Do you think RCCL has done a bad job with Celebrity?

[RCCLCARIB]

Hi All:

 

I am from the RCCL board and recently read an artcile on the Oceania Cruises board that said RCCL has not done a good job with Celebrity Cruises as an "upscale" line.

 

Do you agree with that statement?

 

Also, are some of you having mixed feelings about the Soltice Class of Ships?

[Jimsgirl]

I think Celebrity is the Cinderella in the family. You cannot have two "jockeys" facing in opposite directions riding the same horse.

 

I think the trend to bigger and bigger is not a good idea. lookeat Cunard QM2, most places she cannot dock, and tendering is not the favourite pastimes of passengers. What is the use of having so many passengers trying to attend a function when there are not enough seats or breathing room? When it takes two hours to line up waiting to board or disembark.? Tempers just get frayed.

[Sky Sweet]

Hi All:

 

I am from the RCCL board and recently read an artcile on the Oceania Cruises board that said RCCL has not done a good job with Celebrity Cruises as an "upscale" line.

 

Do you agree with that statement?

 

Also, are some of you having mixed feelings about the Soltice Class of Ships?

 

A few years ago, if someone asked if Celebrity is an upscale line, I would have said yes without any qualification. Initially, Celebrity strove to create and maintain a product that appealed to its target demographic and did an excellent job. However, now Celebrity is trying to be all things to all people, which is almost impossible to do well. Consequently, its product varies substanitally, depending upon the ship, prime vs off season, and itinerary.

 

I still think that Celebrity's product is excellent on cruises that are positioned to attract its original target demographic.

[caviargal]

A few years ago, if someone asked if Celebrity is an upscale line, I would have said yes without any qualification. Initially, Celebrity strove to create and maintain a product that appealed to its target demographic and did an excellent job. However, now Celebrity is trying to be all things to all people, which is almost impossible to do well. Consequently, its product varies substanitally, depending upon the ship, prime vs off season, and itinerary.

 

I still think that Celebrity's product is excellent on cruises that are positioned to attract its original target demographic.

 

I agree with most of this as stated.

 

I do think that the move to larger ships is not appealing to true fans of X. On the RCI board, a HUGE deal was made of Freedom and now Genesis is being discussed with equal anticipation. One man's trash is another's treasure, though I know that some move back and forth between lines without issue.

 

Having sailed on FOS and several Voyager class ships, I can tell you that these monsters are of absolutely no interest to me as a cruiser and I much prefer the smaller ships that Celebrity offers. Food and personal service are decidedly compromised. Shorts and t shirts in the dining room have become commonplace. And recent posters indicate the same is happening on X ships. Very sad...

 

RCI has done away with Sommeliers and decent wine glasses. The head waiter apologized profusely for not being able to decant a reserve Cab that we paid $90 a bottle for on RCI last month; they could not even provide a decent glass. My sommelier on Mercury last fall told me that his job is being phased out to cut costs.:mad: I so hope this is not true.

 

RCI is now partnering with New Balance to have shops onboard. Add this to the onboard mall which already includes SBC Coffee, Ben and Jerry's Johnny Rockets. As a fan of X since my first cruise with them in the early 90s (I used to be a fan of RCI as well) this is a total turn off.

 

I also believe that RCI has not invested enough in maintaining the X fleet, which is a sin, IMO. Instead, they are investing their $$$ in building ever larger Monsters of the Seas.

 

Just my personal observations.

[m steve]

After seeing X commercials on TV and having cruised w/ Carnival and NCL first we thought that X was the way to go for us. More services, better food and personalized treatment w/o going to the super ships at $500+ a day. We last cruised w/X a year and a half ago and have had 2 Princess and a HAL cruise since then we are now scheduled for a Dec. X cruise. I guess we will see if they still are a better line than the other mid priced lines who offer 10+ day cruises. We are planning a Mediterranean cruise in 07 and will decide after this cruise if we will travel w/ HAL, Princess or X. We like the CC class cabins and wish that they really offered real upscale perks for the extra charges. I think every cabin could be CC if you preferred a special location. It doesn't make sense to have one deck w/ 90% CC cabin but the corner Family cabins w/o the extra services. I would like to see a super level where drinks of all kinds were included so X could be a step up from HAL but just below Silversea.

