Sailing on the Zaandam, anyone here who understands the Jones Act?

[Sundiego]

We are booked on the 5/5/2006 Zaandam Alaska cruise R/T out of Seattle. After the cruise, we are flying home to San Diego. What I'm trying to sort out is BEFORE the Seattle cruise.

 

We decided to cruise up on the Zaandam repositioning cruise from San Diego to Vancouver, BC. It arrives in Vancouver on May 4. The ship then does an overnight cruise May 4 and arrives Seattle May 5, the same day it departs for Alaska at 4 pm. But we've been told by HAL that we cannot cruise between Vancouver, BC and Seattle because of the Jones Act. The HAL rep I spoke with said she didn't know how to explain the Jones Act, so I just let it go. We decided to just use another mode of transportation to get to Seattle for our May 5 cruise.

 

My question... I thought the Jones Act prohibited a pax from going btwn two American ports. As long as we disembark in Vancouver BC with our luggage, and embark the Zaandam later that day for a short trip to Seattle (and get off the ship in Seattle, then embark), what difference does it make? We're talking 3 segments, 3 different cabins. Doesn't this same Act affect pax who do the back-to-back cruises I read about on this board?

 

I'm hoping somebody here can explain this to me in plain English :)

 

Thanks!!!

[K&RCurt]

I believe the problem may be that if you do the Vancouver to Seattle segment you will IN EFFECT be taking the ship from San Diego to Seattle without going to a "remote foreign port" if Vancouver is not far enough away from Seattle to satisfy the provisions of the Jones Act.

 

Just a guess.

 

Back to Back cruises typically leave and return to the SAME port so no problem.

[Sundiego]

I believe the problem may be that if you do the Vancouver to Seattle segment you will IN EFFECT be taking the ship from San Diego to Seattle without going to a "remote foreign port" if Vancouver is not far enough away from Seattle to satisfy the provisions of the Jones Act.

 

Thanks for the reply! I'm still puzzled tho, because on the Seattle R/T Alaska cruise, the Zaandam makes a quick stop in Victoria as its foreign port. So the distance btwn Vancouver BC and Seattle doesn't seem like it would be the issue.

[lougee1043]

it has nothing to do with distance -- the law was origininally put in place to give an advantage to us flag ships by not making it necessary for them to touch a fgn port between us cities and forcing the non us flag carriers to do so-- today i believe there is only one us flag ship running between the usa and hawaill --- all other carriers must sail off into the middle of nowhere to touch an island in the pacific -- i think the island begins with an F but im not sure ---------------------- the law is really no longer valid but it has yet to repealed

[MikeT718]

I think the problem might be that you are then leaving Seattle then going directly to Alaska and that now becomes the problem (2 US ports back to back). If the ship stopped back in Can. for 4 hours it would be ok

[Jim Gallup]

sundiego,

 

First we need to get the names correct.

Many people talk about the Jones Act, but really mean the Passenger Services Act of 1896. The Jones Act governs working hours, pay, and conditions for American Sailors on American Flag Ships.

The Passenger Services Act was a clever - although failed - attempt to give a financial advantage to American flag Vessels. The ships all went bankrupt anyway, but the laws are still on the books and still valid.

If you Google the Passenger Services Act, you can read the entire thing - and the many revisions over the years. The special provisions for Far Foreign Ports and Near Foreign Ports are the ones that are giving you your problems.

 

There is no negotiating with the US Customs Service, who administers the Act - and the fines for violating it. But if you really must take this cruise, the fine is US$300 per person. HAL may agree to take you if you are willing to pay the fine.

But there ie one additional caveat. When the Captain of a vessel violates the Passenger Services Act, US Customs makes a notation on his license. These notations are looked at like points against a driving license. If you get too many points, you lose your license. Most Captains are not willing to risk their careers to allow you to break an out of date American Law.

[Sundiego]

Jim, thanks for clarifying the name of the Act for me. I have no desire to violate the terms nor to pay a fee, lol. We've already got acceptable arrangements in place. I am just trying to understand exactly what it is about the proposed 3 segments that violates the act. I'm still not clear. I was hoping one of the experienced cruisers here might be able to spell it out for me.

