Syd’s: lines on Prima CRAZY

[KeithJenner]

On 1/19/2024 at 3:24 PM, graphicguy said:

That I understand.  But, to be able to say only 50 people can hear the performance, I can't imagine that's something anyone can control.  What about the people who are milling about outside the venue?  Do you have to account for them?  How about the people at the Syd Norman's Bar on the Waterfront?  Do you have to account for them, too?  How about the people casually walking by Syd Norman's?  Are they considered part of those who are hearing the performance?

 

Point being, I don't see how anyone can charge copyright fees based on the number of people who can hear the performance.  It would be impossible to enforce.

It would be simple to enforce.

 

The restriction wouldn’t be based on the number of people who could feasibility overhear the show, but could be based on the official capacity of the venue. Someone could licence the show to be played at specific venues, or at a venue with a capacity no more than 200, for example.

 

Venues generally have a stated capacity, for fire regulations etc, and I would be surprised if all of the entertainment venues on the ships don’t have these. Regardless. It would be very easy for the owners of the copyright to state the venues based on whatever criteria they chose.

 

I have no idea whether this happens, but it would be extremely simple for some such restriction to be put in place.

[graphicguy]

@KeithJenner…I don’t know! Maybe?  Maybe not?

[UKstages]

it's not a "copyright" issue. it's not a music licensing issue.

 

it's an artistic choice and a contract limitation based on that choice.

 

please see post #36.

 

the creators could decide to allow the show to be performed in other venues. we don't know if NCL has approached them to ask for that contract revision and if they said no... of if NCL has never asked. but the show was purpose built for a venue called syd's... think of the entirety of the club as the stage set for a theatrical experience. once one understands that, its easy to see why the creative team do not want the show performed in larger venues without all of syd's memorabilia. 

Edited January 20 by UKstages

[KeithJenner]

9 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

@KeithJenner…I don’t know! Maybe?  Maybe not?

To be clear, I’m not making any comment on whether there is a restriction, but if I’m licensing something like this then I can add any restriction I want (only at a venue called Syd Norman’s Pour House, only at a venue with a square footage below a certain amount, only at a venue with a capacity below a certain amount). If such a restriction is in place then it is certainly easy to enforce.

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, KeithJenner said:

To be clear, I’m not making any comment on whether there is a restriction, but if I’m licensing something like this then I can add any restriction I want (only at a venue called Syd Norman’s Pour House, only at a venue with a square footage below a certain amount, only at a venue with a capacity below a certain amount). If such a restriction is in place then it is certainly easy to enforce.

I am not privy to their contract arrangements for entertainment.  So, I really don't know.  

[KeithJenner]

3 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I am not privy to their contract arrangements for entertainment.  So, I really don't know.  

I honestly never thought you did. Neither do I, and that has no bearing on my posts.

 

I'm only discussing this (and I think we are discussing, not arguing?) because your posts suggested that you couldn't see how they could police any restriction, so I'm suggesting ways that they easily could.

 

Whether they do or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion that you and I are having, but I think that its is quite clear that they could if they wanted to.

[UKstages]

3 hours ago, KeithJenner said:

Whether they do or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion that you and I are having, but I think that its is quite clear that they could if they wanted to.

 

enforce a restriction or contractual term? yes, indeed. easy peasy.

 

as for all the rest, it depends on who "they" is... if "they" is chris d’arenso (the playwright) along with the producing entity that came up with the concept, the answer is yes, they could authorize the show to be performed in other venues, or other sized venues, if they so chose.

 

if the "they" is NCL, no they can't perform the "syd" musical revues in another venue without the creative team's permission.

 

can they perform individual songs normally heard in the pour house in the theater using some of the same performers? absolutely! nothing stopping them from singing those songs in the theater or the atrium or at a sail away party. presumably, NCL is fully licensed through ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. what they can't do is perform a collection of songs normally heard in the pour house (with or without the "character" identities and associated banter) if it would make people think that it's an ad hoc syd norman's "lite" show.

[ontheweb]

Why would the line be longer on the Prima than the other NCL ships that have the Syd's Pour House? Don't the other ships that have this larger, with more passengers? Unless the Syd's Pour House is physically smaller on the Prima, wouldn't it logically follow that the lines should be shorter?