[katiebeth]

Sadly, I must agree that RCI is not maintaining the Celebrity fleet in the manner that it should. We were in a Royal Suite in June of this year for a 12 day Med. cruise and were disappointed with the overall condition of the Suite given the amount of money we paid. It was definitely showing signs of wear and tear (stains on the curtains, sofas, carpet, mold in the shower, etc.) I truthfully felt like we paid Ritz Carlton prices for Holiday Inn type accomodations. The cruise overall was terrific, but we were definitely taken back by the condition of the suite.

 

From what I have read, it appears that other mass market cruise lines offer much better perks for suite guests (free dry cleaning/laundry, plusher bedding, dedicated lounges, etc.). We have sailed CC class on Celebrity as well and felt that the perks were just as good, if not better, than those for suite guests.

 

We did sail on the Constellation in July of 2003 when she had only been sailing for 10 months and loved every minute of the cruise. (Norweign Fjords and British Isles).

 

After this summers experience on Millennium we have been looking at other cruise lines. However, we want to cruise the Baltics next summer and I haven't found another cruise line that has as good of an itinerary as Celebrity. We are currently holding space on the Constellation. I am hoping that somehow the Constellation has been better maintained than the Millennium.

 

Oceania has a terrific itinerary (as good or better than Constellation) but we travel with our children ages 11 and 13 and am concerned that Oceania may not be a good choice for children.

 

If there was a new ship with another cruise line sailing the Baltics next summer we would definitely consider it. We have sailed Celebrity exclusively for the past few years, but do believe the product has declined.

 

M Steve ...Unless Celebrity has a significant refurbishment scheduled for the Milllennium (not just a drydock, which I don't think they do) I would consider other lines. Princess has a new ship that is scheduled to set sail in April 2007 with a great Med. itinerary. I think it is the Emerald Princess. If we were to do the Med. again, I would give very very serious thought to booking that ship.

 

Anyway, as a loyal Celebrity customer, I would love to see some changes. I think an overall "sprucing up" program is needed as well as some new and exciting onboard experiences. It seems that they need to launch some type of "new and improved" initiative.

 

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

 

Nancy

[C 2 C]

RCL is in the business to make money for their shareholders. Celebrity was generating less cash per passenger than RCL. If you take a look at similar size ships, RCL carries about 10% more passengers than X. I think that there is insufficient profit in small ships and there is no major cruise brand building them. The luxury brands charge way more for cruising on the small ships. I just don't know how much more a person would be willing to pay to cruise on a smaller ship. As an investment, Carnival does better.

A person who studies income statements could answer the specifics of each cruise brand but my gut tells me that younger passengers would spend more per day per square foot of hull space than the demographic that Celebrity attracts.

[cruiser2004]

Hi All:

 

I am from the RCCL board and recently read an artcile on the Oceania Cruises board that said RCCL has not done a good job with Celebrity Cruises as an "upscale" line.

 

Do you agree with that statement?

 

Also, are some of you having mixed feelings about the Soltice Class of Ships?

 

Hi Rcclcarib, The statement that RCCL has not done a good job with Ceelbrity Cruises as an "upscale" line is in my opinion absolutly true. While I really don't know who is really in control of Celebrity - Celebrity or RCCL, who ever it is is not doing Celebrity any favors. The problems aside from ship maintenance and of course ignoring the pod issue in M-Class ships seems to come from the land based operations, ie customer service.

I also have mixed feelings about the Soltice Class of ships. Having new ships in good condition is always a good thing, but with the number of passengers that have been driven away by Celebrity, filling these large ships may be an issue.

