Madrid, Zurich, Frankfurt pre-cruise...pick one and why?

[Bruin Steve]

Okay, we've decided to do the Constellation Northern Europe cruise July 16, 2005...
...and figure we'll use our American Airlines Frequent Flyer miles...

Now, American lets you do sort of a "triangle" to Europe, making a stop either on the way or on the way back in one other city...but, they have changed the rules and no longer allow you to use "partner airlines " (It's complicated, but that seems to be the net effect)...

So, we appear to be limited to a choice of: Paris, Rome, Madrid, Zurich, Frankfurt, Brussels or Helsinki...

We've spent time recently in Rome, Paris and Helsinki...Brussels would be cool, but for me it means spending a lot of time with relatives...

So, looking mainly at MAdrid, Zurich and Frankfurt...

Figuring we've got about 5 nights...arriving on the 10th, needing to be in London by the 15th...

Budget is somewhat of a concern...we'd like to do this as a quick and cheap add-on to a 14 night cruise...we're not looking to spend more on 5 days than we're spending on the cruise itself...

Obviously, we're not bound to the cities in question themselves, but, it's not like we have the time to travel all over Spain in, basically, four days either...

So, friends, if youy were in my shoes, what would you do?

Summit, July 3, 2004: Alaska: 13 night cruisetour
Constellation, July 16, 2005: Northern Europe: 14 nights

[Nidwaldner]

Well since I live in Switzerland I vote for flying into ZRH, catching the train right at the airport to the Jungfrau Region (Grindelwald or Muerren near Interlaken) and renting an apartment in a chalet (very reasonably priced out of ski season and also allows you to save money by self-catering). Get a Berner Oberland Pass to travel all over on trains, cable cars, buses, boats, etc. at substantial savings or free as far as Montreux, Lucerne and Zermatt (you could even apply some of the dicounts to the train ride from the airport if you ordered it ahead of time).

[url="http://www.grindelwald.com/"]http://www.grindelwald.com/[/url]
[url="http://www.regiopass-berneroberland.ch/engl/ticket.htm"]http://www.regiopass-berneroberland.ch/engl/ticket.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.rail.ch/"]http://www.rail.ch/[/url]
[url="http://www.wengen-muerren.ch/flash/intro-de-muerren.html"]http://www.wengen-muerren.ch/flash/intro-de-muerren.html[/url]


Eastern Med/Greek Isles-Star Princess 9/25/04

Alaska-Sun Princess 8/4/03


Western Caribbean-Grand Princess 12/28/03

[rodan]

I would opt for Zurich. Its a beautiful city and the train is right there-you can hop to Lake Lucerne (less than an hour away). You can also hit other areas in Switzerland very easily by train especially with 5 days. It is a small country-do it.

[Aussie Gal]

I vote for Madrid. We spent six days there in 2000 and there was so much to see. It is a beautiful city, not unlike Paris with the wide boulevards and fountains at the roundabouts.

We have been to Zurich and it is a lovely city. How often does one get to Madrid. It is an expereince to see two Spanish cities so different in character as Madrid and Barcelona. They are like chalk and cheese.

Jennie.

The next cruise is always the best!

3RD OCTOBER, 2004 PRINSENDAM
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=228b22&cdt=2004;10;03;17;0;00&timezone=GMT+0100[/img]

[dbh62ark]

I've been to all three too (they're all great choices in my opinion) and like the Zurich option the best. We enjoyed seeing Zurich, and that took about 2 days (went to the Swiss National Museum, the gardens, both of Frommers walking tours, boat ride on the lake for the great scenery, side trip to Uetliberg, etc.). We took a train to Lucerne, and it's fabulous. We also rented a car and visited some of the small villages, and Murren (see [url="http://www.frommers.com/destinations/murren/2578010001.html"]http://www.frommers.com/destinations/murren/2578010001.html[/url]) was my favorite. Switzerland is so gorgeous--I just don't think you can go wrong there.

Hope you have a great time, whatever you decide.

Donna

[petlover]

Steve,
I've been fortunate enough to spend a fair amount of time in all the cities you're considering. My vote would go to Zurich (not for Zurich itself but for the areas around it). The train system is fantastic in Switzerland and it is truly the most beautiful country I've ever visited. It really is like the postcards you see. Drawback: it is not cheap!!

