Is Royal Caribbean building any small ships?

[alfaeric]

24 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Say for a minute RC rebuilt Voyager class to the same physical dimensions.

I bet they could squeeze out an extra 10-15k gross tons out of it using some lessons learned from Oasis/Icon class ships

??  The way ships are "weighed", it's all about interior volume, not actual weight.  So 140k GT is all about size.  Meaning it's +50% bigger than the 85k GT.  So taking 10-15k out of the ship will make it smaller- no longer the same dimensions as the Voyager ship.

 

The only dimension where a Voyager sized ship can expand to be short enough to fit under bridges is the width.  It will be interesting to see a 140k GT ship that's as long as a Voyager ship, but wide enough to cut the height to be capable of going to Baltimore and/or Tampa.

[smokeybandit]

7 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

??  The way ships are "weighed", it's all about interior volume, not actual weight.  So 140k GT is all about size.  Meaning it's +50% bigger than the 85k GT.  So taking 10-15k out of the ship will make it smaller- no longer the same dimensions as the Voyager ship.

 

The only dimension where a Voyager sized ship can expand to be short enough to fit under bridges is the width.  It will be interesting to see a 140k GT ship that's as long as a Voyager ship, but wide enough to cut the height to be capable of going to Baltimore and/or Tampa.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Squeezing in 10k-15k GT just based on a more creative use of interior space above the water line.

[RobInMN]

The Bridge of the Americas on the Panama Canal has the same height issues that we see for bridges in other ports. The Norwegian Bliss is the largest cruise ship to traverse the Panama Canal, but she had to go under Bridge of the Americas at low tide. I believe this is also the case for the Lions Gate Bridge in Vancouver. Clearance 200'.

The Neopanamax specifications are:

1200' 9" long, 160' 9" beam, 190' air draft (above water line), 50' draft (below water line).

Note that there are other limiting factors that would prevent a Voyager/Freedom or even Oasis class ship from using the Panama Cancel even if height wasn't an issue. For one, the life boats have to be internal to the hull line and cannot stick out over.

 

I believe that Neopanamax will be the maximum dimensions of Project Discovery. Could be smaller, not not bigger. Height may be limited further by bridges in other ports they want to service. I believe it will meet all Panama Canal specifications.

 

For reference:

Bliss is 168K tons, 1094' long with a 136' beam and carries ~4000 passengers. Air draft might be about 190'?

Radiance is 90K tons, 961' long, 105' beam, 2500 passengers. 172' air draft.

Voyager is 137 tons, 1020', 126' beam, 4000 maximum passengers. 208' air draft.

 

So, a larger, wider ship can have more passengers and more tonnage while still limiting the air draft.

 

RCB's article about Michael Bayley's comments on the Ultimate World Cruise seems to indicate that the next UWC might target a Project Discovery ship as it will be able to maximize the number of balcony cabins over the existing Radiance class.

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2024/07/12/royal-caribbean-will-do-another-world-cruise

And while previous comments from captains Q&A's have mentioned Voyager class, it appears that more recent comments have shifted more towards Radiance class size.

I think it's safe to say it will be between these 2 classes.

I am convinced that it will be LNG, like Utopia and Icon. and probably a maximum of 3000 passengers as there is a growing push back from some popular ports on ship size. 

 

I also think it will have self-contained tendering abilities like the Radiance class has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Squeezing in 10k-15k GT just based on a more creative use of interior space above the water line.

Not sure I can see enough space changes to fit under bridges and still have 3500-4000 capacity. And make sure there are enough cabins with balconies that people will pay a premium for. 

[PhillyFan33579]

6 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Voyager class 137K Tonnes. Edge 130k tones.  Every reference has been to VY  They still need ships that can fit into the smaller ports.  Jumping up in size  would put them too close to Quantum and reduce the ports.

Why do they need ships that can fit into smaller ports? I think RCI would be fine if at some point in the future they couldn’t cruise to smaller ports in the Caribbean and they could no longer sail from home ports like Tampa. Like any business you have to change over time to remain successful. I think RCI knows bigger ships sailing to private islands/beach clubs is the wave of the future when it comes to mainstream cruising and they are leading the way.  

[RobInMN]

8 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Why do they need ships that can fit into smaller ports? I think RCI would be fine if at some point in the future they couldn’t cruise to smaller ports in the Caribbean and they could no longer sail from home ports like Tampa. Like any business you have to change over time to remain successful. I think RCI knows bigger ships sailing to private islands/beach clubs is the wave of the future when it comes to mainstream cruising and they are leading the way.  

Read the RCB post I linked to. Michael Bayley has said that they will do another UWC, but they need a ship with more balconies. But also, a Voyager class ship is too big for most of the ports such a cruise would hit. MB implied Project Discovery may be that ship.