[PatC]

I agree with most of the posters here. We have sailed Celebrity since 1992 on Horizon, Zenith, Century class and M-class ships and have seen such a decline it's sad. We always loved Celeb's treatment of it's passengers. While the crews are more friendly than in the past, the amenities have gone by the wayside. The food has gone down hill, although we still love some things, and the overall "experience" has declined. We noted this when RCI took over and thought we'd do that "wait and see". We have waited and what we see we don't like. We've never sailed a Celeb ship that was dirty or unkept. Even if some wear and tear was seen, it was always clean.

 

The advertising on board and prices for items are out of hand. The fees for things that just shouldn't be have made us take second looks at the line and the Captain's Club leaves so much to be desire. We are Elite and don't feel that there are any perks at all to speak of. While RCI takes care of their loyal customers, Celebs are stranded in a time warp! Now RCI decides to use Meyer-Werft to build the new Solstice class ships. What made them change back??? Maybe because the Horizon class and Century Class ships were built by them and they are the better product????

 

Anyway, we're scheduled to sail next March on Galaxy. We've sailed her before. We'll see what happens and if we switch lines.

 

One thing I will say, much to our enjoyment, we've always had great cabin attendants, wait staff and overall crews. Even on Horizon during the "Legionaires cruise" in 1995. Yup, the one where we all were flown home from Bermuda. They treated us "royally" and that's when we decided to stick with Celeb. Now, we're not so sure.:(

[kitty9]

I can concur with much of what's been said on this thread. I've seen a general downturn with X since my very first cruise on them. I think the food has generally gotten to the point where it's not much different than any other mass market line, and in some cases the food is worse, and the new menu hasn't helped. I feel the service on most of the ships has stayed the same, but general upkeep of some of the fleet is suffering, mostly with the C class ships.

 

I saw this same thing happening with Seabourn. When I first cruised with them, they were an independent cruise line, and then Carnival took over. The ships suffered in all respects. Their loyal clientele left and then finally Carnival woke up. They made a concerted effort to make Seabourn what it was before the takeover, and they have succeeded. Seabourn is again the super wonderful line that it was before Carnival showed up.

[grandsix]

RCL is in the business to make money for their shareholders. Celebrity was generating less cash per passenger than RCL. If you take a look at similar size ships, RCL carries about 10% more passengers than X. I think that there is insufficient profit in small ships and there is no major cruise brand building them. The luxury brands charge way more for cruising on the small ships. I just don't know how much more a person would be willing to pay to cruise on a smaller ship. As an investment, Carnival does better.

A person who studies income statements could answer the specifics of each cruise brand but my gut tells me that younger passengers would spend more per day per square foot of hull space than the demographic that Celebrity attracts.

 

We agree, RCL is in business to make money for the stockholders. In order to grow, they must continue to attract a new demographic at affordable prices.

[caviargal]

RCL is in the business to make money for their shareholders. Celebrity was generating less cash per passenger than RCL. If you take a look at similar size ships, RCL carries about 10% more passengers than X. I think that there is insufficient profit in small ships and there is no major cruise brand building them. The luxury brands charge way more for cruising on the small ships. I just don't know how much more a person would be willing to pay to cruise on a smaller ship. As an investment, Carnival does better.

A person who studies income statements could answer the specifics of each cruise brand but my gut tells me that younger passengers would spend more per day per square foot of hull space than the demographic that Celebrity attracts.

 

Not sure about that last statement. RCI attracts a ton of families, many of whom are on fairly tight budgets and interested in value. I know that my tab at the end of a cruise includes a fair amount of bar tabs, a high percentage of dinners in the specialty restaurants, many nice bottles of wine, fitness classes, etc. We book upper category cabins in general and, throughout a week cruise, the true "cost" for the two of us has to be less than that of a family of four when laundry, etc. is all considered. I imagine that as a couple, we spend a good bit more than most families of 4 cruising on RCI and cost the cruise line less.

 

RCI provides extensive kids facilities and programs which are costly. Their new ships are virtual paradises for kids and this all comes with the package. These folks want lots of activities, a casual atmosphere and food that is more about availability and quantity than service and quality. The changes I have seen in RCI over the past 25 years have been extreme and not in a positive way.

