QV415C in June Problems

[majortom10]

13 minutes ago, Isitme said:

We are also on the QV cruise on 17th June. When we received the email from Cunard I called our TA and told them I was dissatisfied with the offer by Cunard. I regarded the itinerary change as a significant change and as a significant change we should be given other options which should include a full refund which, obviously Cunard and our TA would not be happy with. Also, I believe a 'significant change' has insurance ramifications.

 

Our TA said they would speak to Cunard and call me back and email me before the close of business. As business day as drawing to a close I called and was told it would be Monday before somebody got back to me. However, around an hour later I received an email from  our TA repeating what Cunard had said. I am not certain if this is the email setting out our 'options' (i.e. one) or simply repeating the email from Cunard. However, the email cynically stated that as the change is a minor change no action is necessary.

 

How changing the itinerary from a 7 day sea cruise to a cruise with 4 days in dock together with a loss of days in port is a 'Minor' change I have no idea. What is the definition of a minor change? Who decides a change is minor or significant? Who comes up with the idea that making a derisory and insulting offer of $100 OBC as though they are being generous will pacify and placate their customers? $100OBC is the equivalent of 2 average bottles of wine onboard or almost 2 meals in their fee paying restaurant. Is that really how little they appreciate their customers?

 

We are still awaiting an email from TA giving us options but whatever is offered it has spoilt the cruise (if we go on the cruise) and whatever we end up with we have lost from the position we had before the change. I am pretty disgusted with Cunard with their cynical offer and words.

Sorry but that is not a minor change and would not stand up in court so tell your TA it is a significant change and a full refund is an option under T&C's. If they still refuse tell your TA to inform Cunard you are taking legal advice. They don't want to give a full refund because they know it would be hard to sell a 7 my cruise when you are in Barcelona for 4 days.

[Isitme]

As I understand it (and I stand to be corrected as I am no expert) if the change is a minor change the passenger has no rights to a refund. If it is a significant change there is the right to a refund. I do not want a credit note. I feel underappreciated and have no trust in Cunard. 

 

I accept things happen. Ships need corrective works but treat your customers with respect do not try to fob them off with a 'this is a minor change and we will generously give you $100OBC' line for ruining your holiday. Most businesses are great when things are going right but I always judge a company as to how they react and how treat their customers when there is a problem. Cunard have failed badly there - simply so that they will not lose income on this cruise. Shame on them.

 

Ever if we get a 100% credit we have the trouble of cancelling flights and hotels etc and having to battle with insurers over expenses we have incurred.

 

 

 

 

[majortom10]

On 5/16/2024 at 4:10 PM, david63 said:

Unfortunately those are risks we all take with any cruise and more so with a new ship.

Don't think you could class QV as a new ship 😀

[Isitme]

2 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Sorry but that is not a minor change and would not stand up in court so tell your TA it is a significant change and a full refund is an option under T&C's. If they still refuse tell your TA to inform Cunard you are taking legal advice. They don't want to give a full refund because they know it would be hard to sell a 7 my cruise when you are in Barcelona for 4 days.

I have already told them I do not regard this as a minor change and it is clearly a significant change and that I am going to pursue it and will.  I am just waiting to see what options they offer. 

 

The TA stated that they have had a number of people who are in a similar position. 

 

 

[Pushpit]

In the European regulations (which still apply in the UK) "significant change" is not precisely defined, but there is wording which says that even if the supplier (Cunard) is forced by external factors to change an essential item in the contract then the consumer should be contacted to allow the consumer to withdraw from the contract. That includes when a "significant proportion" of the contracted services cannot be met.

 

So on a land based package tour, changing a package from resort A to resort B is always a significant change. But changing from hotel X to hotel Y may be regarded as not significant is hotel Y is considered a higher standard and has all the facilities of X and more. So that is how tour companies handle hotel problems - they either find a better hotel which no-one will complain about, or they decide to offer a refund anyway since the cost of hotel Y is too high.

 

In Scots law the wording is "material change" but it has the same meaning in this context.

 

The above is factual. As to my personal opinion, leaving out one location and cutting the sailing aspects by more than a quarter is a significant change. It gets overwhelming if the visit to Messina was a significant reason for you to book this particular sailing.

 

I actually think Cunard will refund, the TA here hasn't got the matter on to the right desk yet.

[Isitme]

3 minutes ago, Pushpit said:

In the European regulations (which still apply in the UK) "significant change" is not precisely defined, but there is wording which says that even if the supplier (Cunard) is forced by external factors to change an essential item in the contract then the consumer should be contacted to allow the consumer to withdraw from the contract. That includes when a "significant proportion" of the contracted services cannot be met.

