Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[3rdGenCunarder]

Just now, bbodb1 said:

 

We will definitely look for these on our upcoming HAL cruise - thanks @3rdGenCunarder!  

 

They're mostly gone, alas. But long-time HAL cruisers have fond memories of them. 

[C 2 C]

3 hours ago, coolbluegreenseas said:

So, CCL is not going to invest in the HAL line. What does this mean? Well, HAL will probably remain  a viable entity for the next several years and the current fleet will be refurbished. Also, it will not be terribly surprising if HAL is to inherit smaller ships from the sister lines as the new ships become available. Still, this does sound alot like a slow winding down or possible merge with Princess. Cunard is unique and will probably remain a separate organization until humans stop sailing.

Of course, what the heck do I know?😝

 

I just read the posts on HAL membership numbers and loyalty levels being replaced by Princess data.  To me that means integration will come about sooner than later.  But as Sgt  Schultz would say: " I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing"

[Sdfgh]

45 minutes ago, bbodb1 said:

 

@coolbluegreenseas it looks like you are a few steps further along in the process than we are as one of our goals in cruising was to that cruise line which most appealed to us.  We have previously cruised Carnival and HAL is next up for us but RCL and Celebrity are also likely in the future cruise plans for us if desirable itineraries can be found and the price is attractive.  (In fact, we would consider ANY cruise line in the future if the itinerary and price meets the previous goals).  

 

Would it be fair to say you found RCL and Celebrity more current (more attractive) than HAL?  In other words, if the OP was correct in stating HAL is falling behind, are both RCL and Celebrity pulling ahead?     

RCL and Celebrity are owned by RCCL. Every cruise line is cutting back to varying degrees. The problem with HAL is that their parent company CCL is not investing any future money into HAL, however, they are investing future money into the other lines they own. Some people have written that as other CCL cruise lines get their new ships they will give HAL  their smaller older  ships. Who wants older hand me down ships? That will never happen. HAL may be taken over by Princess or perhaps allowed to just sail away forever.

[sambamama]

The fruit soups are gone, although with a friendly maitre'd, you might get them. I may miss some, but I remember apple, strawberry, blueberry,  mixed berry, cranberry, peach, and maybe melon. They were a cold app choice, and yes, they were sweet. That's why I loved them, especially the cranberry. Princess still makes these. I'm surprised HAL doesn't since their soups are always a,strong point.  Dessert at the beginning of dinner!

 

I was a picky eater when  I started sailing on HAL. But I would order things I had not tried before, and if I didn't like it, it was no big loss. I learned to like escargot, steak tartar, anchovies, and all kinds of fish. I fell in love with nasi goreng- sp?.too. But that's gone as well. There were free steaks in the dining room on my Asia cruise. And I will say that the Pinnacle quality is,still there and they will still make desserts,off the menu with a,day' s notice. I love Grand Marnier sauce with a vanilla,souffle and saboyan sauce with berries and I've been able to get that. And ordering a Tomahawk steak and sharing it with 2- 3 other people is a good way to get a great steak!!

[TRLD]

59 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

RCL and Celebrity are owned by RCCL. Every cruise line is cutting back to varying degrees. The problem with HAL is that their parent company CCL is not investing any future money into HAL, however, they are investing future money into the other lines they own. Some people have written that as other CCL cruise lines get their new ships they will give HAL  their smaller older  ships. Who wants older hand me down ships? That will never happen. HAL may be taken over by Princess or perhaps allowed to just sail away forever.

Lets see no new orders for HAL since covid. However no new orders for Princess, P&O UK, Aida, Costa, and Cunard since covid either. 

 

P&O Australia is having its ships moved to Carnival and is being shutdown

 

All ships that are delivered in 23, 24 25 were all ordered pre covid.

 

So exactly how is HAL being treated any differently than any of the other CCL owned lines.

