Defending those with disabilities!

[Oceanwench]

Just like clockwork ... the AB people who want "more bang for the buck" show up on the cruise line boards, asking about booking an HC cabin.

 

And I -- along with many of you -- get embroiled in arguing with them about it.

 

Someone started at least 3 threads on the HAL board, asking about the HC cabins on the Zuiderdam.

This person listed some specific cabin numbers -- HC rooms.

I figured it was either a troll or someone who just wanted "more for less."

 

Naturally I got flamed ... not by the OP, but by a newbie who just joined and only had a couple of posts. Troll #2?

 

If anyone is looking to defend the rights of the disabled, there's an opportunity on the HAL board, under "More Zuiderdam room questions."

[travelteam]

Thanks for the heads up. Some folks just don't get it. We wish we could book a last minute cruise at times, but of course never can because we need the HC cabin. I hope people would respect the courage of our disabled fellow cruisers - and give them a break. Your comments on the HAL board were right on. Thanks for your advocacy........and keep on cruising.

[RedHeadTexan]

I read the post yesterday and was taken aback by what Troll #2 wrote. I don't' blame you for being upset. Thanks for fighting the fight!:D

 

As an AB, I would never consider booking an HC. I have 900 cabins to choose from and am quite happy with my choice - Zuiderdam 6001.

[Mim Lloyd]

I'm able-bodied but with a sister who has mobility problems. I'm just grateful to have full working use of both arms and legs, and therefore able to be happily bedded down in any cabin. I wish other people would also count their blessings a bit more.

 

On our cruise last year on a British run ship, my sister had to prove that she was registered disabled by sending a photocopy of either her disability parking pass or proof of disability allowance to the cruise line. Otherwise she couldn't have had a disabled cabin. Why don't other cruise companies do the same?

[WatchHill]

Just read a post on the NCL Board - handicapped rooms Pride of America -in which the writer said they booked through a TA [name of agency is mentioned], an HC room....one year in advance of their cruise. No ethics evidenced by the poster or their TA.

My Mom has limited vision and mobility, so I am well aware of her need for reasonable accommodations. At one time we were asked by a few cruise lines for a doctor's letter, but not recently.

 

Darcy

[Oceanwench]

Thanks to everyone who posted, here and on the HAL thread. And to all those who have stopped to read these posts!

 

RedHeadTexan, I thought the OP on those threads was a troll. Perhaps summer boredom has set it? And certainly the second poster [with the bright red letters] was also a troll!

 

Wish they'd pick another topic ... shorts in the dining room or chaise hogs.

 

It's tough being an advocate, isn't it? :)

Especially when you're passionate about something, and you get the "chill out" response. Please!!!

 

WatchHill, I'm on my way to the NCL board now!

[Oceanwench]

Just read a post on the NCL Board - handicapped rooms Pride of America -in which the writer said they booked through a TA [name of agency is mentioned], an HC room....one year in advance of their cruise. No ethics evidenced by the poster or their TA.

My Mom has limited vision and mobility, so I am well aware of her need for reasonable accommodations. At one time we were asked by a few cruise lines for a doctor's letter, but not recently.

 

Darcy

 

 

I just posted in response to that. Amazing -- is that poster so dense?? Or selfish?

I did the research -- Pride of America has a total of 1,029 cabins. Of those, there are 21 accessible cabins.

What is wrong with people, that they can justify taking one of those too-few cabins for themselves when they are AB?

[WatchHill]

These are the same people who think nothing of parking in a reserved HC spot. If I parked in an HC space, I would be ticketed, fined and reported to the RMV and my auto insurance would be surcharged. Too bad the cruise lines couldn't do the same.

I would never use an agent or agency that violates the rights of people with disabilities.

As an aside, we are taking my 85 year old Mom, wheelchair and all, on the Norwegian Crown in a few weeks. We did not book an HC stateroom, rather, we opted for the owner's suite. The bathroom will be a challenge, but Mom felt that she could manage with assistance and not take an HC cabin from someone who truly needs it.

 

Darcy

[kitty9]

Ocean, when I went over to that topic and posted, I also redlined the offensive posts and asked that they be removed---and I see now they have been. You know, I just don't get it, and probably never will. The OP of that thread has been only asking about HC cabins, and nothing else. There are times when I think it would be good for the entire world if everyone were disabled for at least one day----either in a wheelchair, deaf, blind or any other disability. I don't think we would see so much selfishness in the world if this would happen. When the AB's have the run of more than 90% of any cruise ship, and still want to book HC cabins, I just have to shake my head.

