Smokey on Iona

[zap99]

4 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

A lot of things used to happen in the past that most people wouldn't want to happen now - and depriving people of their independence is one of them.

 

 

Yes, because other than a review of the fire fighting which was already being undertaken, the other suggestions were poorly thought out ideas that would achieve nothing.

Pass.

[terrierjohn]

5 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

Sometimes, practicalities have to be considered along with safety considerations. Crossing the road is very risky, but we do it because it’s necessary. The fact that incidents like this haven’t featured before suggests they’re very rare indeed, and it would surely be disproportionate to ban all battery scooters, wheelchairs etc..

 

Anything with a battery in it has the potential for causing a fire, but you can’t ban everything.

Very true Harry, and of course we are being pushed towards EVs, so battery power is going to be a major part of our future. However safety regulations will need to keep up with this higher usage, and battery manufactures will need to be closely monitored to ensure their production control is well up to standard.

[terrierjohn]

3 hours ago, paularmstrong said:

There is a British mobility company selling cheap chinese mobility scooters that use untested lithium batteries , their own warehouse caught fire a few weeks ago that stored said batteries . Who knows how many of these are out in the field .  

I imagine that the majority of the newer mobility scooters and chairs are of Chinese origin, and even more will use Chinese manufactured batteries. It really is up to trading standards, or whichever govt dept handle imports, to ensure that they all meet current standards and there is regulat testing.

[laslomas]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

 

The attached has many interesting points including the speed of a fire developing and the smoke inhalation risk.

09062018_NFCC_Mobility_Scooter_Guidance_Final.pdf.pdf 711.23 kB · 1 download

 

After reading that attachment, especially the part about toxic smoke, I think I would pass comment to Guest Services if a mobility scooter was being left in the corridor, especially if overnight. It really should not be happening.

Edited October 24, 2023 by laslomas

[Megabear2]

4 hours ago, paularmstrong said:

There is a British mobility company selling cheap chinese mobility scooters that use untested lithium batteries , their own warehouse caught fire a few weeks ago that stored said batteries . Who knows how many of these are out in the field .  

You are assumedly talking about the fire in Great Notley.  The fire brigade stated it was accidental and the investigation is ongoing, no mention of them being untested lithium batteries and "cheap" is relative, many of the models they sell are way over £1,500. As an example of "cheap" Argos for instance has scooters from £600 so in fairness the company who had the fire are not "cheap".

 

The distinction that needs to be made in any discussion is between powered wheelchairs which are mobility aids covered by law and mobility scooters which anyone can go out and purchase, mobility impaired or not. A few years back the tabloid press were scattered with stories of young able bodied people using these types of scooter to go down the pub and get drunk so they could ride back!

 

We have members here on the forum who were refused use of their foldaway mobility scooters and had to hire a motorised wheelchair from the company P&O has an agreement with.  

 

Some have commented that people are suggesting "wheelchair" users are being spoken about in this thread, that is not the case, those people are safely covered by law 

and assumedly this is why P&O insist accessible cabins are the only place any mobility aids are allowed.  

[TigerB]

2 hours ago, amajaa said:

 

I think you might be being a bit naive thinking that noone that needs a mobility scooter will go for a bargain if they see it or buy one second hand without actually knowing it's background. 

 

You've mis-quoted me; I did not use the word 'no-one'.

The phrases I used were...

[A user] is almost certainly going to make sure they have done their research...

and

I would also expect that they....

and

No sane person...

 

That said, if someone was to buy such an important piece of equipment second-hand, without completing due diligence, they are, in my opinion, a fool, and are taking a risk.

[indiana123]

12 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

this is why P&O insist accessible cabins are the only place any mobility aids are allowed.  

 

 

 

It depends on the aid.  I can get around a cabin and to the toilet, but cannot walk much further than that and I have never been asked to have an accessible cabin on  P & O, including IONA.  All welfare forms have always been filled out.  Admittedly my mobility scooter is very small, only 17  kilos, which we just fold up and put in the cabin.