 

The only new ships ordered since Covid are 5 ships ordered for Carnival. Those orders were placed this year. They include 2  Excel class ships in 27 and 28, and 3 of a larger new class in 29, 31, 33.

 

HAL, Princess, and Costa are all below the desired return on capital invested target of 12%.

 

Which might be why both Princess and HAL are taking steps to get more control over their cabin inventory.

Edited September 9 by TRLD

[Dutchman48]

2 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

 . I was not aware that HAL was charging for steak in the MDR   .Other lines that is not so unless the steak was  ordered from a special restaurant menu 

HAL does not charge for their normal steak in the MDR. They do offer different steaks and lobsters for a surcharge (appear in a grayed-out section of the menu). Have enjoyed steak multiple times on my recent cruises with no surcharge.

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH Viking has chosen not to go the LNG route. In fact, Hagen, the founder and chairman of Viking, is strongly opposed to it. He said LNG is another word for methane, which he said is 80 times worse than CO2 in terms of global warming.

 

Viking On Course to Hydrogen Fuel Cells - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

yep. I suspect the main reason some of the lines are going LNG, is because at many of their home ports the cost is less than the diesel they are currently buying.

 

As far as pollution it is better on particulates and some pollution components, but may even be worse as far a climate change.

[Sdfgh]

42 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Lets see no new orders for HAL since covid. However no new orders for Princess, P&O UK, Aida, Costa, and Cunard since covid either. 

 

P&O Australia is having its ships moved to Carnival and is being shutdown

 

All ships that are delivered in 23, 24 25 were all ordered pre covid.

 

So exactly how is HAL being treated any differently than any of the other CCL owned lines.

 

The only new ships ordered since Covid are 5 ships ordered for Carnival. Those orders were placed this year. They include 2  Excel class ships in 27 and 28, and 3 of a larger new class in 29, 31, 33.

 

HAL, Princess, and Costa are all below the desired return on capital invested target of 12%.

 

Which might be why both Princess and HAL are taking steps to get more control over their cabin inventory.

You are correct that Carnival is ordering new vessels. The other cruise lines such as Pand O had a new ship the Arvia launch in 2022, Aida launched the Cosma in 2022, and Costa launched the Toscana also in 2022. These are still quite new. Princess will launch the Star Princess in 2025.

[TRLD]

2 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

You are correct that Carnival is ordering new vessels. The other cruise lines such as Pand O had a new ship the Arvia launch in 2022, Aida launched the Cosma in 2022, and Costa launched the Toscana also in 2022. These are still quite new. Princess will launch the Star Princess in 2025.

Let me repeat those ships were all ordered pre covid.

 

Just as HAL Rotterdam was order pre covid and delivered in 2022. Note that you did not mention the Rotterdam launch in 2022 when you mentioned the other lines 2022 launches.

 

HAL has not had any new ship orders since Covid but neither have any of those other lines. Just the tail end of ships order pre covid.

 

So basically HAL is being treated like the other CCL,  except for Carnival itself.

 

[Sdfgh]

50 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Let me repeat those ships were all ordered pre covid.

 

Just as HAL Rotterdam was order pre covid and delivered in 2022. Note that you did not mention the Rotterdam launch in 2022 when you mentioned the other lines 2022 launches.

 

HAL has not had any new ship orders since Covid but neither have any of those other lines. Just the tail end of ships order pre covid.

 

So basically HAL is being treated like the other CCL,  except for Carnival itself.

 

Rotterdam 2022 or 2021 ?

[canadarocks]

October 2021

[TRLD]

4 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

Rotterdam 2022 or 2021 ?

order and started construction in 2019, christened 30 May 22.

 

She was finished in 2021 and turned over to the line in July 2021.  Technically her first cruise was in October 2021.  However even as of January 22 only 67% of CCL owned lines were back in service, have no way to tell what those first cruises consisted of.  So exactly when it was fully in service is a bit convoluted.