[trubey]

Perhaps because there is no way to be assured that you actually do get off the ship, even for a few hours? susana.

[jhannah]

Well, they can confirm that via the insertion of your cruise card in the reader at the gangway.

[Sundiego]

Okay, I *finally* talked to a supervisor at HAL who explained this to me:

 

• A one-way cruise between US ports must stop at another CONTINENT
  
• A one-way cruise US port to foreign port has no restrictions
  
• A round-trip between US port and US port must stop in another COUNTRY

Since our intention is to go from San Diego to Seattle (even though we do it via Vancouver BC with multiple booking numbers, changing cabins, etc.), we would still fall under the definition of "one-way cruise between US ports" and therefore we wouldn't meet the CONTINENT rule.

 

Thanks again for the responses.

[Sopwith]

I just thought I'd add a perspective from the outside looking in. Over the past 20 years, Vancouver has developed a booming cruise ship industry. It injects several hundred million (US) dollars per year into the local economy and employs thousands of people. This would probably not have happened if it wasn't for the Passenger Services Act, which caused the major cruise ship operators to base many of their ships in Vancouver.

 

I have benefited personally from this industry, having provided engineering services for both the Canada Place and Ballantyne Pier cruise ship terminals.

 

So, we Canadians thank you. Now...if we could just sort out the softwood lumber matter, we'd be even happier.

[grannynurse]

I didn't know about the "continent" statement in the act.

We had been anticipating extending our round trip Seattle on the Westerdam to include Seattle to vancouver and vancouver to LA. I guess we're outta luck.

Another continent hmmmm....

GN

[caviargal]

sundiego,

 

First we need to get the names correct.

Many people talk about the Jones Act, but really mean the Passenger Services Act of 1896. The Jones Act governs working hours, pay, and conditions for American Sailors on American Flag Ships.

The Passenger Services Act was a clever - although failed - attempt to give a financial advantage to American flag Vessels. The ships all went bankrupt anyway, but the laws are still on the books and still valid.

If you Google the Passenger Services Act, you can read the entire thing - and the many revisions over the years. The special provisions for Far Foreign Ports and Near Foreign Ports are the ones that are giving you your problems.

 

There is no negotiating with the US Customs Service, who administers the Act - and the fines for violating it. But if you really must take this cruise, the fine is US$300 per person. HAL may agree to take you if you are willing to pay the fine.

But there ie one additional caveat. When the Captain of a vessel violates the Passenger Services Act, US Customs makes a notation on his license. These notations are looked at like points against a driving license. If you get too many points, you lose your license. Most Captains are not willing to risk their careers to allow you to break an out of date American Law.

 

Jim, I just handled this situation for a client last week and NCL charged $400pp.

[surfklutz]

Yep - Jones act requires that you either be American Registry - then you can call on all American ports - or you have to touch a foreign port from a US port before returning to a US port.

 

If the ship is American registry - then they have to have American Crew- which makes it much more expensive -

[bob brown]

I guess there is an exception for short "cruises to nowhere" that leave and return without stopping at any other port?

[surfklutz]

I guess there is an exception for short "cruises to nowhere" that leave and return without stopping at any other port?

 

They can't go to another port in the US - so cruises to nowhere are fine with the Jones Act. As long as they go out and back into the same port.

[sail7seas]

To go from a U.S. port to a U.S. port with no intervening foreign port makes the trip 'transportation'. The ship has 'transported' you from a U.S. city to a U.S. city which is permitted only by a U.S. flagged ship. No HAL ships are U.S. flagged.....(nor are Carnival, Princess,Costa, Cunard, Celebrity, RCI, etc etc). This same Passenger Service Act pertains to air travel. No foreign carrier can take a passenger directly from one U.S. airport to another U.S. airport without an intervening stop in a foreign location.

 

We are allowed to travel on such itineraries as FLL, Nassau, St. Maarten, HMC, Key West, FLL. But among the necessary terms that must be met is that ALL passengers on the ship have done the whole complete itinerary. You cannot do that itinerary by beginning in FLL and ending in Miami as (in the end) the ship would ultimately have transported you from a U.S. city to another U.S. city. When you go roundtrip FLL to FLL, they consider you have gone nowhere. You are back to where you began.