Edited October 24, 2023 by indiana123

[Megabear2]

Just now, indiana123 said:

 

 

 

It depends on the aid.  I can get around a cabin and to the toilet, but cannot walk much further than that and I have never been asked to have an accessible cabin on  P & O, including IONA.  All welfare forms have always been filled out.  Admittedly mine is very small, only 17  kilos, which we just fold up and put in the cabin.

Assumedly yours is not a mobility aid as in the legal term, ie powered wheelchair.  I've had a fascinating afternoon looking at all the laws, not P&O rules and mobility scooters are apparently a different class of "vehicle" and not actually classed as a disability aid. Hence the special rules I mentioned which local councils and fire brigades work to.

[TigerB]

4 hours ago, paularmstrong said:

There is a British mobility company selling cheap chinese mobility scooters that use untested lithium batteries , their own warehouse caught fire a few weeks ago that stored said batteries . Who knows how many of these are out in the field .  

 

I recall the fire now, and read articles about it at the time.  I have today looked for other articles about it and in none of the articles, then or now, does it say the cause of the fire was due to untested batteries from China or anywhere else.

 

I read with interest the reasoned response from @Megabear2 in post #55, and agree about folk buying cheap mobility scooters for, in my opinion, no legitimate medical reason, but just out of sheer laziness, or seeking to obtain an advantage. 

[paularmstrong]

Indeed most scooters and batteries are manufactured in China , point being reputable dealers are using tried and tested products that have been around for years not ones sourced independently from manufacturers who are not . 

[indiana123]

1 minute ago, TigerB said:

and agree about folk buying cheap mobility scooters for, in my opinion, no legitimate medical reason, but just out of sheer laziness, or seeking to obtain an advantage. 

 

 

Apart from in Benidorm where it is well  known that many hire mobility scooters to get around even though ablebodied I doubt many would buy one just for the fun off it.   It is no fun, believe me.  I am bitterly  disappointed every day when I get out of bed and cannot walk properly  (due to someone elses negligence)

[TigerB]

2 minutes ago, indiana123 said:

 

 

Apart from in Benidorm where it is well  known that many hire mobility scooters to get around even though ablebodied I doubt many would buy one just for the fun off it.   It is no fun, believe me.  I am bitterly  disappointed every day when I get out of bed and cannot walk properly  (due to someone elses negligence)

 

The same can be said for America, I have witnessed folk at WDW, for example, using scooters due to, as I wrote, out of sheer laziness, or seeking to obtain an advantage.

 

I recall something that happened to us a few years ago when we we in the US.  A fella, who appeared to be fairly fit, well, he was walking well enough, upon seeing our lass in her power chair, called out, "I've gotta get one of those".  Our lass, sharp as a tack, shouted back at him, "You can have this one pal, it comes with a free life-limiting disability".  No response!  She then muttered something under her breath, questioning his parentage and vigour. 

[Megabear2]

13 minutes ago, indiana123 said:

 

 

Apart from in Benidorm where it is well  known that many hire mobility scooters to get around even though ablebodied I doubt many would buy one just for the fun off it.   It is no fun, believe me.  I am bitterly  disappointed every day when I get out of bed and cannot walk properly  (due to someone elses negligence)

I am sorry you have so many troubles and in no way wished to denigrate your situation.

 

The use I referred to started following a Prom stunt in Manchester which 10m people watched on social media. There then followed a spate of young people using the machines for transport.  There were a couple of high profile court cases where charges had to be dropped as mobility scooters are not vehicles and therefore the drunken passengers were charged under laws covering horse and carts and still couldn't stick.  

 

I've never been to Benidorm and was unaware of the trade you mentioned, I do however remember the young lady from Essex on the local news when I was up there proudly showing off her scooter bedecked with horns and sparkles.

[Trevor Fountain]

Perhaps cruise lines which accept mobility scooters on board, should think about supplying their own (or through a third party), for hire whilst on board, and booked at the time of the cabin booking.

This would minimise the risk caused by anyone bringing a substandard, or poorly maintained model on the ship.

[Megabear2]

2 minutes ago, Trevor Fountain said:

Perhaps cruise lines which accept mobility scooters on board, should think about supplying their own (or through a third party), for hire whilst on board, and booked at the time of the cabin booking.