[KeithJenner]

12 hours ago, UKstages said:

 

enforce a restriction or contractual term? yes, indeed. easy peasy.

 

as for all the rest, it depends on who "they" is... if "they" is chris d’arenso (the playwright) along with the producing entity that came up with the concept, the answer is yes, they could authorize the show to be performed in other venues, or other sized venues, if they so chose.

 

if the "they" is NCL, no they can't perform the "syd" musical revues in another venue without the creative team's permission.

 

can they perform individual songs normally heard in the pour house in the theater using some of the same performers? absolutely! nothing stopping them from singing those songs in the theater or the atrium or at a sail away party. presumably, NCL is fully licensed through ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. what they can't do is perform a collection of songs normally heard in the pour house (with or without the "character" identities and associated banter) if it would make people think that it's an ad hoc syd norman's "lite" show.

"They" is both NCL and whoever is licensing the show (I have no knowledge, and absolutely no interest in who that is). I don't know whether "they" have any restrictions in the agreement they have. I only really have a very vague idea of what this show actually is.

 

I seem to be struggling to get across what I am saying here. I am making just one very small point. graphicguy said that he didn't think that a restriction could be enforceable because you can't measure how many people may be able to hear the show (which you certainly can't). My only point is that there are a large number of other restrictions that could be used, and would be very easily enforceable (size of venue etc). That is all.

 

Whether there are any such restrictions or not, I neither know nor care. I'm not commenting on that.

[graphicguy]

34 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Why would the line be longer on the Prima than the other NCL ships that have the Syd's Pour House? Don't the other ships that have this larger, with more passengers? Unless the Syd's Pour House is physically smaller on the Prima, wouldn't it logically follow that the lines should be shorter?

Yeah...as best I can tell, Syd's is more or less the same size on the ships I've been on.  I think the difference is world of mouth has travelled that the Syd's shows are very good shows.  As such, their lines have grown.

 

Although, it doesn't sound like they're all that bad if you only have to wait 30 minutes or so.

[Liljo22]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Why would the line be longer on the Prima than the other NCL ships that have the Syd's Pour House? Don't the other ships that have this larger, with more passengers? Unless the Syd's Pour House is physically smaller on the Prima, wouldn't it logically follow that the lines should be shorter?

Syd’s is significantly smaller on the Prima than other ships.  It’s rumored that they are going to move it on the Aqua to make it bigger.  I mentioned in my review that they should swap sides with the Improv and make the Metropolitan bar smaller.  

Edited January 21 by Liljo22

[PATRLR]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:14 AM, graphicguy said:

 You can't do both.  Have dinner in LaCucina and get in line for the show.  

 

This is what creates ill feelings between passengers on a cruise.

 

I can see having to use the restroom and need to leave the line for 5 minutes.  But, I personally will call you out and not allow you to cut in line in front of me for any other reason.

Agree 100%! Well said.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Yeah...as best I can tell, Syd's is more or less the same size on the ships I've been on.  I think the difference is world of mouth has travelled that the Syd's shows are very good shows.  As such, their lines have grown.

 

Although, it doesn't sound like they're all that bad if you only have to wait 30 minutes or so.

I definitely learned of Syd's by "word of mouth" by reading threads on the NCL boards before our Prima cruise.

[ontheweb]

19 minutes ago, Liljo22 said:

Syd’s is significantly smaller on the Prima than other ships.  It’s rumored that they are going to move it on the Aqua to make it bigger.  I mentioned in my review that they should swap sides with the Improv and make the Metropolitan bar smaller.  

Could you be more specific as to how much smaller? Do you have the dimensions for Syd's for the Prima and for the other ships it is on? There are definitely less passengers on the Prima than the Epci and Breakaway ships.

[graphicguy]

Found this......Looks like Syd's is wider on Prima but not as deep.  But, it's a video, so I don't know that they capture the entire place.....good idea of the music they play...which is right in my wheelhouse!

 

 

[olemissreb]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Found this......Looks like Syd's is wider on Prima but not as deep.  But, it's a video, so I don't know that they capture the entire place.....good idea of the music they play...which is right in my wheelhouse!

