide how they're shared. There's many benefits to this for the employer, for example employers get more control everyone's earnings and can level things out (kind of a communist approach: resources are collected from individuals and then redistributed by a central power.)

 

Generally tip pooling doesn't work great for workers. Most people don't tip double just because tips are pooled and shared to double the people, which means the same pool of money gets spread more thinly. Most tip workers choose the job because they accept the trade off of lower stable earnings versus higher earning potential.