Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[craig01020]

My wife and I are not young (65 & 61). I've sailed on 5 different cruise lines, only once on HAL (Rotterdam). I appreciated the calm atmosphere. Was it perfect? No, but it was a beautiful ship and just the right size. My impression is that HAL is cruising for grownups. I just booked the Rotterdam again for 2026 to Iceland (it was less $$$ than an Alaska cruise).

 

I've become a big fan of HAL.

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, craig01020 said:

My wife and I are not young (65 & 61). I've sailed on 5 different cruise lines, only once on HAL (Rotterdam). I appreciated the calm atmosphere. Was it perfect? No, but it was a beautiful ship and just the right size. My impression is that HAL is cruising for grownups. I just booked the Rotterdam again for 2026 to Iceland (it was less $$$ than an Alaska cruise).

 

I've become a big fan of HAL.

Calm is good and that is why we started sailing HAL in our 40s.  

[Petronillus]

4 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

That then can mean the end of this cruise line . just like GM cast off   Pontiac & Oldsmobile  

Buick won out because at the time the Chinese market loved the line -- for reasons GM never figured out.

I'm sure each cruise line has its afficionados, but whether or not HAL is the best profit-generating of the CCL lines, it would surprise me if its sisters, with the exception of Cunard, can match it in terms of customer loyalty.

But the same could be said of Pontiac.

 

Another analogy that might prompt a cautionary tale: When Macy's gobbled up Marshall Fields (Chicago), Hudson's (Detroit), and Dayton's (Minneapolis) and retired each one's brand they frittered away a huge treasure chest of brand equity. Compared to their hometown favorites, the Macy's brand, with its association with NYC, just didn't cut it.

[Lido deck main]

2 hours ago, Petronillus said:

YMMV but . . .

 

Things I'm glad have stayed the same:

* The fully wrap-around promenade decks.

* The absence of muzak in the elevators and throughout

* Rolled-up cloth washrags in the lavatories

* The genial cheerfulness of the pax-facing crew

* 24-hour room service at no additional charge (other than cash tip/gratuity)

* The Crow's Nest

 

Some of the positive changes from my point of view:

* Strict limitations on smoking. I'm fine with confining it to the starboard side of the Sea View pool.

* Wi-fi that enables pax to check emails on board and even to have telephone conversations via voip.

* No longer need to pack my tuxedo set (the suit plus the cummerbund plus the infernal bow tie plus the formal shirt plus the studs plus the patent-leather shoes!).

* Anytime dining

* HIA and HIA+

* The laser and other techno enhancements to the World Stage

* No more trays in the Lido buffet. Plus very few occasions for self-service.

* Locating the Explorations Cafe in the Crow's Nest

* Ready availability of hand-washing stations and hand-sanitizer dispensers

* No more BBC Earth (with their infernal snakes terrorizing the poor little lizard hatchlings)

 

Changes I'm still fuming about:

* Requiescat in pace: Lincoln Center Stage

* RIP: Step One Dance Company

* RIP: the second piano/pianist in Billboard Onboard

* RIP: chaplain on the majority of cruises (happily, not likely to affect me because of the itineraries and durations we favor)

 

Changes I'm neutral on:

* RIP: the Yum Yum Man

 

When was the last time you cruised?  Step One Dancers there, yum yum person there, there is a three person group, piano, cello, violin. 

[craig01020]

Maybe they're not building new ships because they'll be absorbing ships from other Carnival brands after they take delivery of new gargantuan ships.

[FlaMariner]

2 hours ago, mwj said:

In the meantime, we have booked or sailed on other lines; Silversea, Windstar, Atlas and AMA Waterways.

 

These lines charge much more than Holland America Line so I would agree with you....I would cruise on those over HAL if I had the travel budget for those lines....but we do not....Our retirement travel budget fits nicely with HAL.....HAL allows us to see the world and we love the ships, food, crew, destinations, entertainment, Dutch traditions, calmness, classiness and overall experience.

 

If we did not like HAL, we would not book passage with them and I would not be posting on the HAL board about how much we enjoy cruising w/Holland America Line.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sdfgh]

3 hours ago, mwj said:

Frankly, for me, HAL has made many small decisions that are driving us away.