For the Caribbean, what you describe is definitely at least half of their future. Mega ships, mostly private ports or ports with private beach clubs. Without a new smaller class, that may be it. But it's not just all about the Caribbean. RCI operates in a number of places around the world that without a replacement class for the aging smaller classes (Including Voyager), they would need to abandon entirely. That does not make financial sense either. In the Caribbean, if they want another port they can bring 3-5 mega ships to per week, RCI can put up the money and work with the country to build an appropriate pier, and they might also build a beach club too. In many of the other areas of the globe that they operate, you are not going to do that for 1 or 2 ships every week or two over the coarse of only 5-6 months.

And if they are going to do another UWC, they are not going to do that to 150 ports that they might visit once every 5 years.

 

 

[Ken at the beach]

Just now, PhillyFan33579 said:

Why do they need ships that can fit into smaller ports? I think RCI would be fine if at some point in the future they couldn’t cruise to smaller ports in the Caribbean and they could no longer sail from home ports like Tampa. Like any business you have to change over time to remain successful. I think RCI knows bigger ships sailing to private islands/beach clubs is the wave of the future when it comes to mainstream cruising and they are leading the way.  

Think beyond the Caribbean

[PhillyFan33579]

16 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Think beyond the Caribbean

I understand your point, but RCI doesn’t need to cruise to all points of the world to be successful. I think it is pretty obvious that RCI is moving more towards the ship being the destination with going to their private islands/beach clubs a close second. RCI doesn’t need to cruise to ports around the world to be successful in the future. As a frequent cruiser I wish that was the case, but as a stockholder RCI needs to focus on generating as much revue as possible. 

[Ken at the beach]

Just now, PhillyFan33579 said:

I understand your point, but RCI doesn’t need to cruise to all points of the world to be successful. I think it is pretty obvious that RCI is moving more towards the ship being the destination with going to their private islands/beach clubs a close second. RCI doesn’t need to cruise to ports around the world to be successful in the future. As a frequent cruiser I wish that was the case, but as a stockholder RCI needs to focus on generating as much revue as possible. 

We will just have to agree to disagree on where Royal is heading.  

[PhillyFan33579]

3 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

We will just have to agree to disagree on where Royal is heading.  

Fair enough.Sooner or later it will become obvious where RCI is headed. Earlier this year when RCI was going to make a big announcement tomorrow, I was positive the announcement was going to be about the long rumored Project Discovery. Instead the announcement was they were going to build a seventh Oasis class ship, even though I had heard at multiple top tier events that Utopia would be the last Oasis class ship. Since that point I have come to believe that RCI will not build a smaller class ship similar to Vision or Radiance class ships. But ultimately time will tell where they are headed in the future. 

[Ken at the beach]

Just now, PhillyFan33579 said:

Fair enough.Sooner or later it will become obvious where RCI is headed. Earlier this year when RCI was going to make a big announcement tomorrow, I was positive the announcement was going to be about the long rumored Project Discovery. Instead the announcement was they were going to build a seventh Oasis class ship, even though I had heard at multiple top tier events that Utopia would be the last Oasis class ship. Since that point I have come to believe that RCI will not build a smaller class ship similar to Vision or Radiance class ships. But ultimately time will tell where they are headed in the future. 

I agree 100% that you won't see anything as small as Vision or Radiance class but ships thst small have never been mentioned. 

[alfaeric]

10 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Think beyond the Caribbean

Right now, the eastern Med cruises are on a Quantum ship, as are the cruises (various Atlantic) out of England.  So most of the major itineraries are already on a ship bigger than the Vision/Radiance class.

 

With the move that Amsterdam is making, that changes any need to be a smaller ship for Norway, too.

 

And a Quantum ship does down under, as well.

 

Other than Baltimore and Tampa's specific needs, what other itinerary actually needs a small ship?  I'm not asking if an itinerary is better with a small ship, but if it needs a small ship.  And I'm not asking about the random small port- but the general itinerary.  

 

We love small ships, too, but I see the reality is that even for what we used to sail small ships on, they can easily do it with a Quantum ship.

[Southern Dan]

Can Iceland accommodate Quantum class ships?  What about the inside passage route of Alaska?  Replacement ships to fit through the Panama Canal are necessary for repositioning too one would think unless they keep one Pacific fleet and one Caribbean/Atlantic year-to-year.  Guess that could be done…

[alfaeric]

3 minutes ago, Southern Dan said:

Can Iceland accommodate Quantum class ships?  What about the inside passage route of Alaska?  Replacement ships to fit through the Panama Canal are necessary for repositioning too one would think unless they keep one Pacific fleet and one Caribbean/Atlantic year-to-year.  Guess that could be done…

How many cruises go to Iceland?  Is it regular enough?  Although, I know the Explorer of the Seas visited Iceland a couple of years ago on it's way back to the US- so the *need* of a Vision/Radiance ship is already mitigated.

 

As for Alaska, do they really *need* to do the inside passage to make people happy?  Seems that they could leave that to Celebrity if they wanted to.