Belgium would be my 2nd choice. Brussels and Brugge are also wonderful places to visit!

Have a great time whatever you decide!

[i]Marcie[/i]

[img]http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/2004166967450561983036.jpg[/img]

[Bruin Steve]

Just a couple of notes after seeing the responses so far:

I've actually been to all three before at least once...But it's been some time...

I was in Switzerland twice: In 1975 (alone, as a college kid) and in 1981 (on our honeymoon)...In 1975, I went to Murren and to the top of the Schilthorn and ate in the revolving restaurant with a couple of other folks who convinced me it would be a cool thing to hike down...they didn't go, but I did--by myself...Only a short way down, it started to snow (this was the night of July 29-30, 1975), completely covering the trail and everything else in a blanket of white...I took a plastic poncho out of my backpack and used it as a sled for parts...Found my way to the "Schilthornhut" operated by the Murren Ski Club and spent the night there...the next morning the skies had cleared and I continued down to Murren...

Madrid pales a bit in my mind compared to other cities in Spain...except for the Prado...and my wife has only been to Barcelona...My great memory from Madrid was stopping to see a movie before catching the train out...I was with a couple of friends, one of whom spoke no Spanish...the movie was "El Jovencito Frankenstein" by Mel Brooks...Could they possibly dub that into Spanish? Well, they did...

Frankfurt, itself, I am not fond of in the least...but the idea would be to rent a car...between Frankfurt and Munich, we have the "Romantischestrasse": Wurzburg, Rothenburg -ob-dem-Tauber, Dinkelsbuhl and Nordlingen...and then ther's Bavaria, including Fussen (we saw these on our honeymoon as well--charming) or to the north, there's the Rhine and Moselle Valleys...

Summit, July 3, 2004: Alaska: 13 night cruisetour
Constellation, July 16, 2005: Northern Europe: 14 nights

[aclay]

I'm from the UK, have lived in Munich for five years and now Switzerland for six years.
My recommendation:
- If you like incredibly pretty scenery- come to Zurich, don't stay in the city but venture out by train (discounted rail passes available) to take it all in. IF the weather's nice it will be awesome.
- If you want historic buildings, a real buzzing city feel with passion and lots of history- go to Madrid.
- Forget Frankfurt unless you are particularly keen on drinking lots of beer, wearing leather trousers and driving very fast on the highway (I particularly would not recommend doing all these three simultaneously;-)))).
Sure the south of Germany is pretty e.g. Neuschwanstein Fairytale style Castle, pls the black forest, but cross the border into Switzerland and the natural beauty cannot be compared IMHO.
Enjoy and if you choose Switzerland, hope for 'schönes Wetter' (beautiful weather)
Alex

[carlmm]

As a German I just can beg you not to believe the negative stereotype given by the above poster. If you are yearning for beautiful scenery, history, modern life or great museums you will find it in Germany.
Nevertheless given you choice I would not recommend Frankfurt as it does not have to offer enough for fives day compared to Madrid. If you want to stay in one of the cities you are thinking about for the whole time my vote goes to Madrid. You will find plenty to do.
Only if you want to travel around by car or train I would recommend Switzerland or Germany. Both of these options have the advantage of adding a different scenery and travel experience to your trip.

[Globaliser]

[quote name='Bruin Steve']Now, American lets you do sort of a "triangle" to Europe, making a stop either on the way or on the way back in one other city...but, they have changed the rules and no longer allow you to use "partner airlines " (It's complicated, but that seems to be the net effect)...[/QUOTE]Are you sure about this? Have you had a look at [URL=http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/awards/awardCharts/all_airline_chart.jhtml]this chart[/URL] for "all partner" awards? There are also [URL=https://www.aa.com/apps/AAdvantage/ViewMileageProgramsPartnerDetail.jhtml?fileName=oneWorld.xml&repositoryName=AAdvantagePartnersContentRepository&repositoryId=11000232&itemDescriptor=AAdvantagePartnersContent#2][B]one[/B]world awards[/URL].

Out of the three places you list, I'd definitely put Frankfurt bottom of the list as a city. However, if you are keen or prepared to get out of the cities whose airports you're using, then it is very easy to get to the prettiest part of the Rhine, which lies north from Frankfurt towards Cologne (Köln) - the prettiest part being that between Koblenz and Bingen. Or if you went south, you could easily get to Heidelberg, and some interesting old cathedral cities nearby (Speyer and Worms come to mind).

