Smokey on Iona

[molecrochip]

56 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

When we were on Britannia in July, there was a suite a few doors down that had a mobility scooter parked outside of it whenever the occupants were there (including all night). I was quite surprised about that as I thought P&O made it clear that you had to keep them within the cabin. It was a large scooter and it wasn’t an accessible suite, so wouldn’t have fitted inside. I didn’t say anything but the fire risk did cross my mind. 

Very recently P&O have started tagging mobility scooters at checkin to show they are permitted aboard. This follows checking the person has an appropriate cabin.

 

No tag, no boarding. Yes, I have seen people refused because of it, no refund.

 

As for a review, the immediate understanding of what happened will already of happened. Most likely cause of damage is that someone has dropped the battery.

[scooby1]

2 minutes ago, david63 said:

Was this an actual incident or was it an exercise?

 

I find it a little strange that the battery is on its own in the middle of the atrium and that there does not appear to be anybody else about other than crew.

I think it must have started smoking and someone detached it from the chair and left it there. At the beginning people were sat all around it on the chairs, that was until flames appeared and chunks of battery got fired across the floor towards people, fortunately not hurting anyone to my knowledge. 
 

A few people had to be helped out if their seats to a safe distance, but it was then clear the battery was escalating and getting worse and the crew started to point the extinguishes at it. To be frank these did nothing much, which is why then the area was quickly cleared and closed. The battery was eventually moved to the dock. The smell is something else and was at least 24hrs later in the atrium and is still there but far less. 

[zap99]

37 minutes ago, scooby1 said:

Seems that is what some would prefer. Cruising pre pandemic there were far fewer mobility scooters or electrical things at all. The last two cruises this year things have massively increased. Thus the potential for an incident goes up hand and glove with that. 
 

I’m genuinely should that many see this as not a growing problem. We are on Iona now and the smell days later is still there if you go past the same spot. Imagine that around cabins and the danger of far more flammable items that could go up escalating the situation. 
 

Hope what we had on Iona whilst in dock nobody else has to go through. Seems many are just happy to ‘see what happens’ which seems on as the fire is the worst thing you would ever want at see. 

Several weeks ago ,after seeing the videos of escooters catching fire, I asked the question on here about charging the batteries on mobility scooters and wheelchairs. I can't recall a definitive answer.

[Selbourne]

2 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

Very recently P&O have started tagging mobility scooters at checkin to show they are permitted aboard. This follows checking the person has an appropriate cabin.

 

No tag, no boarding. Yes, I have seen people refused because of it, no refund.

 

As for a review, the immediate understanding of what happened will already of happened. Most likely cause of damage is that someone has dropped the battery.

 
Interesting and makes sense, so I wonder why the occupants of that suite weren’t denied boarding? As I say, it wasn’t an accessible suite and it was a large scooter so was never going to fit inside the cabin, which I thought was the requirement. This was only 3 months ago. Have these checks only started since then?

[zap99]

21 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

You missed the /s

 

What is your solution? Ban all powered wheelchairs? Because it is either that or nothing.

 

 

Some people just recognise that a 'something must be done, and doing that is something' attitude isn't always the best.

When there is an incident in a commercial organisation the companies ISO 7001 precedure will require " review ". Sometimes that review leads to a conclusion that has unpleasant consequences. If a review in this case resulted in a ban, until a better solution was found, that is unfortunate, but I'm sure folk with mobility issues cruised before Lithium batteries.

[molecrochip]

5 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

 
Interesting and makes sense, so I wonder why the occupants of that suite weren’t denied boarding? As I say, it wasn’t an accessible suite and it was a large scooter so was never going to fit inside the cabin, which I thought was the requirement. This was only 3 months ago. Have these checks only started since then?

I think it’s post summer that it’s been implemented following a number of issues over the summer season.

[zap99]

9 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

Very recently P&O have started tagging mobility scooters at checkin to show they are permitted aboard. This follows checking the person has an appropriate cabin.

 

No tag, no boarding. Yes, I have seen people refused because of it, no refund.

 

As for a review, the immediate understanding of what happened will already of happened. Most likely cause of damage is that someone has dropped the battery.

If a review has already identified the cause, well done P&O.No doubt your procedures will be amended to reduce the probability of a recurrence

[molecrochip]

2 minutes ago, zap99 said:

If a review has already identified the cause, well done P&O.No doubt your procedures will be amended to reduce the probability of a recurrence

Not necessarily. It may be that any review considers the frequency of incidence as low enough and therefore the fire procedures in place are more than sufficient to handle.

 

From the swift resolution, this is likely, I would suggest.

 

But a good example of why these batteries/scooters are not kept in passage ways. It’s easier to contain an incident in a cabin until the surrounding cabins have been evacuated.