 

 

OMG I'm so going to have to see a few shows here!  I'm not so sure I'll be able to keep my seat - I may be up dancing (just like I did back when these songs came out - yes I'm aging myself).

 

Can someone explain what "Prom NIght" is?

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, olemissreb said:

OMG I'm so going to have to see a few shows here!  I'm not so sure I'll be able to keep my seat - I may be up dancing (just like I did back when these songs came out - yes I'm aging myself).

 

Can someone explain what "Prom NIght" is?

They play music that might have played at a prom. The singers also tell funny stories about their experiences at a prom.

 

It is their last show.

[olemissreb]

5 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

They play music that might have played at a prom. The singers also tell funny stories about their experiences at a prom.

 

It is their last show.

Do they encourage people to dress up like they are attending their prom?  That would be funny!  Of course, I'm not sure I want to wear a dress similar to the one I wore in high school (shudder!)

[ontheweb]

1 minute ago, olemissreb said:

Do they encourage people to dress up like they are attending their prom?  That would be funny!  Of course, I'm not sure I want to wear a dress similar to the one I wore in high school (shudder!)

Actually, they dress up as if they were prom goers. I don't remember any audience members doing the same.

[olemissreb]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, they dress up as if they were prom goers. I don't remember any audience members doing the same.

Thank you!  Maybe my sister and I can start something on the Viva in March '25...might be fun!

[ontheweb]

15 minutes ago, olemissreb said:

Thank you!  Maybe my sister and I can start something on the Viva in March '25...might be fun!

Go for it!

 

They also choose a prom king and queen.

[Panhandle Couple]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:09 AM, EllieinNJ said:

Why can't NCL put the Rumors show in the main theater for at least one night?  I know the atmosphere wouldn't be the same as Syds but it would allow many of us who cannot stand in line to see it..  They did it with the Beatles shows on the Joy last year for those who could not get into the Cavern Club.

It has been discussed here several times.

Both shows are done under contracts with the property rights owners.  Different terms and agreements.

See the link for the confusing path of owners for the Beatles songs.

https://marketrealist.com/p/who-owns-the-beatles-catalog-now/

 

Nearly all of them are owned by Paul McCartney now.

Note the NCL contract allows them to copy the images and likeness of the Beatles into the show.

The Fleetwood Mac contract doesn't seem to allow that.

 

For Fleetwood Mac, the water is muddier.  At least 3 of the band members own their individual songs, so there are multiple contracts required.  Two have sold theirs off recently to large companies. 

The NCL contract(s) did not allow large stage performances, or else they would have had them by now.  This could change with the new owners and when the contract period is up for renewal (An unknown date to me), or the new owners could want more than NCL is willing to pay, and NCL looks for new acts.

 

[graphicguy]

I would think if licensing Rumors gets too discombobulated, NCL could probably adopt the same sort of show around a different group/album…Beach Boys-Pet Sounds….Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon would be big fun!  

 

There are a wealth of albums that could be adapted.

 

Plus, Rumors is only one of the shows the same performers have in Syd’s!

 

[Liljo22]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Could you be more specific as to how much smaller? Do you have the dimensions for Syd's for the Prima and for the other ships it is on? There are definitely less passengers on the Prima than the Epci and Breakaway ships.

I don't have dimensions but here are the capacities that Bird posted.

 

Prima - 70

Breakaway - 175

Getaway - 127

Escape - 126

 

 

Edited January 21 by Liljo22

[Panhandle Couple]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:21 PM, KeithJenner said:

It would be simple to enforce.

 

The restriction wouldn’t be based on the number of people who could feasibility overhear the show, but could be based on the official capacity of the venue. Someone could licence the show to be played at specific venues, or at a venue with a capacity no more than 200, for example.

 

Venues generally have a stated capacity, for fire regulations etc, and I would be surprised if all of the entertainment venues on the ships don’t have these. Regardless. It would be very easy for the owners of the copyright to state the venues based on whatever criteria they chose.

 

I have no idea whether this happens, but it would be extremely simple for some such restriction to be put in place.

I have been in 2 Syd's (Breakaway, Escape) and Cavern Club on Bliss.  While never counting, I can't imagine more than 350 people would hear shows there, including inside and outside.  Probably more like 200 for normal seating, SRO and personal comfort.