 

1)      Elimination of Lincoln Center

2)      Elimination of BBKing

3)      Poor World Stage entertainment

4)      Bumping twosomes out of a room that will hold more

5)      Failure to invest in new ships.

6)      Persistent poor-quality website and app

7)      Persistent Inconsistency between app and daily planner

😎 Poor quality customer service since outsourcing

9)      Persistent lack of response to emails addressed to guest services

10)   Continually raising drink prices with adjusting HIA price limit

11)   Removal of fresh squeezed juice from HIA

12)   Poor implantation of anytime dining reservations

13)   Park West takeover of public common areas

14)   Elimination of informational port talks

15)   Cutback on the number of crew aboard

16)   Invisibility of sommelier

17)   Removal of embarkation MDR lunch

 

These are just the reasons that I could think of in the past fifteen minutes. We continue to minimally sail HAL when we are doing so with friends.

In the meantime, we have booked or sailed on other lines; Silversea, Windstar, Atlas and AMA Waterways.

 

You must be a long time cruiser with HAL. The fresh squeezed orange juice brings back fond memories when I was sailing with my in laws. That is however a great point, some little things do really make a big difference. 
My wife and I will be trying Oceania cruises shortly, looking forward to a new experience.

[cruiser man 60]

MSC which is privately owned is launching a new ship just about every year, not only huge ships like world Europa , world America etc but smaller all luxury suite ships like Explora . So there’s obviously a market for even more new ships. MSC also have one of the worlds biggest cargo fleets and own ports etc so probably helps.

[Sdfgh]

45 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Calm is good and that is why we started sailing HAL in our 40s.  

We started sailing HAL around that time in our lives as well. Calm, peacefulness, and serenity, are wonderful, many of us lead busy, somewhat hectic lives and not fighting over lounge chairs is very much appreciated. I still sail HAL, however, it bothers me how every change is cost cutting and not cruise enhancing. Almost all the cutbacks really do not matter much, however, cruising is a lot of seemingly trivial events that at the end of the voyage leave us with a lasting impression. For example , don’t need chocolates every night, I never eat them. I did notice that they are put on our pillows only on gala nights. Turn down service is something I want twice a day, now on some ships you must request it. Many cruise lines offer the same general experience, it’s the little things that set them apart. Smooth sailing to all.

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 hours ago, cruiser man 60 said:

MSC which is privately owned is launching a new ship just about every year, not only huge ships like world Europa , world America etc but smaller all luxury suite ships like Explora . So there’s obviously a market for even more new ships. MSC also have one of the worlds biggest cargo fleets and own ports etc so probably helps.

 

MSC throws their weight around with ports, probably on the strength of their cargo business. They shoved Queen Mary 2 out of Brooklyn for some dates, forcing Cunard to reconfigure some itineraries. I thought Carnival had a hand in the building of the Brooklyn terminal. AFAIK, only Cunard and Princess have used it in the past. But MSC wanted some dates and they got them. 

[cruiser man 60]

6 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

MSC throws their weight around with ports, probably on the strength of their cargo business. They shoved Queen Mary 2 out of Brooklyn for some dates, forcing Cunard to reconfigure some itineraries. I thought Carnival had a hand in the building of the Brooklyn terminal. AFAIK, only Cunard and Princess have used it in the past. But MSC wanted some dates and they got them. 

Yes MSC group are huge and get priority in lots of ports around Europe, also expanding in far east where they have a large ship permanently based.

[RubyCam]

We were recently on a cruise designated a Legendary Voyage which seemed to have many of the things people seemed to be missing including,but not limited to, the Yum Yum man.

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, RubyCam said:

We were recently on a cruise designated a Legendary Voyage which seemed to have many of the things people seemed to be missing including,but not limited to, the Yum Yum man.

I am inclined to only sail the Legendary Voyages and am hoping for the same quality in the new line of Celestial Voyages they recently introduced.

[UPNYGuy]

I posted this on another thread about this topic, and it does have some truth to it. 
 

Not for nothing, but Holland America has been seen as an operator of midsize ships. And, even the definition of midsize has been changing if you consider the size of some of the largest ships that are operating right now. Some of these are over 230,000 GRT, so what IS the definition of midsized? Considering the size of some of these ships, the MSC Divina, Carnival Magic, and RC Voyager Class could be considered “midsize”. 
 

