Carnival Corporation has dissolved the Holland America Group...

[Destiny0315]

36 minutes ago, Despegue said:

Regarding Saudi’s cruising: They are getting more and more interested in the concept

I imagine that the air conditioning systems in the terminals and on the ships would be a top priority.🙂

[Mary229]

10 minutes ago, Destiny0315 said:

I imagine that the air conditioning systems in the terminals and on the ships would be a top priority.🙂

Ahem, let me let you in to a little secret.  You guys In Massachusetts have your indoor summer temperatures far too cold for hot climate folks.  We smirked at your “energy conservation” and grabbed a sweater and huddled together. 😉. I think you would find that most Saudis would agree. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Mary229

[kangforpres]

3 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Ahem, let me let you in to a little secret.  You guys In Massachusetts have your indoor summer temperatures far too cold for hot climate folks.  We smirked at your “energy conservation” and grabbed a sweater and huddled together. 😉. I think you would find that most Saudis would agree. 

Yes it really hot climates, especially in the Tropics, AC should never be set lower than 78. Most HVAC systems aren't designed to handle heatwaves  that have multiple 90+ degree days.

[Destiny0315]

21 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

Yes it really hot climates, especially in the Tropics, AC should never be set lower than 78.

Well then those old HAL ships would be a perfect fit for the Kingdom considering how many reviews and posts in CC over many years that have complained about cabin AC systems not working right and fans being used on the ships.

[Mary229]

45 minutes ago, Destiny0315 said:

Well then those old HAL ships would be a perfect fit for the Kingdom considering how many reviews and posts in CC over many years that have complained about cabin AC systems not working right and fans being used on the ships.

I think those old ships, in any scenario are destined for leaving the fleet.  The Zaandam is still in great repair. 

[Destiny0315]

Some travel advisors views on the Carnival restructuring...

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Travel-advisors-view-Carnival-reorg-favorably

[mwj]

At the end of March, Carnival Corp. in its Q1 earnings report said it had $32.6 billion in long-term debt, up from $9.6 billion at the end of 2019.

 

Given what has happened with golf (PGA, LIV, DP merge under Saudi), I think that all the groups (Carnival UK, HAL, Aida, Costa) except Carnival and Princess are fair game for purchase by the Saudi's.

 

[DCThunder]

3 hours ago, mwj said:

At the end of March, Carnival Corp. in its Q1 earnings report said it had $32.6 billion in long-term debt, up from $9.6 billion at the end of 2019.

 

Given what has happened with golf (PGA, LIV, DP merge under Saudi), I think that all the groups (Carnival UK, HAL, Aida, Costa) except Carnival and Princess are fair game for purchase by the Saudi's.

 

All cruisers will welcome our Saudi overlords!😎

[OlsSalt]

4 hours ago, Destiny0315 said:

Some travel advisors views on the Carnival restructuring...

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Travel-advisors-view-Carnival-reorg-favorably

 

This following insight is hopeful and may already explain HAL's very welcome new roll-out of a far more In-Depth approach to their Alaska cruises.

 

Hopefully more targeted itinerary enhancements will follow - HAL long strength has been its unique and travel oriented cruise offerings; not trying to compete with competitor's larger ships onboard entertainment diversions.

 

"This will enable the brands to operate with greater speed and responsiveness to market demands and opportunities and further position each of our brands to own its space in the vacation market as we rebuild our financial fortress and deliver long-term shareholder value," Weinstein said. 

[Colorado Klutch]

I sure hope Saudi Arabia doesn't buy HAL. They have allowed some changes recently, but women are still regarded as far below livestock. And Saudi Arabia recently announced they will reduce oil production hoping to boost global crude prices. Thanks. 

Although the Saudis have deep pockets, that doesn't mean they can run a cruise line. Consider Dubai. They also have deep pockets. They have spent tens of billions of dollars on efforts to diversify their economy and, thus far, it has gone pretty much nowhere.

 

I recently travelled through Dubai International Airport and it's really spiffy. But they have another, brand new Al Maktoum International Airport nearby. So far they have spent around $85 billion on that airport and almost nobody uses it. Why it was actually built is somewhat of a mystery. Dubai also has many man-made islands offshore; most of which remain empty. The islands which are occupied are sinking and suffer from stagnant water issues. Grand plans for "Dubailand" have mostly evaporated. The recession killed most of it, but the Dubai government is slowly starting to accept that not many people want to travel to Dubai for a vacation no matter how many resorts and water parks they have. 

Money can't always buy success. 

[OlsSalt]

There is a lot of one prince trying to outdo another prince in the UAE.  My project is bigger than your project. My scheme is better than your scheme. I can burn through more money than you can.