[Bruin Steve]

[quote name='Globaliser']Are you sure about this? [/QUOTE]

I'm fairly sure...I've called the AAdvantage desk three times now, figuring I might get someone with a different take...

Last time we did Europe by AAdvantage in 2001 for our Baltic cruise, we were allowed to fly into Copenhagen via Brussels on Sabena, do the Copenhagen RT cruise, then fly SwissAir from Copenhagen to London via Zurich, spend a week in Britain and flew AA home non-stop Heathrow to LAX...

The rules have apparently changed so that you can only fly directly to and from Europe from the US, but can still make that one extra stop in Europe...

Since AA only flies directly into London, Manchester, Paris, Rome, Frankfurt and Zurich...and travel partners Iberia flies into Madrid and FinnAir into Helsinki...and other travel partners only duplicate those cities, those are the ONLY cities one can now stop in...

For example, under the old system, one could fly into Prague by routing it through London on BriitishAirways and still hit London on the way home, the "direct US to Europe" thing precludes this since it would be 3 European stops--London-Prague-London ...

But, stopping in Madrid works because we can fly LAX to Chicago directly to Madrid...then Madrid to London and London non-stop home to LAX...that counts as only 2 European stops...

The "OneWorld" thing doesn't work for us...The mileage requirement is based on miles...since we live on the West Coast, round trip flights to Europe require an additional 6,000+ miles than they do East Coasters, bumping us up a few categories in awards costs...It would take 90,000 miles rather than 60,000 per person to do that same LA to Madrid to London to LA route via a "OneWorld" award (I'm assuming trips to Asia MAY work to our advantage with OneWorld, but you don't know until you price it).

It looks now like we're zeroing in on Madrid...

Questions are, assuming we leave Saturday July 9 for Madrid and arrive Sunday, July 10, whether to spend 4 nights in Madrid and two in London pre-cruise or 5 in Madrid and one in London...

I figure hotel nights in Madrid have got to be far less cost...I've seen four star hotels in Madrid on the net for UNDER $100 per night...and in London, I figure on doing the hotel through Celebrity (This year's prices were $212 per person for one night at the Hilton Metropole, including the transfer to Dover...figuring the one-way Dover transfer at $67 per person, that makes the room $290 per night!)...So, the 4/2 will cost at least $200 more than the 5/1...and we've been to London recently...

Then, the question is...What to do in Madrid? The Prado, of course...But, what else? Or, with as many as 5 days, do we NOT stay in Madrid, but take a train or rental car and head down to Cordoba and/or Seville and/or Granada for part of that time? Is it practical to do so? Say, stay in Madrid Sunday night, but head to Grenada, Cordoba and Seville for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday...then back to Madrid for Thursday night and fly to London Friday? Or is that biting off too much?

Lots to consider...

[vivian02]

Even though most are putting Frankfurt at the bottom of the list I find Frankfurt the easiest to travel out of. All one has to do is cross the street at the air port and you are at the train station. Purchase a ticket and one can be in Frieburg in two and a half hours. From there it is easy to go futher up into the black forest or be in Switzerland in less than an hour. Lodging in the black forest is cheap and the food is great. Just my thoughts. Oh, the Dunkel Beer is great!

Norwegian Sky 5/03
Norwegian Star 11/03
Royal Caribbean Splendor of the Seas 5/04

[Globaliser]

[quote name='Bruin Steve']For example, under the old system, one could fly into Prague by routing it through London on BriitishAirways and still hit London on the way home, the "direct US to Europe" thing precludes this since it would be 3 European stops--London-Prague-London ...[/QUOTE]OK - I think I'm understanding the problem, although I don't know the details of this as I've never tried to get an AAdvantage award so far.

If there is somewhere that you would absolutely love to do, but are caught out by this rule (and by the higher oneworld award price), don't forget that many places are easy and cheap to fly to from London. So even if the AA award only goes as far as London (or you have to nominate that as one of your two European stops), you should be able to buy a fairly cheap add-on ticket from London to your desired other European destination. And ironically, a good place to get those tickets is aa.com.