 

Lines with small ships like Oceania are sailiing quite full and there a good number of extra charges on this line as well including high drink prices, water, etc. Do you think these are less profitable?

 

If RCI continues to change X to the point where it is no different from RCI, then why bother having two lines? Homogenize them and diehard X fans will go elsewhere and I imagine not to RCI.

[Sky Sweet]

We agree, RCL is in business to make money for the stockholders. In order to grow, they must continue to attract a new demographic at affordable prices.

 

If Celebrity decides to grow in that manner, they might become a victim of the Peter Principle, by no longer being the same product that made them successful in the first place.

 

Would it be profitable for Celebrity to grow by attracting a new demographic at affordable prices, if they lose the type of passenger who is willing to pay more for an upscale cruise experience in the process?

 

In addition, people have a tendency to view incidentals as a percentage of what they paid for the cruise itself. Therefore, people who pay more for a cruise are likely to spend more on incidentals during that cruise.

 

Another thing to consider is that there is currently a lot of competition from other cruise lines for that market. Celebrity has traditionally been an excellent "value" because it was a step above the other mass market cruise lines without the price tag of the luxury ones. That is why I think it would be a mistake for them to focus on attracting new customers by being price instead of quality of product.

[ocngypz]

In one word, yes. For a myriad of reasons. Still, after 9 years of owning the brand, corporate is still directionless when it comes to Celebrity.

 

It's been the... "let's throw it out there and see what sticks".

 

ARGH

[Brucemcdou]

Hi, RCCLCARIB - thank you for posting a thoughtful question, and thanks all for posting thoughtful answers. I've only been cruising since 2000, so did not see Celebrity pre-RCI to compare it to after. Over six years of cruising on Celebrity and other lines, I do believe that X continues to distinguish itself from the other mass-market lines. It is not and was never meant to be a "luxury" line, but does just enough to put itself a step above the others while keeping their prices competitive with the mass market lines. In my opinion just from my cruising experiences, HAL is the only other line that has managed to do this.

 

I think the issue is shaped by the fact that the mass-market lines' food, service and overall experience has gradually declined. This has allowed them to attract a larger and larger slice of the traveling public through lower fares and a more casual experience. While (again, IMHO) X has managed to distinguish itself from those other lines, the differences needed to do so have changed - declined, as it were.

 

As an example, I was just on Royal Caribbean's Jewel of the Seas for a Baltic cruise. While we had a wonderful trip, thought the ship was beautiful, and were very pleased with the service, we could see numerous differences that set the Jewel apart from a typical X experience. A few include the buffet experience, where Jewel gives you a big melamine platter where all your food runs together whereas X gives you a tray with a linen cloth, on which you can put your china and keep your salad separate from your pasta, for example. The dining room menu on Jewel has three courses, X has five. The coffee bar, where on Jewel you have to stand in a line to get coffee that's served in a paper cup. On X a server will bring you coffee in a china cup and saucer. The Solarium vs. the Aqua Spa Cafe, where Jewel gives you a paper bowl and plastic-wrapped knife and fork, X uses real china and silverware. Jewel has no Sommeliers, anywhere, and X has them, everywhere. The Specialty restaurants on Jewel didi not provide what I would consider a fine dining experience. And on and on. But RCCL is aimed at a different demographic, and I emphatically do not agree that X is aiming at the same demographic. I would make the same comparisons with Princess, and NCL is in a whole 'nuther class by itself.

 

Given that the prices are generally similar, I look at it more as consumption lifestyle choices. My brother and I for example, both spent the same amount of money for a place to live: I have a condo in a big city, he has a house in a suburb. We spent the same for a car to drive: he has an SUV, I have a small Japanese luxury car. We're not spending more money, we're just choosing to buy a different experience. Not everyone wants the same experience, and that's why there are different cruiselines with different onboard experiences.