This would minimise the risk caused by anyone bringing a substandard, or poorly maintained model on the ship.

I thought they already had an arrangement but the costs are unreasonably high and mobility scooter users found themselves with large motorised wheelchairs instead of their small machines?

 

If I recall there is a family who have been refused their child's motorised chair recently and P&O suggested the hire option. If I believe they upgraded to a full suite where their own aid could be used or something like that. I believe they are on a fly cruise and have been split from their friends on to different flights as well so no one to assist them without their electric mobility aid.

[indiana123]

5 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I thought they already had an arrangement but the costs are unreasonably high and mobility scooter users found themselves with large motorised wheelchairs instead of their small machines?

That  happened to me.  Cunard said I couldn't take my tiny one.  We  had to hire a motorised wheelchair from Mobility at Sea which cost £230 for about 12 days or so.  When we got to the terminal  OH was preparing to take the scooter back to the car, but it was laughable that the chair was more than double the size and weight of my scooter.  Staff agreed, photos were taken.  The outcome was that an Officer came off the ship, agreed, and all was well, I took my scooter, but lost the £230!

[indiana123]

I would be happy if the suggestion made above by Trevor Fountain materialised.  There would be an initial outlay of course but I would be prepared to pay reasonable hire charges.  I don't expect it will happen.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, paularmstrong said:

Indeed most scooters and batteries are manufactured in China , point being reputable dealers are using tried and tested products that have been around for years not ones sourced independently from manufacturers who are not . 

I would still expect that all imported batteries should be regularly tested and manufactured to a British or EU standard.

[paularmstrong]

Boeing never expected the lithium  batteries on dreamliners to ignite causing a complete grounding for months

[crompton21]

14 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

I would still expect that all imported batteries should be regularly tested and manufactured to a British or EU standard.

What sort of test are you expecting?  You can test a battery for strength with an understanding that over time it will degrade meaning that the strength of charge doesn’t indicate that it is actually faulty.  
What you cannot easily do is open up the battery and inspect inside .  The problem with lithium batteries is that failure of one part can lead to a rapidly escalating fire and there isn’t a quick way of inspecting the internal condition as the battery is a sealed unit.  

[terrierjohn]

5 hours ago, crompton21 said:

What sort of test are you expecting?  You can test a battery for strength with an understanding that over time it will degrade meaning that the strength of charge doesn’t indicate that it is actually faulty.  
What you cannot easily do is open up the battery and inspect inside .  The problem with lithium batteries is that failure of one part can lead to a rapidly escalating fire and there isn’t a quick way of inspecting the internal condition as the battery is a sealed unit.  

I imagine that if these sort of failures start to happen frequently, then govts will have to consider what steps they should take to resolve the problem, and if demanding more rigorous quality control is unlikely to prevent fires, they may have to ban the use of lithium batteries altogether.

Which of course seems highly unlikely considering the billions being spent worldwide on building battery plants for EV cars.

[paularmstrong]

Battery technology is rapidly advancing , lithium phosphate does seem the way to go ,problems are long term testing , people want lightweight but  maximum AH , do not want to pay the price tag and want them now

[Harry Peterson]

I wonder how owners of mobile phones, laptops, Kindles etc would react to a ban on their devices, almost all of which, and many more, contain lithium batteries? 
 

Smaller, certainly, but still more than capable of starting a major fire. 

[paularmstrong]

good point my other half had an iphone melt down whilst charging , it was sent back and was told the reason for this was not using Apple charger although it was

[nosapphire]

According to our local fire brigade, fires caused by overheated appliances using lithium batteries are very common, and investigation reveals the usual reason is a cheap unbranded or fake charger, charging cable, or sometimes replacement battery, frequently purchased from one of the on-line marketplaces.

This does not mean that a fault cannot develop in a "proper" appliance - just that it is not a common cause.

And, of course, most of us are reading/adding to this forum using a lithium battery powered device.

.

Attached link to an extremely interesting Govt website, which shows how much work is being done trying to control imports.

https://www.gov.uk/product-safety-alerts-reports-recalls