[mjh]

Jennie,

Where did you stay in Madrid. I'm looking for a hotel in the Puerto Del Sol or Plaza Mayor area. The couple I'm considering are Carlos V and Preciados. Spending a couple of nights in Madrid before traveling to Barcelona for a cruise.

Thanks

[Tatka]

I like Germany..have friends living there in Aachen, Koln, Nurenberg, Hamburg, Bremen, Munchen ..., all interesting places to visit. I've been to Frankfurt couple of times (mostly when flying to Ukraine, my former homeland), I just don't think this city compares favorably to what Madrid or Zurich can offer.

I would go for Zurich, but then again I agree with poster about it's much easier to visit it separately with all airlines promotions running during the year. I would go for Madrid.

My personal favourite is Belgium ( Brugge and Brussels) but it wasn't listed. :)

[Aussie Gal]

mjh,

We stayed at the beautiful Westin Palace which is a wonderful old style hotel opposite one of the beautiful roundabouts in Madrid, close to the Prada Museum and the other two wonderful galleries.

It was within easy walking distance to the Pueto del Sol and the Plaza Mayor. We do not mind walking and use our legs a lot when away.

We used the Metro and it was easy. We also did the hop on, hop off bus one day just for fun just to see if we had missed anything.

There is great shopping in Madrid especially for leather, shoes and bags.

Jennie

[aclay]

[quote name='Globaliser']OK - I think I'm understanding the problem, although I don't know the details of this as I've never tried to get an AAdvantage award so far.

If there is somewhere that you would absolutely love to do, but are caught out by this rule (and by the higher oneworld award price), don't forget that many places are easy and cheap to fly to from London. So even if the AA award only goes as far as London (or you have to nominate that as one of your two European stops), you should be able to buy a fairly cheap add-on ticket from London to your desired other European destination. And ironically, a good place to get those tickets is aa.com.[/QUOTE]


Just to add to Globaliser that there are a lot of VERY cheap airlines in Europe which make travelling from one country to another very inexpensive- especially if you want to fly one way, here are a couple of links to explore.
[url]www.easyjet.com[/url], [url]www.mytravellite.com[/url], [url]www.ryanair.com[/url]

My record was Southampton to Geneva for approximately USD 15 per person including taxes. I also have Swiss and BA miles, but it's hardly worth using them for Euro short haul for the price these cheap airlines are offering

cheers

Alex

[babylene]

We spent 5 nights at the Palace in Madrid a few years ago. Believe me, it wasn't enough! The hotel is gorgeous. It had been newly renovated and the rooms were very comfortable. Great location.
We spent almost an entire day at the Prado. If you like art, you must not miss Picasso's "Guernica" at the Reina Sofia museum. We didn't have time for the Thiessen museum, regretably.
You MUST,MUST spend a day in Toledo. We didn't have time for any other day trips.
Just walking around the old part of the city is great.
There's the AVE train (fast) that goes to Cordoba and Sevilla. (about 4 hrs to Sevilla, Cordoba is closer...you may do that one day)
I didn't find shopping so great in Spain...but leather purses are much cheaper than in Italy (or briefcase, if you need one!!!). Of course, there are Mallorca pearls and Lladros.

Hope this helps.

[packerpatriot]

Whatever you do don't waste your time in Frankfurt! Unless you have business or relatives there no reason to go.....boring, boring, boring! However most everywhere else in Germany is GREAT!
Cristin

[Aussie Gal]

Babylene,

You missed the best museum of all - the Thiessen. The paintings were wonderful. There is a lot to see in around Madrid and we were busy the whole time. We found some good buys at their major department store - Cortes Ingles.

I would also recommend if you have time to go to (Holy) Toledo as it is not far away and is a wonderful city to visit. Also Seville and Cordoba are other great places to see.

Jennie

[babylene]

I'll just have to go back to Madrid! It appears that you have travelled in Europe, both on land and by ship. We are booked for our first European cruise...the Northern itinerary...mainly to see the fjords. My question is...have you enjoyed your cruises as much as your land trips?(or more? or less?) We have always liked to "park" ourselves at a hotel for at least 5 nights and explore the area. On the cruise...well, I don't have to tell you....it will be a fast look! This will be a new experience for us.