[scooby1]

Just now, molecrochip said:

Not necessarily. It may be that any review considers the frequency of incidence as low enough and therefore the fire procedures in place are more than sufficient to handle.

 

From the swift resolution, this is likely, I would suggest.

 

But a good example of why these batteries/scooters are not kept in passage ways. It’s easier to contain an incident in a cabin until the surrounding cabins have been evacuated.

Agreed there should be standards and protocols that need to be strictly followed. 
 

It’s good they are already reviewing things this incident is obviously not the only one. 
 

The unthinkable is one of these quickly takes over in a corridor at night. People can see getting out of their cabin there isn’t much space to fight the fire / incident and the fire retardant itself as you can see from the picture reduces vision. 
 

If a few people are immobile in the cabin that then also might need 2 or more crew each to help them out, things escalated quickly as people maybe have to route along the balcony not into corridor. Anyone let’s hope that never happens, the post smell would be enough to put anyone off as well the acrid smell is not one that fades quickly. 

[paularmstrong]

The battery pack looks more like the mobility scooter type -shape not a powerchair , it would be very odd for it to be just left in middle of walkway , these cannot just fall off 

[zap99]

1 hour ago, Harry Peterson said:

Sometimes, practicalities have to be considered along with safety considerations. Crossing the road is very risky, but we do it because it’s necessary. The fact that incidents like this haven’t featured before suggests they’re very rare indeed, and it would surely be disproportionate to ban all battery scooters, wheelchairs etc..

 

Anything with a battery in it has the potential for causing a fire, but you can’t ban everything.

Minimising the risk is the jargon. If you know there is a fire risk,  minimise that risk.

[Harry Peterson]

Just now, zap99 said:

Minimising the risk is the jargon. If you know there is a fire risk,  minimise that risk.

Fair point, Zap, and I’d be very surprised if they don’t have protocols in place to do that. If not, I’d guess their insurers would have some issues! 
 

I’m not well up on these scooters, wheelchairs etc, but improperly handled or charged lithium batteries will always present risks. Using unauthorised replacement batteries and/or chargers is a recipe for disaster, and you could consider some sort of inspection routine, but my guess is that whilst it might satisfy the lawyers it probably wouldn’t be terribly effective at spotting fakes. I have no idea what the best solution might be.

[zap99]

8 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Fair point, Zap, and I’d be very surprised if they don’t have protocols in place to do that. If not, I’d guess their insurers would have some issues! 
 

I’m not well up on these scooters, wheelchairs etc, but improperly handled or charged lithium batteries will always present risks. Using unauthorised replacement batteries and/or chargers is a recipe for disaster, and you could consider some sort of inspection routine, but my guess is that whilst it might satisfy the lawyers it probably wouldn’t be terribly effective at spotting fakes. I have no idea what the best solution might be.

You can never , in a practical world completely eliminate a risk. Reading  Moley's post P&O seem to have it in hand.

[paularmstrong]

There is a British mobility company selling cheap chinese mobility scooters that use untested lithium batteries , their own warehouse caught fire a few weeks ago that stored said batteries . Who knows how many of these are out in the field .  

[TigerB]

There has been mention on this thread about media attention to e-scooter fires.  Such fires are of no real surprise, given that, in the last few years the UK market has been flooded with unregulated scooters that are illegal to use in this country, many of which would probably have been charged incorrectly.

In my opinion, lithium powered wheelchairs are a different kettle of fish. A user, when paying several thousand pounds for something that is essential to their mobility and quality of life, something that they expect will serve them them for a few years, is almost certainly going to make sure they have done their research, and will buy a chair manufactured from a reputable company, and from a reputable dealer. I would also expect that they will also make sure they use recommended batteries and an appropriate charger, and correctly. No sane person is going to have such a laissez-faire attitude as the idiot parent who buys an e-scooter for their child to ride illegally down the high street.

 

To call for an immediate ban of lithium battery powered wheelchairs on ships, aeroplanes, and other modes of transport, is a knee-jerk reaction, and I am reassured by the response of @molecrochip that P&O have procedures in place, and it is not warranted at this time.

 

Further to the above, as the husband and carer of a user of a lithium battery powered wheelchair, I would welcome additional checks by P&O, to mitigate risk to all their passengers and crew. I don't know how they could do that. Perhaps, when submitting the special assistance form, the passenger also submits proof that the wheelchair chair was purchased from a reputable dealer, has been serviced annually, uses batteries that are suitable and recommended by the manufacturer, and has an appropriate charger. When boarding, the documents could be checked against the wheelchair and accessories referred to. No match = no boarding.   