 

So do I think that service and the experience has "declined" on X since RCCL took them over? Perhaps, but it is still giving me a nicer experience than what I can get on RCCL, Princess or NCL at a price that I can currently afford. I agree with Sky Sweet's earlier comment that X provides their best service on cruises that attract their target demographic: on longer, more expensive cruises you seem to get the best service overall. We'll avoid the caribbean, and avoid 7-day cruises from now on.

 

Regarding the new builds, X has stated that the cabins will be larger, and that the ship will provide other distinctive luxury touches. We're all waiting to see the deck plans and read the detailed descriptions. So long as the ship has any inside cabins or small ocean-view cabins, they will have to continue to market it to bargain-hunters to some extent, so don't expect them to suddenly morph into a luxury line. I just hope that they continue to maintain the small differences that set them apart.

[sharpie13]

Being a couple in our forty's with chidren 17 and 19 we may not fit the Celebrity demographic, but we like the general package.

 

We like the service,

we like the five course meals,

we like the dress code being enforced,

we like the elegant interiors

we like the can-do attitude of the staff

we like the how personable the ship's officers are

we like being welcomed aboard with a glass of champagne and being escorted to our cabin

 

however,

we've seen a few things in the past few year that have raised alarms

no more cloth hand towels in public lavatories

general deterioration of the ship's maintenance

Way too many propulsion problems, short port times, and port cancellations

 

I still think Celebrity has a lot more to offer than other lines, however, I've become much more open into trying HAL or another well appointed line.

[newmexicoNita]

You know I don't think it has too much to do with RCI as much as what some have said in different ways; all mass marketed lines are pretty much the same now days: Competition has caused this: ships are bigger, prices have stablized and inflation continues to go up (not much but some) food and services are bound to suffer. To be truely a luxury or even a premium line the ships have to stay small, keep prices up and offer something Celebrity just can't do anymore. We couldn't wait to sail the Connie a few years ago as we had heard how much better Celebrity was than the other lines: Was or is it better? Yes, about 1/2 step up with great meat dishes I may add, but is it what we had led to believe? far from it. With the request that we all stay in our formal wear during formal nights, the champagne upon arrival and other little niceties, the line is trying to keep it's reputation as being a step above. NMNita

[C 2 C]

So long as the ship has any inside cabins or small ocean-view cabins, they will have to continue to market it to bargain-hunters to some extent, so don't expect them to suddenly morph into a luxury line. I just hope that they continue to maintain the small differences that set them apart.

 

Great post

[cruiser2004]

I think the answers above make it pretty obvious to everyone except maybe Celebrity that there are problems.

With the ever growing number of dis-satisfied passengers with the condition

of Celebrity ships and the lack of customer service, as noted on this thread,

I think there will be a tricke down or trickle up effect, if you will, to RCL.

I know for myself that I have always wanted to try RCL, but after my experience on my last Celebrity cruise I would be very afraid that I might encounter the same type of experience on RCL.

[Post Captain]

I am pleased to say that in my own admittedly limited experience of sailing on Celebrity ships (see signature details below) the line has "exceeded expectations." By the same token, based on what I have read here & elsewhere, it seems inevitable that service & ambience will slowly (or perhaps not slowly?) deteriorate.

 

For one thing, John Chandris is no longer on RCI's board of directors, I believe; the Chandris family no longer has a determinative business interest in the firm, and thus "Celebrity" exists merely as a brand name under the RCI corporate umbrella. It has been nearly ten years since RCI acquired Celebrity; after a decent interval (the late '90s/early '00s) when Celebrity was allowed to flourish more or less as an independent line, I would not be surprised if, for financial reasons, RCI now has less motivation to maintain Celebrity as the "old" Celebrity that that line's loyal passengers know & love.