[Oceanwench]

Ocean, when I went over to that topic and posted, I also redlined the offensive posts and asked that they be removed---and I see now they have been. You know, I just don't get it, and probably never will. The OP of that thread has been only asking about HC cabins, and nothing else. There are times when I think it would be good for the entire world if everyone were disabled for at least one day----either in a wheelchair, deaf, blind or any other disability. I don't think we would see so much selfishness in the world if this would happen. When the AB's have the run of more than 90% of any cruise ship, and still want to book HC cabins, I just have to shake my head.

 

Wow, great! Thanks!

 

No, I don't get it either. The OP started 3 threads, all dealing with HC cabins. Right up front she said she was AB.

When she began asking about 3 specific cabins, and all 3 were HC, then I knew what she was up to ... trying to get info from board members and assessing her chances at scoring an HC cabin for herself!

 

You are right, if everyone had to experience a day with disabilities, their mindset would change.

We have a friend who had a very bad fall and broke her leg. She spent weeks in a wheelchair. She told DH how she now understood what he was up against every day of his life!

[slukas]

Oh, how I long for the days when we didn't NEED a handicapped accessible room (for my DH).

 

I was doing some research for a friend about NCL Alaska cruises and don't you know that there is a thread about deliberately booking a HC room because it's bigger. I don't post on those - what's the point? They just don't get it...

 

Don't mean to sound bitter. I'm so grateful for this site - the amount of information available here is immense!

CruiseCritic is great!

 

slukas

 

EDIT: Oops - I just read this thread and I see that many of you have already seen that post on NCL board. Sorry for the duplicate idea.

[ehough]

I just posted in response to that. Amazing -- is that poster so dense?? Or selfish?

I did the research -- Pride of America has a total of 1,029 cabins. Of those, there are 21 accessible cabins.

What is wrong with people, that they can justify taking one of those too-few cabins for themselves when they are AB?

 

I have to say I don't appreciate the insults. Am I dense? No. Selfish? No. I came over to this board specifically to learn about disabled cruising now that my eyes have been opened, and here I am, being called selfish.

 

Not everyone knows the exact number of accessible cabins on all cruise lines, I hate to tell you. Which is no defense for taking a HC cabin if you don't need it. I agree with you there. But those of us who are AB do not realize offhand the hardships faced by HC cruisers, especially down to the numbers. That doesn't make us dense nor does it make us selfish. Now that I have been informed, albeit rudely, that there are so few HC cabins, I have NO intention of taking one from someone who needs it.

 

It's hard to realize the hardships of those with disabilities when able bodied people are handed an HC cabin a year in advance. You figure there's an ample amount of HC cabins if two able bodied people are handed one like it's no big deal. Obviously this is absolutely not the case but I suspect your anger should be equally directed at the TAs and cruise lines who are handing out HC cabins to unsuspecting able bodied passengers. The problem here is a lack of education- both for able bodied cruisers AND the TAs who are giving out HC cabins to people who don't need them. Insulting ABs who didn't know any better- and who are doing their best to make it right now that they know- is not helping the matter.

 

I can understand using my posting as an example of how unethical TAs are giving away such valuable rooms to people who don't require them, but please don't continue to insult me. I am doing my best to right the wrong that was inflicted by my TA and I would appreciate not being called selfish or dense in doing so.

[kitty9]

ehough, step back and take a deep breath. If you read this entire thread, it isn't in response to you, but to a person who's been posting on the HAL boards about wanting to book HC cabins while not being disabled. This person has put in numerous threads asking about HC cabins because she wanted a larger balcony and "something special" for her cruise. Your issue is completely different as it does not appear that you specifically asked, as an able bodied person, for an HC cabin. But the poster we've been referring to from the HAL board just wants to book an HC cabin because it's bigger and has a larger balcony. When an unethical TA gives away an HC cabin months before a sailing date, it's the TA that's the problem and not the passenger. We, as part of the disabled community, become upset whenever people start asking about booking HC cabins because they want the larger cabin which would be "so cool to have".

[ehough]

kitty9, I understand that most of this deals with the other poster, who is intentionally booking HC rooms even though they have no need for them.

 

But, post #7 specifically called me dense and selfish (not to mention the original post saying that I have no ethics), and surely most people would take offense to such insults.

 

I certainly understand the outrage at others mentioned in this thread who consciously take HC rooms from those who require them, but I don't feel that such outrage and insults were fairly directed at me, and I wanted to attempt to explain the situation that I faced as well as the steps I've taken to correct it.

 

I would agree that my situation is not the same as the other poster who is taking HC rooms on purpose, which is why I felt obligated to respond to the insults.