 

As for the Canal- sure.  But since Quantum ships somehow get to and from the Pacific already (they do change places).  Most of the Alaska ships stay in the Pacific.

 

Quantum ships service Alaska already, so the compromises you bring up are already accepted.

 

 

[latebuyer]

I’m not sure what people have against small ships. Its like they want royal caribbean to only have large ships.

[RobInMN]

1 hour ago, alfaeric said:

With the move that Amsterdam is making, that changes any need to be a smaller ship for Norway, too.

"Norway" can do Quantum class, but not the main draw fjords, and you are not doing Arctic Circle on a Quantum. And even without the environmental limitations, I doubt they'd be allowed to go to Flam or Geiranger. Starting next year, it will take a new class of ship before RC will be able to back to either of those ports anyway. I'm not totally sure if LNG even counts. Also, the Radiance class barely fits in Honningsvag, the pier is about 1/3rd the length of the ship as it is. 🙂 

 

1 hour ago, alfaeric said:

Right now, the eastern Med cruises are on a Quantum ship, as are the cruises (various Atlantic) out of England.  So most of the major itineraries are already on a ship bigger than the Vision/Radiance class.

Mediterranean or Caribbean or even elsewhere (like when RC was dong the Baltic), the different class ships may operate in the same area, but don't necessarily hit the same ports. Even the Voyager class ships hit ports that the Quantum class doesn't. Could be due to physical size, could be due to passenger count.

 

[SUgwoz]

14 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I’m not sure what people have against small ships. Its like they want royal caribbean to only have large ships.

Seems more are just pointing out they do not have to have small ships and continue to be successful.  There is several brands of cruise ships that currently supply exactly what people are requesting Royal to do.

 

 

 

[smokeybandit]

There is a large and vocal (ie, Pinnacles) group that prefers smaller ships (ie, Freedom or smaller)

 

They can't ignore that segment of the population even if they wanted to.

[RobInMN]

Captains: RC is working on Project Discovery. It will be a smaller ship

CC: RC will never do smaller ships again.

Captains: Project Discovery will be about Voyager size

CC: RC will only ever go bigger!

Michael Bayley: We hope to make an announcement about Project Discovery this year (2024)

CC: Project Discovery is dead, never happen

Captains: Project Discovery may be closer to Radiance class size

CC: RC will only do mega ships and will only go to their own private islands and places where they build a beach club.

MB: We will do another UWC, just a question of when, and we need a new ship class

CC: RC will never do another UWC and only build bigger ships, and only need to do Cariibean ports with them.

 

 

[alfaeric]

2 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

Captains: RC is working on Project Discovery. It will be a smaller ship

CC: RC will never do smaller ships again.

Captains: Project Discovery will be about Voyager size

CC: RC will only ever go bigger!

Michael Bayley: We hope to make an announcement about Project Discovery this year (2024)

CC: Project Discovery is dead, never happen

Captains: Project Discovery may be closer to Radiance class size

CC: RC will only do mega ships and will only go to their own private islands and places where they build a beach club.

MB: We will do another UWC, just a question of when, and we need a new ship class

CC: RC will never do another UWC and only build bigger ships, and only need to do Cariibean ports with them.

 

 

I don't know about you, but I would never consider Voyager class small.  

 

It would be great if it's Radiance class, but I've never heard of that suggestion.

[alfaeric]

30 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I’m not sure what people have against small ships. Its like they want royal caribbean to only have large ships.

I don't think people have anything against small ships, but are being realistic that small ships are more expensive per person to operate.  So it's hard to justify getting really small from a business standpoint.

[SUgwoz]

7 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

There is a large and vocal (ie, Pinnacles) group that prefers smaller ships (ie, Freedom or smaller)

 

They can't ignore that segment of the population even if they wanted to.

Why though?  Also say Project Discovery takes off, it will probably take a minimum of 6-10 years for them to have 2-3 ships.  How many of those pinnacles are still sailing 10-15 years from now?

[smokeybandit]

6 minutes ago, SUgwoz said:

Why though?  Also say Project Discovery takes off, it will probably take a minimum of 6-10 years for them to have 2-3 ships.  How many of those pinnacles are still sailing 10-15 years from now?

A lot. And the next generation of Pinnacles, also partial to smaller ships (like me) will be in place.

 

Another data point, it took only 4.5 years from the time the first Freedom class ship was ordered (Sept 2003) until they had all 3 Freedom class ships sailing (May 2008).

 

 

Edited July 15 by smokeybandit

[Charles4515]

41 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I’m not sure what people have against small ships. Its like they want royal caribbean to only have large ships.

I prefer small ships but Royal Caribbean does not. 

[smokeybandit]

Just now, Charles4515 said:

I prefer small ships but Royal Caribbean does not. 

If this was true they wouldn't be building a new class of smaller ships.