And, Royal Caribbean does some pretty lengthy cruises on their ‘midsized’ ships. 

When the S class ships came out, the largest ships were right around 80,000 tons, and the Statendam was around 55. When the vista class came out, the largest ships were around 150,000 tons, and those were around 85. 
 

Never say Holland America won’t do a larger ship. If they don’t, they won’t survive. The public has already been conditioned to not pay the prices they need to fill the smaller ships on a profitable scale. If HAL were Viking, Oceania, or Azamara and were able to command premium prices, yes…

[Sdfgh]

3 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

I posted this on another thread about this topic, and it does have some truth to it. 
 

 

Not for nothing, but Holland America has been seen as an operator of midsize ships. And, even the definition of midsize has been changing if you consider the size of some of the largest ships that are operating right now. Some of these are over 230,000 GRT, so what IS the definition of midsized? Considering the size of some of these ships, the MSC Divina, Carnival Magic, and RC Voyager Class could be considered “midsize”. 
 

And, Royal Caribbean does some pretty lengthy cruises on their ‘midsized’ ships. 

When the S class ships came out, the largest ships were right around 80,000 tons, and the Statendam was around 55. When the vista class came out, the largest ships were around 150,000 tons, and those were around 85. 
 

Never say Holland America won’t do a larger ship. If they don’t, they won’t survive. The public has already been conditioned to not pay the prices they need to fill the smaller ships on a profitable scale. If HAL were Viking, Oceania, or Azamara and were able to command premium prices, yes…

 

3 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

I posted this on another thread about this topic, and it does have some truth to it. 
 

 

Not for nothing, but Holland America has been seen as an operator of midsize ships. And, even the definition of midsize has been changing if you consider the size of some of the largest ships that are operating right now. Some of these are over 230,000 GRT, so what IS the definition of midsized? Considering the size of some of these ships, the MSC Divina, Carnival Magic, and RC Voyager Class could be considered “midsize”. 
 

And, Royal Caribbean does some pretty lengthy cruises on their ‘midsized’ ships. 

When the S class ships came out, the largest ships were right around 80,000 tons, and the Statendam was around 55. When the vista class came out, the largest ships were around 150,000 tons, and those were around 85. 
 

Never say Holland America won’t do a larger ship. If they don’t, they won’t survive. The public has already been conditioned to not pay the prices they need to fill the smaller ships on a profitable scale. If HAL were Viking, Oceania, or Azamara and were able to command premium prices, yes…

Mid size is a relative term, however, the problem is that HAL has no new ships planned for the foreseeable future. Regardless of the size of the ship almost everyone enjoys new. Old ships are especially not enticing for younger cruisers, which without exception, every cruise line needs. The younger cruisers then become the more seasoned cruisers and hopefully for the cruise line develop brand loyalty. 
I sincerely hope CCL  makes the correct decisions to preserve the niche that HAL has filled for so many years. It is not a big deal in the whole scheme of things, however, I would personally miss the HAL experience.

[UPNYGuy]

4 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

 

Mid size is a relative term, however, the problem is that HAL has no new ships planned for the foreseeable future. Regardless of the size of the ship almost everyone enjoys new. Old ships are especially not enticing for younger cruisers, which without exception, every cruise line needs. The younger cruisers then become the more seasoned cruisers and hopefully for the cruise line develop brand loyalty. 
I sincerely hope CCL  makes the correct decisions to preserve the niche that HAL has filled for so many years. It is not a big deal in the whole scheme of things, however, I would personally miss the HAL experience.

Correct on all accounts. 

[howiefrommd]

24 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

 The public has already been conditioned to not pay the prices they need to fill the smaller ships on a profitable scale. 

I certainly agree with most of the original authors comments.  The one thing that I question is their premise that people are not paying for the "smaller ships."  We are very itinerary driven and end up taking many different cruise lines and ships.  In my neophyte (as it comes to the cruise industry financials) abilities, I tend to see the smaller ships with significant occupancy. Additionally, when you look at the smaller ship luxury market their appears to be not only many new (build) ships, but also new cruise lines. 

[AKJonesy]

18 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Have you sailed the N. Statendam?  It overcame many of the flaws that exist on the Koningsdam.