 

 

[luv2travel06]

3 hours ago, sambamama said:

The fruit soups are gone, although with a friendly maitre'd, you might get them. I may miss some, but I remember apple, strawberry, blueberry,  mixed berry, cranberry, peach, and maybe melon. They were a cold app choice, and yes, they were sweet. That's why I loved them, especially the cranberry. Princess still makes these. I'm surprised HAL doesn't since their soups are always a,strong point.  Dessert at the beginning of dinner!

 

 

The fruit soups were the BEST!!!!!

 

We have also missed the different fruit crisp for dessert each dinner.

[TRLD]

this shows all of the CCL owned line ship orders in place at the end of 2019 prior to Covid.

 

Scheduled Delivery Date		Passenger Capacity Lower Berth
Carnival Cruise Line
Mardi Gras	October 2020		5,280
Newbuild	October 2022		5,280
Princess Cruises
Enchanted Princess	June 2020		3,660
Discovery Princess	October 2021		3,660
Newbuild	November 2023		4,280
Newbuild	May 2025		4,280
Holland America Line
Ryndam	May 2021		2,650
Seabourn
Seabourn Venture	June 2021		260
Newbuild	May 2022		260
Costa
Costa Smeralda	December 2019		5,220
Costa Firenze	September 2020		4,240
Costa Toscana	May 2021		5,330
AIDA
AIDAcosma	May 2021		5,440
Newbuild	May 2023		5,440
P&O Cruises (UK)
Iona	May 2020		5,200
Newbuild	May 2022		5,280
Cunard
Newbuild	April 2022		3,000

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

6 hours ago, TRLD said:

Which might be why both Princess and HAL are taking steps to get more control over their cabin inventory.

 

What do you mean about control?

[LetItSnow]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

this shows all of the CCL owned line ship orders in place at the end of 2019 prior to Covid.

 

Holland America Line
Ryndam	May 2021		2,650

 

I'm confused.  Are the dates in the table order date or delivery date?  2,650 passengers is a Pinnacle class ship but we don't have a Ryndam in the fleet.  Is that the one that became Rotterdam maybe?

 

[TRLD]

13 minutes ago, LetItSnow said:

I'm confused.  Are the dates in the table order date or delivery date?  2,650 passengers is a Pinnacle class ship but we don't have a Ryndam in the fleet.  Is that the one that became Rotterdam maybe?

 

The dates were the expected delivery date. The ship that became the Rotterdam was originally ordered as Ryndam then had the name changed when the previous Rotterdam was sold during the Covid shutdown.

[TRLD]

50 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

What do you mean about control?

Ability to maximize revenue by insuring that cabins are used to maximize occupancy and revenue.  Basically if a passenger can book any open cabin they have control, if the cruise line assigns all.cabins then they have total control. HAL and Princess are somewhere in between but moving in the direction where the cruise line has more control.

[UPNYGuy]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:10 AM, UPNYGuy said:

This is exactly what my point was. My wife and I will book on a large, 45,000 passenger vessel, but we typically do it in the ship with ship area (yacht club, havana…) and know what we are getting. 

Meant to say 4,000 to 5,000 😝

[UPNYGuy]

19 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

LNG ships do have problems inherent in their operations.  There are very few ports that can refill such ships.  In addition, the energy in LND is less than that of diesel, hence one needs more fuel to go the same distance, which will limit the cruising range.  LNG is more difficult to store on a ship as compared to diesel.

Taking that into account one will probably see ever bigger ships being powered by LNG, while mid sized ships will either be conventional diesel powered or use jet turbines for their power plants. 

Royal Caribbean Radiance class have been turbine powered for years. The claim is they are expensive to operate. HAL vista class also had a turbine in them. Not sure if it is still being used, but the Radiance class is GTS, which means gas turbine ship. 