[Oceanwench]

Sorry, but pleading ignorance is not an appropriate defense.

Do you park in HC spaces at the mall or grocery store? Why not? Because of the fine? Or because you know those spots are for people who have disabilities?

 

When you see HC designation on a ship's deck plans, you don't stop to think ... gee, this room is for a person with disabilities?

 

I have to think you looked at deck plans when choosing your cabin. Did you see those little wheelchair symbols on all the rooms? Or just a few?

 

You claim you are going to rectify this situation, and I commend you for it.

People on this board try very hard to educate the AB, but most of the time the AB don't want to hear it. It's only when something hits home, that many people seem to grow a conscience.

 

No one expects you to know how many HC cabins there are on a ship.

Most of us don't either, although we tend to learn that number when again and again we are shut out of cruises [sometimes more than a year in advance] when ships fill their HC cabins.

I can tell you we've had to settle on our third choice for a cruise on a HAL Vista ship [which has 28 HC cabins, I believe] when all the HC rooms were booked on the first two choices. And that was almost a year out ...

 

If you find me [or any of us here] rude, it's because we are passionately defending our rights, or the rights of a loved one, to have an accessible room. Many of us don't couch our words in PC-speak. We're forthright and we're determined.

 

We have seen it over and over on these boards.

We've fought -- some have even thrown in the towel and figured the AB people just can't be educated.

 

But it all comes down to this: Responsibility for one's actions.

You are AB. You got an HC cabin.

Whether there are 2 or 20 or 200 such cabins on the ship, the bottom line is that you don't need an HC cabin.

It's pretty logical and a fairly simple concept.

[lindacat]

In defense of those AB passengers, sometimes we can get the wrong impression and maybe asking questions re: these cabins without all the facts.

 

About 6 years ago I was cruising with extended family on the Disney wonder. There was a problem with my brothers room. The pursers desk apologized and said that the only alternative room in the same category was a handicapped room. My brother was travelling with two small children (under age 6) and found this room comfortable. We were left with the impression that these rooms were the only ones that the cruise line couldn't sell.

 

I have also read about many people being assigned HC rooms when they have booked on a guarantee basis through the cruise line. These types of situations would lead those who have no knowledge about the number of HC rooms to the wrong assumptions.

 

I have cruised many times since that point and never needed nor asked for a HC room. The thought never crossed my mind. However recently my father has had some very serious health issues. We are cruising 8/25th. I called the cruise line to move my father to handicapped cabin and was told that they were all sold. My cruise had been selling prettly slowly and rooms had been discounted over the past few months, so I thought it was worth the shot, given our previous experience on the Wonder. I have rented a wheel chair for my father for our upcoming cruise and between my brother, sil, and I will push him around the ship and in port. Since my father can walk short distances he can manuever around the room. He has just fallen and broken his shoulder, so the handicapped bathroom would have been a big plus. But it wasn't until I came here that I found out just how scarce HC rooms on a ship really were.

 

 

As far as those who do know better and simply want a larger room, there is no excuse.

 

Linda

Perhaps there should be a

[Oceanwench]

Linda,

 

If you read these threads on this forum, you will often see members of the disabilities community agree that available HC cabins can be assigned to AB pax AFTER a certain deadline -- maybe a month out or so.

 

And most of us are aware that the GTY pax get the rooms that are not booked, HC or not.

 

No one I know has a quarrel with any of that.

 

However, I still find it funny how some people will get all riled up and say "The HC cabins should not be left empty!!!" As if 2 dozen rooms not booked on a 1,000-cabin ship would be a major event!

 

What I and others are protesting are the AB pax who deliberately book an HC room, figuring they get more space for the same price. Or those who may get assigned one early on, and upon learning about it do nothing ... they come up with excuses to justify keeping the room.

 

There have been countless threads on the various boards in which people actually brag about booking an HC room [all the while claiming they will give them up if an "real" person with disabilities needs it].

That's what upsets most of us.

[ehough]

I know everyone defending those with disabilities knows this all too well, but while I would agree that ignorance is never a positive thing, in this situation, it is an unfortunate and widespread occurrence. ABs who fully realize the challenges faced by disabled cruisers are in the minority. I would venture to say that most ABs, with the exception of others mentioned in this thread who book HC rooms on purpose, are uninformed, not uncaring (or selfish or dense). Ridiculing those who were simply unaware (and who, now that they are aware, have rectified the situation) is not going to change the situation, and is unnecessary. Note that I am not saying it is okay for the majority of ABs to be unaware or uninformed about the challenges faced by disabled cruisers, but that is the unfortunate state of cruising right now. To think "Well, they should have known", and to insult those who truly were unaware, is futile.