We will be bringing her from Rome to Ft. Lauderdale in November.  We've never sailed her and am looking forward to it.  

[Sdfgh]

1 minute ago, howiefrommd said:

I certainly agree with most of the original authors comments.  The one thing that I question is their premise that people are not paying for the "smaller ships."  We are very itinerary driven and end up taking many different cruise lines and ships.  In my neophyte (as it comes to the cruise industry financials) abilities, I tend to see the smaller ships with significant occupancy. Additionally, when you look at the smaller ship luxury market their appears to be not only many new (build) ships, but also new cruise lines. 

All the ships are going out at 100% capacity. If HAL still can’t make it profitable then there has to be some changes with upper management.

[howiefrommd]

Just now, Sdfgh said:

All the ships are going out at 100% capacity. If HAL still can’t make it profitable then there has to be some changes with upper management.

I do not doubt HA occupancy nor do I have any idea of their profit or loss.  I can say that recently we have taken 2 HA cruises (1, 93 Day Grand Australia) (2, 28 Arctic Circle Alaska) and both we were able to get a Neptune Suite at insane per diems in which HIA was included. On the Alaska cruise, over 700 people had the HIA package so needless to say the specialty restaurants were packed. In an brief conversation with the Pinnacle GM, he indicated that he can count on one hand each night the guests that are paying. Additionally there was a massive amount of 5 star Mariners. 

 

Another thing to consider is the last minute craziness thing HA has started.  How can you not have full occupancy.  Once again, who knows if they make or loose money.

 

I do think the fact that there are no new orders speaks for itself.  There are people who say the mantra of paying down COVID debt.  Cruise lines have always had massive debt.   Many cruise lines with massive debt are ordering ships for their profitable brands. 

 

 

[caameche1]

Absolutely not! On a HAL cruise right now.  It is the best cruise food we have ever had (with apx. 12 cruises under our belt and the vast majority of them with celebrity)! The entertainment is wonderful. Older (40+) party vibe. 

Celebrity went about getting younger cruises the wrong way and that is why we left them. 

[richwmn]

20 hours ago, Petronillus said:

Another analogy that might prompt a cautionary tale: When Macy's gobbled up Marshall Fields (Chicago), Hudson's (Detroit), and Dayton's (Minneapolis) and retired each one's brand they frittered away a huge treasure chest of brand equity. Compared to their hometown favorites, the Macy's brand, with its association with NYC, just didn't cut it.

Add that Macy's (Federated) bought up both local favorites in Atlanta -- Davisons and Richs, closed a few locations and rebranded what was left to Macy's and lost a lot of good will.

 

[Mary229]

19 minutes ago, richwmn said:

Add that Macy's (Federated) bought up both local favorites in Atlanta -- Davisons and Richs, closed a few locations and rebranded what was left to Macy's and lost a lot of good will.

 

The department store example is indeed a good one.  Many premium brands succumbed to mass merchandising as that is what the public wanted.  A publicly traded company can only stay profitable so long going against the tide.  The small niche markets are better served by private companies.  
 

That HAL still has some semblance as a niche company is quite remarkable and I will continue to sail their niche products.  To do this balancing act they simply must run mass market run of the mill cruises with cut throat methods.  
They are almost two distinct companies - the mass market standard run bargain brand and the niche long journey niche player. 

[Hobby3333]

I have been on 60+ cruises.   Mainly with Carnival because of the kids .  First cruise was 1985 on Costa but have been on NCL, Royal, Celebrity and just got off the Sun Princess.  We have only been on three Holland cruises and if Holland tries to go the way of Carnival, then I would be searching for another line.  Nothing against Carnival or the other aforementioned lines,,I just prefer Holland now.

Edited September 3 by Hobby3333
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[Aardvaark]

We recently made 4-star.  We tried the Neptune Suites & Lounge.  Nice.

But overall, the things that we loved in the past are gone.  Wine stewards vice waiters-by-the-glass. Classical music. Sip-n-savor.  Etc., etc.

The Crow's Nest was a sociaable drinking place, now done in by latte drinkers who sulk.

We'll try one more, doing a TA back home.

If it's as we saw this spring we're back to Azamara.