 

We visited Dubai on two occasions - several years apart, about 10 years ago. I suspect much of what was new and novel  then is now crumbling. When only The Creek was new and flashy, to see the Burg Kalifa reach its final towering peak - but only after extended family rescue financing.

[kirtihk]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:45 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

We all remember the rumors that CCL was going to sell off all of Seabourn to the Saudis. If still happening, HAL is now part of that deal? 

 

Of course, just rumor, but there were some meaty discussions on the financial pages that gave me pause.

It appears it's not the rumor:

 

Seabourn Cruise Line Has Been Sold!* - Goldring Travel

 

According to the Saudi Tourism Authority, Seabourn Cruise Line has been sold to the Saudis. The people I spoke with were definite and quite excited. They, in fact, emphasized the point by placing their fingers on a map of Saudi and stating, “Do you think we are building these two new cruise ports for no reason?!“

[Guest ldtr]

5 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

It appears it's not the rumor:

 

Seabourn Cruise Line Has Been Sold!* - Goldring Travel

 

According to the Saudi Tourism Authority, Seabourn Cruise Line has been sold to the Saudis. The people I spoke with were definite and quite excited. They, in fact, emphasized the point by placing their fingers on a map of Saudi and stating, “Do you think we are building these two new cruise ports for no reason?!“

Let's see that article was from over 6 months ago and while it was the source of rumors at the time did not pan out.

[bookitdanno]

The only thing better than a thread full of speculation is when it also contains outdated and incorrect information from a BLOG!!! 😄

[Colorado Klutch]

40 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

“Do you think we are building these two new cruise ports for no reason?!“

 

Yes. Yes I do, because that's the kind of thing oil rich countries do all the time. 😀

(I'm aware  a few cruise ships actually do dock in Saudi Arabia.)

Edited June 9, 2023 by Colorado Klutch

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, kirtihk said:

It appears it's not the rumor:

 

Seabourn Cruise Line Has Been Sold!* - Goldring Travel

 

According to the Saudi Tourism Authority, Seabourn Cruise Line has been sold to the Saudis. The people I spoke with were definite and quite excited. They, in fact, emphasized the point by placing their fingers on a map of Saudi and stating, “Do you think we are building these two new cruise ports for no reason?!“

Well, I think like lots of rumors, that tale is simply a fairy tale!  Whether the Saudis or another entity ultimately buys Seabourn is still a question.  What is not a rumor is that Saudi Public Investment Fund (PIF) has (or had) a sizable investment in CCL (and I believe also NCLH).  At one time PIF owned about 8% of CCL, but I am not sure of the current percentage of their investment.  It also gets more complicated because there has recently been some major CCL stock purchases by a few large hedge funds.  PIF (the huge Saudi investment fund) also invests in various hedge funds (like Blackrock).  Some say that PIF has more than $700 Billion in investments (which might be an understatement);

 

No question the Saudis have some interest in the cruise industry.  But whether they eventually buy a cruise line, start their own cruise line, or simply invest in existing cruise lines is all a big question.  There is also a major complication for cruises that stop (or would operate out of) Saudi ports...which is the sale/use of alcohol.  

 

Last year CNBC had an interesting article about the Saudis and Seabourn:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/24/saudi-fund-in-early-talks-to-potentially-buy-carnivals-ultra-luxury-seabourn-brand.html

 

 

Hank

[Guest ldtr]

11 hours ago, mwj said:

At the end of March, Carnival Corp. in its Q1 earnings report said it had $32.6 billion in long-term debt, up from $9.6 billion at the end of 2019.

 

Given what has happened with golf (PGA, LIV, DP merge under Saudi), I think that all the groups (Carnival UK, HAL, Aida, Costa) except Carnival and Princess are fair game for purchase by the Saudi's.

 

Except the Saudi sovereign wealth fund usually does not buy and run things.  They usually invest in businesses run by others, mostly large but minority positions such as with Tesla.

 

The golf effort is a bit different, but mostly because it is an opportunity for sports washing, as well as the fact that the person leading the effort for them is a golf fanatic.

[breakiron]

If the Saudi's purchase Holland America or not, even if they don't I believe the writing is on the wall.  How Carnival Corp. does this nobody really knows.  They could always move the Pinnacle class ships to Princess and retire maybe the Grand Princess and the Golden Princess.  Just pure speculation on my part.  Definitely wouldn't be booking a HAL cruise for 2025 anytime soon even though they put the schedule out a few weeks ago.  I am booked on a 22 night cruise on the Oosterdam in January 2024.

[Haljo1935]

All the talk of selling to Saudi's, breaking apart, scrapping... makes me so sad. Nothing is perfect, but as I said before, I do love HAL, warts and all. The good exceeds the bad or I wouldn't be 4* and still booking.