 

Certainly the ideal situation would be for everyone everywhere to know that there are a limited number of HC cabins on cruise ships, and that ABs will not likely get bumped from the cabin if someone requires it. Unfortunately, as I know you all know, this is not the case. As an AB I can speak firsthand of my ignorance and while I'm not proud of the fact that I am rather uninformed about HC cruising, I can say that before being handed an HC room I had never heard anything about the challenges faced by HC cruisers. I only mention this to further point out that while obviously ignorance is never a good thing, the fact of the matter is that when it comes to HC cruising, ignorance is not the exception, but the rule (so to speak). This does not excuse ignorance, but to insult and otherwise flame those who were/are ignorant will not serve to educate the ignorant in any way, shape, or form.

 

No, I do not park in HC spaces due to the fact that I realize there are people who actually require them- and I am not one of them.

 

Of course I realize when I see an HC designation on a ship's deck plan that those rooms are designated for those with abilities. But, mixed messages are sent when TA's hand these rooms to people who are AB. One would think that if the rooms are so valuable, they wouldn't just be handed off without a mention to someone who doesn't need them. Obviously this is not the case, but again calling an AB who has this happen to them selfish and dense is not only untrue, but unfair.

 

Had you carefully read my post, from which afterward you decided I was dense and selfish, you would realize I did not choose my cabin. Which is how I ended up with the HC cabin in the first place- I would never ask for one. So, I suppose I can't really answer whether or not I saw many or few HC symbols when choosing my cabin, although may I add that on the NCL website there are NOT wheelchair symbols. I believe the symbol they use is a square, which could also add to ABs not realizing how few HC cabins there are, seeing as how they're not clearly marked as HC (also considering that a lot of rooms on deck plans are marked with one symbol or another to indicate capacities and what not).

 

I understand, and fully support, that you and everyone on this board are passionately defending the rights of you or a loved one to have an accessible room. However, I still don't think that calls for name calling and insults, and even if you think it does, I, as an AB who has rectified the situation as best as she could, didn't deserve such insults.

 

Yes, as an AB I was handed an HC cabin. And as an AB, I officially handed it back so that someone who needs the room can have it. That was my entire point in all of this- as one of the few ABs who is trying hard to make things right, I'm being called dense and selfish.

[Oceanwench]

Good for you, ehough, giving back the cabin.

We can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya now. :)

 

This thread was started in reaction to another AB person who was interested in booking HC cabins ... then someone mentioned your thread on the NCL board.

 

This is your original post:

DH and I just booked our Pride of America cruise for Sept 2007. We used Cruise Compete, and the TA we worked with gave us a handicapped inside room in category K. We're not handicapped, although from what I understand a handicapped room is bigger than a standard room, and we're happy about that.

What differences can we expect between a standard inside room and a handicapped inside room? What do you suppose our chances are of being bumped from the room, seeing as how we're not handicapped and there may be a handicapped passenger who needs the room? Would we be bumped to a standard inside room?

Thanks for any help.

 

OK ... so you acknowledged you worked with a TA ... and she gave you an HC cabin. You acknowledge you are not handicapped ... and then you say you understand the cabin is bigger ... and you are "happy about that."

 

OK ... did you stop to think there was something wrong here? That perhaps there is a reason the room is bigger? Perhaps to accommodate a wheelchair or scooter? Ships make HC cabins available in most categories. Naturally the lowest-price categories will show the biggest space difference -- because a person in a wheelchair has to have room to manuever in the main cabin AND the bathroom. The difference in higher categories of room is not always so apparent.

 

Then you express concern that you could get bumped if a person with disabilities needs the room. That generally raises a red flag to me.

 

I don't think you need numbers and stats to tell you what HC means ... if someone says "those are seats for handicapped people" at a theater or auditorium, wouldn't you realize there's a REASON for the designation? Or would you sit there anyway?

 

If someone says your cabin in HC accessible, wouldn't you realize there's a REASON for the designation?

 

I would have questioned the TA. I would have done my homework, calling NCL if need be.

You post shows you knew the room was bigger [how did you discover that? deck plans?] and you considered the possibility of a bump.

So you did some homework .. just not enough, ehough.