[Bruin Steve]

babylene,
As I'm sure many others on here as well have done, I've done several trips to Europe...This one will be my third European cruise (the first two being a Baltic/Russia in 2001 and the Mediterranean on the Millie last summer)...
But, I've also done:
An entire summer in Europe (Belgium, Luxembourg, England, France, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Netherlands, Germany) in 1975 as a student--travelling by Eurailpass...
A three week Honeymoon in 1981 to Israel, Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and Germany...
An 18 day trip to France, Belgium, Spain and Italy (but mostly France) in December 1993...
A post cruise 8 days in Britain in 2001...

I've stayed in a few places for several days on some land trips, but generally have moved from city to city...

So, maybe I'm qualified to answer your question as well...

The answer is that I have enjoyed BOTH types of trips...
Quite simply put, there are some parts of Europe that just do not lend themselves to touring by cruise ship...and other parts that work perfectly by cruise ship...
Getting to more than one or two islands in Greece on a non-cruise vacation can be a logistical nightmare...In 1981, we had to take an overnight bus to a ferry to get from Athens to Corfu...and then a Yugoslavian freighter overnight to get from Corfu over to Bari, Italy...We may have spent as much time waiting around at bus stations and ship terminals and riding on buses, ships and ferries as we did enjoying Corfu...Seeing Corfu by cruise ship was SO MUCH easier...and the single day was plenty...especially when you're well rested and comfortable...

Likewise, the Baltic works well by Cruise ship...Without the ship, in order to get around between Oslo, Helsinki, Tallinn, St. Petersburg, Copenhagen and Stockholm would require long distances by ferry, dealing with ferry schedules and other logistics, etc. Sure you could fly to ONLY Oslo or ONLY Helsinki and hang around for five days or more...but, frankly, you'd tire of some of those places in five + days...One or Two days may be short in some cities like St. Petersburg or Copenhagen--and you could always go back and do a longer stay (We did a multi-day pre-cruise in Copenhagen)...but, for seeing the whole region and getting a nice sampling, the cruise works great...

Same with the Mediterranean...Rome, Venice, Barcelona deserve more time...but, the trick is to schedule some pre- and post-cruise time...With the Millie going out of Venice and ending in Barcelona, we were able to do a longer stay in both cities...Had we not spent so much time in Rome in the past, we could have also flown into Rome and spent a few days there before catching the ship in Venice if we had wanted...

But, for Corfu and Santorini and Dubrovnik, etc., the day in port was a nice amount of time...

My other thought is that, with the cruise, you're getting the maximum value out of your vacation...On land trips, I've always spent a decent portion of my days on logistics (driving--or taking and waiting for trains--checking in and out of hotels, finding our way to the hotel, etc.)...On a cruise, virtually every day is a full day of touring and sightseeing (save those much needed at-sea days)...If you like just going to one city and using it as a base, then a cruise ship gives you some of those same comforts...except you have a moving base...

All that said, there are a lot of places in Europe one shouldn't miss that you can't get to by Cruise ship...The Swiss Alps and the Austrian Tyrol...Bavaria and the Romantischestrasse in Germany, the chateaux country of the Loire Valley in France...and so on...Some cities that are offered on tours by the ships are really too far from port to be reasonably seen during a cruise...like Paris and Berlin and Moscow...If you want to see those, don't bother schlepping in from Le Havre or Rostock or St. Petersburg (It still amazes me that anyone signs up for the shore excursions to Moscow from St. Petersburg--There is SO MUCH to see and do in St. Petersburg and so little time...Why waste all of that time to get back and forth to Moscow?--It's like taking a cruise that stops in Los Angeles and signing up for a shore excursion to Chicago!)...

Bottom line, any trip to Europe is tops in my book--both cruises and land trips--they're just different...

You will certainly enjoy the cruise...

[Tatka]

[quote name='Bruin Steve']babylene,
(It still amazes me that anyone signs up for the shore excursions to Moscow from St. Petersburg--There is SO MUCH to see and do in St. Petersburg and so little time...Why waste all of that time to get back and forth to Moscow?--It's like taking a cruise that stops in Los Angeles and signing up for a shore excursion to Chicago!)....[/QUOTE]
It amazes me too! There are much more to see in St.Petersburg than in Moscow!

I spend 2 vacation ( 1 month and 1 week) in St. Peter (then Leningrad , and had 1 or 2 tours every day!!!) . Hermitage itself deserves 3 - 4 visits!