 

When someone becomes ill and must have a medical evacuation, permission must be granted for that passenger to leave as it would violate Passenger Services Act if ALL passengers do not complete the whole itinerary with permission for special medical need.

 

There are large fines attached to violations.

 

It becomes a lot more complicated as there are definitions of near foreign port and distant and it doesn't necessarily pertain to nautical miles.

 

Most people feel this Act should be done away with (including me) as pertains to cruise ships. It doesn't serve any useful purpose. Some of the hangup about it is in terms of how it applies to air carriers. Also, I am under the impression the good Senator from Hawaii is quite definite about leaving the act in place because of something to do with cruises around the islands of Hawaii.

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

deleted by poster

[sail7seas]

They can't go to another port in the US - so cruises to nowhere are fine with the Jones Act. As long as they go out and back into the same port.

 

 

Yes....I suppose 'gambling cruises' from coastal cities fall into that category. I know there is a party boat that sails from a seaport near us for nightly 5-6 hour cruises. They go beyond the however many mile limit and open the casino. Stay beyond the limit for a certain number of hours and then return to the dock from which they left.

 

[richwmn]

Hi Sundiego, we have a small group for the 5/5 Alaska cruise on the roll call board, hope you can join us

 

Rich

[Sundiego]

Hi Sundiego, we have a small group for the 5/5 Alaska cruise on the roll call board, hope you can join us

 

Rich

 

Hi Rich. Thanks for the invite! I did see your posts on the roll call board. I'll be sure to check in over there :)

 

Denise

[YYC F/A]

No foreign carrier can take a passenger directly from one U.S. airport to another U.S. airport without an intervening stop in a foreign location.

 

 

Not being nitpicky, but this is not strictly true. Several foreign registered airlines fly domestic legs in the US as part of an international itinerary. You can fly from Houston to Chicago and v.v. on British Airways, and you can fly from Los Angeles to New York and v.v. on Qantas. The only caveat is that to do so, you must have an onward ticket from Chicago to London / LA - Sydney etc.

 

In any event, I remain confused about the Passenger Service Act. The supervisor at HAL who stated that one way cruises must make a stop at a different CONTINENT. Well, last time I checked, Mexico was part of the same continent as Canada and the USA (N. America), and Canada most certainly is the same continent as the USA! So I'd question the veracity of that statement.

 

I also can't understand why the OP can't do her itinerary as posted. I understand that San Diego to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Seattle makes for an overall San Diego-Seattle journey. But in both instances, the ship is sailing from a port in one country to a port in another.

 

You can go New York - Southampton - New York without an issue. So why is Vancouver different from Southampton? If it is because it is not a 'remote foreign port', then in that case no one would be able to sail on the Vancouver - Seattle sailing, which is obviously not the case.

 

Confused :confused:

[Sundiego]

In any event, I remain confused about the Passenger Service Act. The supervisor at HAL who stated that one way cruises must make a stop at a different CONTINENT. Well, last time I checked, Mexico was part of the same continent as Canada and the USA (N. America), and Canada most certainly is the same continent as the USA! So I'd question the veracity of that statement.

 

I also can't understand why the OP can't do her itinerary as posted. I understand that San Diego to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Seattle makes for an overall San Diego-Seattle journey. But in both instances, the ship is sailing from a port in one country to a port in another.

Confused :confused:

The supervisor said:

• A one-way cruise between US ports must stop at another CONTINENT
  
• A one-way cruise US port to foreign port has no restrictions
  
• A round-trip between US port and US port must stop in another COUNTRY

So, using the HAL Supervisor's explanation, the only time another "continent" comes into play is a ONE WAY cruise btwn US ports, for example San Diego to Seattle (which would be our intention, therefore we cannot do it because the ship would only be stopping in another *country*, Canada).

 

The example you're giving about Mexico and Canada being the same continent still meets the criteria that the supervisor set out for me. They each serve as the qualifying "country" when one is sailing R/T US Port to US Port.