Edited September 10 by UPNYGuy

[EtaC]

Just finished my first post-COVID HAL cruise on Oosterdam. To me the things that originally drew me to the line have not changed. Excellent service (especially in the rooms), Good to excellent food (Pinnacle was fabulous. Had the beef loin, medium rare, perfectly done). Great port calls in somewhat unusual places (Kotor, overnight in Valetta, but thankfully not in the Big Two). Great live music (Rolling Stone was packed each night until midnight. We got a lot of good swing dancing in there.). In addition, there was a ballroom dance hour most nights at 6. Recorded music but still fun). Orange party by the Lido pool was very high energy and well attended. No incredible rush to get a pool chair. Full promenade with deck chairs, and overall, a ship that felt like a ship, not like a cross between a Vegas casino and Disneyland.

 

 Some differences. There were more families on board. The kids were, on the whole, well behaved. A little bit of hot tub hogging in the Lido pool, but they left the Ocean View pool aft alone. The average age was probably in mid to late 50's to early 60's. Honestly, I saw more walkers, wheelchairs, and scooters on my last NCL cruise in the Caribbean. More international group (maybe not unusual for a Med cruise). Lots of Australians, Brits, Canadians, and a large Chinese contingent the first week (not sure if mainland or Taiwan).

 

The shows were OK if low key. The Step dance group was fun to watch, and the classical flute player and the tenor had a good show. OK, so it wasn't Cirque. I don't care. I don't cruise for the shows. 

 

Day activities were good. They had lots of crafting stuff that seemed well attended although that's also not my thing. I saw a lot of card and game groups scheduled. The bars always had something going on. Most nights had a sail-away party. Ocean Bar had several Mixology classes that got the attendees involved behind the bar learning how to make the cocktails. Wine tastings and pub crawls were also offered. I know there are those who decry changes that could bring in a younger demographic at the expense of traditional shows, but I'm not one of them.

 

I plan to write a longer review of the trip (as if this weren't long enough already). 

[HappyInVan]

21 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH Viking has chosen not to go the LNG route. In fact, Hagen, the founder and chairman of Viking, is strongly opposed to it. He said LNG is another word for methane, which he said is 80 times worse than CO2 in terms of global warming.

 

Viking On Course to Hydrogen Fuel Cells - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

 

IMO, the important insight is here...

 

“Viking has 10 ocean-going cruise ships today, and the first ship, which was delivered in 2015, was 40 percent more fuel efficient compared to ships of similar sizes built around 2000...”

 

HAL has 8 (out of 11) ships built in 2010 or earlier. The newest mega LNG ships must be of a different level of efficiency compared to the Volendam. That's why it makes no sense for HAL to take castoffs from the other brands. The cost of a major refit can't be justified by the short remaining working life as a first tier ship.

 

CCL has already closed P&O Australia who used to receive the castoffs from HAL. We have to be realistic.

[KAKcruiser]

On 9/9/2024 at 12:52 PM, bbodb1 said:

 

We will definitely look for these on our upcoming HAL cruise - thanks @3rdGenCunarder!  

I don't think they are available anymore except maybe on longer cruises.

[C 2 C]

On 9/10/2024 at 5:35 AM, UPNYGuy said:

Royal Caribbean Radiance class have been turbine powered for years. The claim is they are expensive to operate. HAL vista class also had a turbine in them. Not sure if it is still being used, but the Radiance class is GTS, which means gas turbine ship. 

Celebrity's Millennium Class were originally Gas Turbine but diesels were installed because the fuel was just too expensive.  The same "updates"/downgrade may have been installed on Radiance Class. Royal Caribbean Radiance class (beyondships4.com)

[UPNYGuy]

5 minutes ago, C 2 C said:

Celebrity's Millennium Class were originally Gas Turbine but diesels were installed because the fuel was just too expensive.  The same "updates"/downgrade may have been installed on Radiance Class. Royal Caribbean Radiance class (beyondships4.com)

My understanding is that the radiance class is still turbine, but I might be incorrect. I know there were statements made about the turbine ships being more expensive to run.