 

Like it or not, all businesses--not just companies in the cruise industry--change over time, often evolving into entities that their founders would find unrecognizable. For example, the AT&T of today is "AT&T" in name only, having virtually nothing to do with the AT&T of an earlier generation. So it is with cruise lines. HAL, for example, run out of an office in Seattle and under the Carnival corporate umbrella, is not the Dutch company that was headquartered in Rotterdam; the name remains the same, & a certain continuity with the past is maintained on a superficial level, but would passengers who knew the old Nieuw Amsterdam, Statendam, and Rotterdam recognize the same line in today's Noordam? Likewise, Cunard struggles to maintain something of its old identity while part of the Carnival empire, but the experience one has aboard the QM2 is not what one would have had on the old Queen Mary...

 

I for one do mourn the trend away from smaller, more intimate ships to new Behemoths of the Seas, Monstrosities of the Waves... Soon one will have to sail out of Britain or the Mediterranean in order to enjoy the experience of ships on a more human scale.

[Jumbie]

For those who think that things are declining on X, I feel (and this is just my opinion) that you might be in for more of the same.

 

For anyone who remembers me from a while back on these boards, my g/f works on X. I'm pretty busy these days with school so I don't visit these boards much but I do so every now and then and this thread caught my eye.

 

I can't go into any details (as a while back it is my understanding that X does monitor these boards from time to time; as well they should IMO) as I don't know if this should be public disclosure and I don't want to get her into any trouble but over the last 6+ months she has told me about numerous changes that X is making with their employees (and what they can or can't do on board) and it seems that many of those changes are aimed at cutting costs for the company e.g. downsizing certain departments.

 

I somehow doubt that those savings are going to be passed on to you, their customers. Of course, I could be wrong and your cruising experience may improve.

 

Finally, I'd like to mention something I've seen on posted on this board over and over - that while most enjoy their on-board experience dealing with anything post- or pre-cruise tends to be an exercise in frustration that leaves one wanting to bang their head into a wall. It seems that the same holds true for staff as well. While my g/f enjoys her job and time on the ship tremendously, anything having to do with head office in Miami seems to be extremely inefficient, and like others have said in this thread regarding the company, seemingly lacking in direction.

 

Here's an example that I recall her mentioning from her last contract. A staff member who lives in Europe had their contract ending after the current cruise which was crossing the Atlantic back to North America. Instead of disembarking them before the crossing, X had them stay on the short remainder of the transatlantic cruise and then flew them back home a few days later. Seems pretty wasteful to me. Oh, I should specify that this was in a non-critical department where there was more than enough staff to cover this person's absence. It's not like someone would be losing their cabin steward, let's say.

[Drew B]

however,

we've seen a few things in the past few year that have raised alarms

no more cloth hand towels in public lavatories

general deterioration of the ship's maintenance

Way too many propulsion problems, short port times, and port cancellations

 

 

I found cloth hand towels in the public lavatories when I sailed Summit in May.

[Sky Sweet]

I found cloth hand towels in the public lavatories when I sailed Summit in May.

 

They were also on the Constellation during our recent Baltic Cruise that ended in July.

[newmexicoNita]

I found cloth hand towels in the public lavatories when I sailed Summit in May.

We did as well in December and someone just the other day mentioned what a nice touch it was: they have just gotten off a Celebrity ship but I don't know which one. NMnita

[Captain Cosmo]

I agree that it appears to be going downhill, and I am also not interested in the Solstice class due to the higher number of passengers it will carry. My first cruise was a great experience but was not at the level that I had been led to believe it would be by their advertising. The buffets were not even up to the quality of the average hotel - and the grand midnight buffet on the last formal night? I don't consider cold cuts and cheese to be a "grand buffet" - even if you spruce it up with carved fruit and such. Even some of the dining room entrees were somewhat bland. The alternative restaurant that you pay extra for - the US United States on the Infinity - was great, but does require an additional charge. Faced with unreliable propulsion systems and lawsuits over missed ports and ever-changing itineraries, RC responds by buying a wornout group of ships from a Spanish cruiseline. While many of the stockholders were thrilled when shares went up after this purchase they missed the fact that Standard and Poors had reduced RC's loan rating to "Junk", citing the fact that they already have several ships on order and was borrowing to buy the Spanish line. My best guess - look for Celebrity to be "absorbed" into Royal Carribean.