 

 

 

[TigerB]

36 minutes ago, paularmstrong said:

There is a British mobility company selling cheap chinese mobility scooters that use untested lithium batteries , their own warehouse caught fire a few weeks ago that stored said batteries . Who knows how many of these are out in the field .  

 

What's the name of that company?

[paularmstrong]

Dont want to name names but sounds like costco , if you google name with fire it brings it up

[9265359]

2 hours ago, zap99 said:

If a review in this case resulted in a ban, until a better solution was found, that is unfortunate, but I'm sure folk with mobility issues cruised before Lithium batteries.

 

I do hope that wasn't a serious answer.

[zap99]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

I do hope that wasn't a serious answer.

Yes, it was.

[amajaa]

1 hour ago, TigerB said:

There has been mention on this thread about media attention to e-scooter fires.  Such fires are of no real surprise, given that, in the last few years the UK market has been flooded with unregulated scooters that are illegal to use in this country, many of which would probably have been charged incorrectly.

In my opinion, lithium powered wheelchairs are a different kettle of fish. A user, when paying several thousand pounds for something that is essential to their mobility and quality of life, something that they expect will serve them them for a few years, is almost certainly going to make sure they have done their research, and will buy a chair manufactured from a reputable company, and from a reputable dealer. I would also expect that they will also make sure they use recommended batteries and an appropriate charger, and correctly. No sane person is going to have such a laissez-faire attitude as the idiot parent who buys an e-scooter for their child to ride illegally down the high street.

 

To call for an immediate ban of lithium battery powered wheelchairs on ships, aeroplanes, and other modes of transport, is a knee-jerk reaction, and I am reassured by the response of @molecrochip that P&O have procedures in place, and it is not warranted at this time.

 

Further to the above, as the husband and carer of a user of a lithium battery powered wheelchair, I would welcome additional checks by P&O, to mitigate risk to all their passengers and crew. I don't know how they could do that. Perhaps, when submitting the special assistance form, the passenger also submits proof that the wheelchair chair was purchased from a reputable dealer, has been serviced annually, uses batteries that are suitable and recommended by the manufacturer, and has an appropriate charger. When boarding, the documents could be checked against the wheelchair and accessories referred to. No match = no boarding.   

 

 

 

 

I think you might be being a bit naive thinking that noone that needs a mobility scooter will go for a bargain if they see it or buy one second hand without actually knowing it's background. 

[9265359]

1 hour ago, zap99 said:

Yes, it was.

 

You really want those in a wheelchair to be denied the possibility to travel because of such an infinitesimally tiny probability of occurrence, and a risk that P&O have satisfied themselves that they have addressed.

 

However if the risk concerns you so much then perhaps it is you that should stay at home and not travel.

[Megabear2]

Fascinating subject this one, I'm not on either side here, just did some research out of interest in a spare 20 minutes.

 

I had no idea that all local authorities have stringent rules and regulations on mobility scooters (not motorised wheelchairs which are acknowledged as a medical aid). The fire risk on older models as opposed to newer lithium models has been under discussion since the mid 2000's.   Basically specific rules are in place covering in particular blocks of flats, care homes and shared home environments.  The important point is the speed of combustion and prevention of blockage of corridors - certainly a major consideration for cruise ships.  Sadly there are various fire brigade documents showing fatalities from mobility scooter fires.

 

The attached has many interesting points including the speed of a fire developing and the smoke inhalation risk.

09062018_NFCC_Mobility_Scooter_Guidance_Final.pdf.pdf

[zap99]

3 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

You really want those in a wheelchair to be denied the possibility to travel because of such an infinitesimally tiny probability of occurrence, and a risk that P&O have satisfied themselves that they have addressed.

 

However if the risk concerns you so much then perhaps it is you that should stay at home and not travel.

Perhaps folk who use wheel chairs cruised before Lithium batteries. I am sure if the ship catches fire, they would be at the greater risk. Us risk takers could just jump overboard. This started by you saying It was a waste of time reviewing incidents like a battery pack catching fire on a cruise ship.

[scooby1]

@Megabear2 Great post, there is a balance but when it’s a few people that might have to change a chair or look at other options vs 5000+ souls at risk I’m not sure the balance is quite right at the moment. Something they look like they are reviewing and the incident on Iona will only add to that process I’m sure. 
 

 

[9265359]

3 minutes ago, zap99 said:

Perhaps folk who use wheel chairs cruised before Lithium batteries.

 

A lot of things used to happen in the past that most people wouldn't want to happen now - and depriving people of their independence is one of them.

 

4 minutes ago, zap99 said:

This started by you saying It was a waste of time reviewing incidents like a battery pack catching fire on a cruise ship.

 

Yes, because other than a review of the fire fighting which was already being undertaken, the other suggestions were poorly thought out ideas that would achieve nothing.