 

So on a land based package tour, changing a package from resort A to resort B is always a significant change. But changing from hotel X to hotel Y may be regarded as not significant is hotel Y is considered a higher standard and has all the facilities of X and more. So that is how tour companies handle hotel problems - they either find a better hotel which no-one will complain about, or they decide to offer a refund anyway since the cost of hotel Y is too high.

 

In Scots law the wording is "material change" but it has the same meaning in this context.

 

The above is factual. As to my personal opinion, leaving out one location and cutting the sailing aspects by more than a quarter is a significant change. It gets overwhelming if the visit to Messina was a significant reason for you to book this particular sailing.

 

I actually think Cunard will refund, the TA here hasn't got the matter on to the right desk yet.

Thanks for your comments and input.

 

We will not simply accept what we are told by Cunard and/or TA and we will take it further. Cunard intimated the TA may have issues with any decision they come to as the TA is at risk of losing their commission.

 

I do, however, feel that some passengers will be fobbed off by what has been said.

[Pushpit]

Just now, Isitme said:

We will not simply accept what we are told by Cunard and/or TA and we will take it further. Cunard intimated the TA may have issues with any decision they come to as the TA is at risk of losing their commission.

Yes, that's always been the issue with travel agents versus tour operators, and it's a peril TAs face and probably hate. It wouldn't surprise me that this is the dialogue that you are not witnessing at the moment. But it goes with the job, and a good tour operator will reach an accommodation with their travel agents since ultimately TAs can start pushing business to other companies. A typical outcome in this scenario is for Carnival to tell the TA "give Isitme a full refund, sell that or another cabin to someone else for a hefty reduction / big OBC, and we will maintain your commission". 

[aaaaa]

 

              Original:     Revised:

 

Embark   Barcelona   Barcelona

               At Sea        Barcelona

               Alghero      Barcelona

               Ajaccio       Barcelona

               At Sea        Alghero

               Messina     Cagliari

 

Remainder of itinerary is unchanged.

Edited May 17 by aaaaa
edit

[NE John]

12 hours ago, buchanan101 said:

Many cruise itineraries really don't interest us - if we want to go somewhere we'd want to spend a few nights - one of the Holland America pinnacles arrived in Lisbon whilst we were there for a short break - it was there 6 hours. What is the point of that, especially for such a great city?

This confuses me about cruises too, a few hours in a great city. I’ve been on an overnight in Istanbul as part of a cruise and can’t imagine spending six or so hours there. That overnight was an important favor on going on that cruise. I wish more lines offer less stops and longer stays. 

[foodsvcmgr]

Sorry to hear of everyone’s inconvenience and frustrations getting suitable resolution, but very curious what issue is the cause of this?

Has QV been sailing at reduced speed?

Any issues apparent to current passengers?

[Isitme]

6 hours ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Sorry to hear of everyone’s inconvenience and frustrations getting suitable resolution, but very curious what issue is the cause of this?

Has QV been sailing at reduced speed?

Any issues apparent to current passengers?

We have not been told specifics just that it is 'essential maintenance'.

[Poole Boy]

11 hours ago, aaaaa said:

 

              Original:     Revised:

 

Embark   Barcelona   Barcelona

               At Sea        Barcelona

               Alghero      Barcelona

               Ajaccio       Barcelona

               At Sea        Alghero

               Messina     Cagliari

 

Remainder of itinerary is unchanged.

The fact the Cunard are now selling this cruise with no ports of call , shows that 4 days in Barcelona may not be enough. 

[Pushpit]

I am just putting the prices here, just to see what happens over the next few days. If cancellations start to be processed, these prices will dip. UK Point of Sale Direct, 2 passengers sharing. (For single passengers there is also Oceanview on sale at £1349).

 

[Isitme]

26 minutes ago, Poole Boy said:

The fact the Cunard are now selling this cruise with no ports of call , shows that 4 days in Barcelona may not be enough. 

Not sure what you mean. On the Cunard website it still appears to show the original itinerary but at the top of the page for that cruise it says due to a technical issue the itinerary is not shown correctly.

 

Other cruise booking websites are now showing a new itinerary with Alghero and Ajaccio but does not show stops at either Cagliari or Messina but then goes straight to Naples. Sets sail from Barcelona on day 1 - not a 4 day dock.