I visited Moscow 9 or 10 times ( from 1 day to 6 days at a time) and apart from city tour, Kremlin tour (limited of course), Tretyakov gallery there is not much to do for non-russian speaking person.

For me (being a Russian native) another reason to visit Moscow was great theaters.

[babylene]

Do you remember the game we (at least in MY day!!) played. One said something to the other and passes it along...and did the story change! Well, we each are adding something and the original question is long gone!!!!

Steve, you presented a very good argument (my husband does the same as you for a living!!!).I can see that you,like so many others (me,too????) are hooked on cruising. But I can't forget how much we enjoy staying put and soaking up the local atmosphere.

I think your logistics wins out for the fjords. I can't see us shlepping all over Norway with luggage. As for Ireland and Scotland....I hear it's gorgeous, but it really has never been on my "to do" list. My brother spent time there a few years ago and then asked me why I never went. I guess coming from the cold, I always leaned toward the Med. I took some travel books out of the library and I am doing my research.

But first...do I take advantage of the Celebrity air/transfers and arrive the day of the cruise. Some people have mentioned missing the boat. I would have a fit (not to mention a divorce!). I will wait to see if there will be a seat sale and then decide.
Next...Sunday in Le Havre....I must be sure that there will be public transportation. We really want to do our own thing...ideally, morning in Honfleur and afternoon at the beach in Deauville avec toute Paris! Most important...hope we don't get RAIN.

Tatka....I spent Pesach in the USSR many years ago. We snuck in Matzo (or meds and used clothes....don't ask...to bring to the Moscow synagogue. I was so scared at the customs. Luckily, another passenger had a bottle of liquer which fell and made a mess...so we were ignored! We spent half the time in Leningrad and the other in Moscow. I found it VERY DEPRESSING and have absolutely no interest in returning. The Hermitage was beautiful ,the Faberge Eggs and coaches in Moscow and the Bolshoi Ballet were worth seeing....but that was it. I flew home on KLM and when I walked into that plane I wanted to kiss the ground (well, floor). Whew...what a relief to be back in civilization.

[Bruin Steve]

[quote name='babylene']...do I take advantage of the Celebrity air/transfers and arrive the day of the cruise...[/QUOTE]

Here's ONE of my nightmares: On my parents' just completed Baltic cruise on the Constellation, we had them booked to fly into London one day early and stay at the Hilton through Celebrity with the transfer to the ship...They had planned to spend that one day--Friday--with my mother's cousin and her family in London with a big Shabbos dinner...BUT...their flight out of Los Angeles was delayed and they missed the connecting flight in Chicago...the airline didn't have another flight until the next morning--and that was completely booked...with the evening flight the next day, they would have missed the ship...AA finally squeezed them onto the morning departure, but they suddenly had to find a hotel for the night in Chicago and get back and forth Airport to Hotel...and the airline was of little help...They had to call the family in London and scratch all the plans...and, after an unscheduled night in Chicago, they got to the Hilton in London after midnight...and, deep sigh, at least were there for the morning transfer to the ship in Dover...

If we hadn't scheduled them that one extra night in London...and the cushion that comes with it, they would have missed the ship...

Add in the need to overcome jet lag and that's why I NEVER fly in same day for a European cruise...I don't want the stress that comes with all the possibilities that something like that goes wrong...

For the Baltic in 2001, we used frequent flyer miles and a taxi to the ship (but that was out of Copenhagen...London to Dover is a much longer ride)...We booked our own hotel to save money and spent a few days pre-cruise...

For the Med last August, we did EVERYTHING through Celebrity--Air, transfers and hotel...but still did a 2 night hotel package...and had a great time in Venice...

For this one, we're doing frequent flyer miles again...but, we plan on getting to Europe several days early (hence the original purpose of this thread)...but we're going to get to London at least ONE DAY ahead of the cruise...and we'll use Celebrity's hotel deal...and, with it, their transfers...Based on THIS year's prices, the Hilton with transfers for one night was $212 per person...The transfers without the hotel were $67 per person each way...In other words, the hotel part is really $290 per night double occupancy...I can do a little better on my own, but I've decided not to mess with it...

Bottom line, the best thing to do ALWAYS is to fly in early--it gives you a chance to see the city from which you are departing, it lets you adjust to the time change...and, most of all, it relieves stress and allows some cushion for those little things that can and will go wrong...