I do know they've been scrambling to pull together a plan - focus groups, more targeted marketing, back to the basics, try new things... All signs of desperate reactionary behavior; it doesn't feel like proactive rebranding.

One of the saddest comments I read here is about selling to Saudi's (who are having a pi***ng contest) only for the loser to dismantle...ugh.

[Guest ldtr]

The sky is falling

the sky is falling

the sky is falling

 

Nope the sky is still there.

 

Rather unlikely that HAL will be sold to anyone.  CCL demonstrated that it was cash flow posiive when it cam to operations last quarter.  This next quarter they should show that they are cash flow positive over all, though they still might show paper losses due to depreciation.

 

HAL is positioning itself for a unique place in the CCL cruise companies.  It is not Princess light.  HAL is positioning itself with the smallest average ship size of the adult focused mass market  lines (Princess, Celebrity, and HAL).  It is positioning itself with the longest average itinerary length.  Certainly creating itineraries that are both  unique and fit the space between the itineraries that most cruise lines make and world cruises.  No one else is doing that.

 

No one would be interested in buying HAL if it was not profitable, and if it is profitable no reason for CCL to sell. The big three holding companies are not going to spend any capital on buying another line.  The non-cruise companies would have been much more likely to buy during the shutdown, or before it became clear that the business would return to pre-covid revenue levels.  A time wwhen the assets could have been purchased for a much lower price, such as with Azamara instead of now that the trend of recovery is clear.

 

Princess on the other hand is going with the largest average ship size of the 3 US adult focused mass market lines.  While it has a longer average itinerary length that Celebrity, it is much shorter than HAL.  Princess ships are getting larger with the Sun class and following Celebrity into the world of tiered classes with separate dining and lounge areas for upper class cabins.  With increasing average ship sizes the future Princess itineraries will become more limited in the ports that get visited and length of the cruises.

[OlsSalt]

^^^^ All very well-reasoned points ldtr, Thank you for sharing them.

 

The pre-covid HAL was becoming schizophrenic. The new HAL can succeed just as you pointed out. 

Smaller, leaner, and more experienced than any other competition out there for the mid-price longer, destination cruiser. There will always be a new crop of "older" passengers coming of age every year looking for this quieter brand of destination-emphasis cruising.

 

There is no reason at all HAL must grab younger passengers now with newer larger ships, by being glitzy, noisy, frenetic, and trendy.  While alienating their former solid older customer base at the same time.

 

Where else have I recently seen that exact same ploy play out? Badly.

[DCThunder]

I also find it hard to believe that HAL would have leaned into the "150th Anniversary of HAL Celebration" if the plan was to sell or otherwise shutter the line within 5 years.  I realize that the unexpected happens, but doing so seems counterintuitive to me.

Edited June 10, 2023 by DCThunder

[BermudaBound2014]

9 hours ago, ldtr said:

The sky is falling

the sky is falling

the sky is falling

 

Nope the sky is still there.

 

Agreed. Whatever happens, the sky is still here.

 

9 hours ago, ldtr said:

This next quarter they should show that they are cash flow positive over all, though they still might show paper losses due to depreciation.

 

Disagree. Next quarter they will show that they have lost more money and likely not just due to depreciation. Even CCL is admitting this. They state they will lose money for all of 2023.  I suspect it is the heavy burden of paying interest on their 34 Billion dollar loans that is most challenging.

 

9 hours ago, ldtr said:

No one would be interested in buying HAL if it was not profitable, and if it is profitable no reason for CCL to sell

 

Did you actually type that with a straight face? Your a smart guy, you know better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mary229]

19 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

I also find it hard to believe that HAL would have leaned into the "150th Anniversary of HAL Celebration" if the plan was to sell or otherwise shutter the line within 5 years.  I realize that the unexpected happens, but doing so seems counterintuitive to me.

I so agree. Many of their events and announcements this year look like separating from the pack.  I think the partnership with Seabourn makes a lot of sense.  HAL has the heritage and the itineraries, Seabourn has the small ships which HAL cruisers crave.  For very long, exotic and expensive voyages those smaller ships will be welcome addition.  I don’t think they would go the luxury route.  I could see seabourn hosting the themed journeys such as the culinary journey that seemed to have failed on HAL

[BermudaBound2014]

22 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

I also find it hard to believe that HAL would have leaned into the "150th Anniversary of HAL Celebration" if the plan was to sell or otherwise shutter the line within 5 years.  I realize that the unexpected happens, but doing so seems counterintuitive to me.

 

I'm curious why you believe this? 

 

Celebrating/Promoting the 150 years makes complete sense whether holding or selling.