[wrp96]

Had you carefully read my post, from which afterward you decided I was dense and selfish, you would realize I did not choose my cabin. Which is how I ended up with the HC cabin in the first place- I would never ask for one. So, I suppose I can't really answer whether or not I saw many or few HC symbols when choosing my cabin, although may I add that on the NCL website there are NOT wheelchair symbols. I believe the symbol they use is a square, which could also add to ABs not realizing how few HC cabins there are, seeing as how they're not clearly marked as HC (also considering that a lot of rooms on deck plans are marked with one symbol or another to indicate capacities and what not).

 

 

Enough, your cruise isn't until almost a year from now. Why haven't you called your TA back and demanded to be moved to a non-HC room?

[lindacat]

The point I was trying to make was that as an AB passenger who had never needed an accessible cabin, yet a family member received one on the day of sailing, and having read threads about them being assigned to guarantee passengers, I was not aware at how scarce they were.

 

I can see where this may lead to the misconception that these cabins often go vacant or are slow to sell. That was my impression. Until my father became ill, I didn't have any reason to frequent this particular board. I am sure that there are others who don't realize that the HC cabins are a scarce commodity.

 

Knowing that I am going to be cruising in a regular room when a HC room would be much more convenient makes me understand the situation much better. In fact knowing that my father can walk small distances would make me reluctant to sail in that room, knowing that it may keep someone who cannot walk small distances off the ship.

[ehough]

then you say you understand the cabin is bigger ... and you are "happy about that."

 

99% of the people on this board are looking for a way to get a larger cabin for the money they pay. I'm not going to excuse nor will I apologize for wanting more space for my money. Clearly I would be happy about getting more room and to say otherwise would be transparent and false. However, note that once I realized that getting said room would mean that an HC cruiser would be unable to cruise, I gave it back.

 

OK ... did you stop to think there was something wrong here? That perhaps there is a reason the room is bigger?

 

You seem to think that ABs don't realize that HC rooms are bigger for a reason. The problem is that most ABs don't realize the lack of bigger rooms, which again is not helped when they're handed out like candy to those who don't need them.

 

Then you express concern that you could get bumped if a person with disabilities needs the room. That generally raises a red flag to me.

 

You noted that I expressed concern about getting bumped from the room, and you seem to think this is a negative thing. On the contrary even in my ignorance about the lack of HC rooms, I realized that there are people who require the rooms and that I could be asked to give mine up. Nowhere did I say, "Gee I hope that doesn't happen", nor did I put any kind of negative slant on it. Any negativity you are reading is inferred by you and I can honestly say I was never upset about the possibility of being "bumped".

 

I don't think you need numbers and stats to tell you what HC means ... if someone says "those are seats for handicapped people" at a theater or auditorium, wouldn't you realize there's a REASON for the designation? Or would you sit there anyway?

 

Quite obviously nobody needs numbers and stats to tell them what HC means. But one would need numbers and stats to tell them about the lack of HC facilities onboard a cruise ship. I understand the need for HC designations. I understand that there is a reason for them. What I didn't understand is how few cabins actually have HC designations. There is a difference between understanding that HC cabins are built for people who need them and understanding that such cabins are few and far between on a cruise ship.

 

I would have questioned the TA. I would have done my homework, calling NCL if need be.

As far as questioning the TA, since I don't have all of the HC cabins committed to memory, I didn't know it was an HC cabin until I got off the phone with her. Once I discovered this and could have asked her about it, I couldn't reach her due to it being the weekend. The second I could reach her, I got this taken care of.

 

So, now you take issue with how I responded. It's not enough that I did respond, it's not enough that I *happily* gave it back after realizing just how precious that room was. You say you want to passionately defend your or your loved one's right to have an accessible room and yet when someone acts in accordance to that, you still have a problem.

 

I understand that the fight to get fair treatment for disabled cruisers is a long one, but your fight isn't with me. Perhaps your fight was with the me of one week ago, the me who was uninformed about disabled cruising. But I am learning what I can and doing what I can now that I know. I sincerely hope that you and others who are fighting for this cause don't continually get caught up in arguing with those who are genuinely trying to do what they personally can to improve cruise conditions for the disabled.

[ehough]

wrp36,

 

I called yesterday and got my room switched to a non-HC cabin, as well as reported the TA (although in all honesty her supervisor didn't sound all that concerned). Yesterday was the first opportunity I had to reach the TA after booking, due to the weekend, and I got it taken care of.

[Oceanwench]

Good for you.

You did the right thing.

[wrp96]

wrp36,

 

I called yesterday and got my room switched to a non-HC cabin, as well as reported the TA (although in all honesty her supervisor didn't sound all that concerned). Yesterday was the first opportunity I had to reach the TA after booking, due to the weekend, and I got it taken care of.

 

Good for you on reporting the TA.