 

Day 1 - Barcelona

Day 2 - At sea

Day 3 - Alghero

Day 4 - Ajaccio

Day 5 - At sea

Day 6 - Cruising Straights of Messina

Day 7 - Naples

Day 8 - Rome

 

If this is true it could be what somebody suggested earlier - that the ship is running slow. 

 

I am not sure if this new itinerary is correct but it would be the third itinerary in 2 days and due to the number of passengers who wanted a full refund. Missing one port would give them a stronger argument to say it is a minor change.

[Isitme]

If this is the new itinerary it is clear to see Cunard have handled the whole itinerary change very badly and had a huge pushback from its passengers wanting a full refund.

[Pushpit]

Cunard has an outsourced agent for Iberia, Mexico and those European markets that Cunard don't have a marketing presence (e.g. Croatia), and is known as Cunard Cruceros. Their website has a reputation for the precision and details that are woefully missing from Cunard itself. This is what it says at the moment:

 

[buchanan101]

A 7 day “cruise” and half of it in Barcelona? I’d want my money back plus a huge chunk of FCC. Hardly worth going! 

[Pushpit]

It's pretty leisurely when she does get going. Each sector is 200 to 300 statute miles long, it's probably around half the total distance of the original. It's basically swapping Corsica and Sicily for a gentle plod around Sardinia.

[buchanan101]

1 minute ago, Pushpit said:

It's pretty leisurely when she does get going. Each sector is 200 to 300 statute miles long, it's probably around half the total distance of the original. It's basically swapping Corsica and Sicily for a gentle plod around Sardinia.

And of course the repairs could overrun…

[majortom10]

15 hours ago, Isitme said:

I have already told them I do not regard this as a minor change and it is clearly a significant change and that I am going to pursue it and will.  I am just waiting to see what options they offer. 

 

The TA stated that they have had a number of people who are in a similar position. 

 

 

I had a similar situation with P&O few years back they said it was minor changes and I said were significant changes so could cancel with full refund. They pushed and denied until I said we will let the legal system in what was Small Claims Court decide. Guess what they backed down and said I could cancel with full refund. Anyone can see that the changes on QV cruise is significant compared to what you booked. They are trying it on because if they have a lot of cancellations they will struggle to fill empty cabins when you are stuck in Barcelona for 4 days.

Edited May 18 by majortom10

[tigerfan75]

I have read (in the US) of passengers bringing or threatening legal actions being subsequently “blacklisted” from the cruise line.  The passengers were not allowed to book any future cruises.  Do not know if an urban legend or true…

[aaaaa]

Do the US terms and conditions use the "significant changes" test?

 

Related, two of the newly added nights in Barcelona were originally "sea days."  Does it matter, in terms of whether the changes are "significant," that some guests might prefer docked days to sea days?

Edited May 18 by aaaaa
edit

[Pushpit]

16 minutes ago, aaaaa said:

Related, two of the newly added nights in Barcelona were originally "sea days."  Does it matter, in terms of whether the changes are "significant," that some guests might prefer docked days to sea days?

The legislation isn't giving us direct guidance on this. Here's my take on it: "significant change" - to whom exactly does that apply? Cunard? the passenger? or possibly both? Well it can't be Cunard since they made the change, they can't mark their own homework on this. Plus as part of one of the UK and USA's largest companies arguably very little is significant since the sums of money at stake here aren't even rounding numbers in their annual accounts. So "significant" must mean "significant to the customer". Therefore to my mind if a customer says it is significant AND has some rational reasons to back this up, then significant it is.

 

The clearest way of putting this is to say "I would not have booked this sailing had I seen the revised timetable". If it got to the court or arbitration process then this could be tested as to plausibility and I wouldn't want to be Cunard's lawyer. At the other extreme would be someone who could identify a particular reason for being in (say) Messina - booking excursions, lunch, meeting friends, making internet searches. One could even use some Cruise Critic queries as evidence that Messina was an important part of the sailing. 

 

So in my view it is down to each passenger to calibrate this for themselves. Some passengers would indeed just party on, regardless, and for them the word "significant" would not apply.

[foodsvcmgr]

To be fair, Cunard are in a rather difficult spot schedule wise.

The non-repetitive nature of each weeks sailing puts them at risk of additional voyages being impacted if there are any delays completing the work.

Not really possible to scrub the entire week like a typical cruise beginning and ending in the same port.

Now of course none of this precludes them from doing the right thing with refunds.

[aaaaa]

On the Cunard Cruceros website (cited in post #41), the voyage is called "Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily."  But, with the itinerary change, the voyage will no longer stop at either Corsica or Sicily!