No More Discounts On Cruises!!!!!!!

[Guest nhrich]

It seems that we have two different versions of the policy quoted above.

 

cjb_nc states that no company shall SELL at a price pont below that stated by RCI.

 

nomore states that no agency shall ADVERTISE below the RCI price point.

 

So until we know which version is the correct one there is no way to know what the future holds. What I do know is that RCI may be giving me more of a reason to try Princess for my next cruise.

I think that cjb_nc was quoting from an e-mail received from his/her agency. RCI's communication to agents is in agreement with what nomore posted.

 

This policy does not apply to group bookings? My father was recently able to make a relatively late booking on what was a sold out cruise by going with an online agency which held a group booking. This price was considerably less than what RCI would have charged at this late date, but because this group booking was made last year, the agency passes on that savings. Would an agency still be able to advertise such a pricing, because it's based on a group booking? When I spoke with someone to confirm his booking at RCI and make sure it was on the up and up, I was told this is a common practice for travel agents to sell from their pool of group bookings.

Maria65, this should not apply to group bookings (unless the agent is discounting the group rate), since the rate is an "RCI approved" rate.

 

Rich

Carefree Vacations

[bUU]

It seems that we have two different versions of the policy quoted above.

To be precise, we have the Policy as expressed by RCI, who made and shall enforce the policy, and we have a restatement of the policy by some agents. Anyone who played the game Telephone as a child understand what happens when someone communicates what someone else says, using words other than those in the original communication. In this case, the game resulted in someone reading the word "advertise" and decided that it mean "sell" or "offer." There is no reason to believe that. RCI and Carnival both indicated that it was the advertising of prices is what their policy is about, so that's what their policy is about.

[bUU]

Isn't it interesting that these two companies, fierce competitors in every way, are in agreement (collusion) on this?

An assertion of "collusion" is a very serious accusation, and without evidence, potentially liable.

 

It is very very very common practice in industry to float a trial balloon with respect to pricing, and wait and see if competitors will follow-suit or not. Time-after-time airlines individually decide to raise their fares, and announce fare hikes, and then hope that other airline will raise their fares to match, because otherwise the original airline will be forced to lower the fares back to compete. Very very very few airfare hikes between major markets ever happen any other way.

[Ocean Boy]

Bicker, I know what you are saying. I simply have seen no written policy from anyone, RCI or otherwise, so I don't have the info to form a decision.

 

I do know this. The policy is going to create more work and consumption of time on both the agents and the consumers. What a waist having to spend time on the phone when the info was available so much faster on the internet. For those of us who don't really need to have our hands held it is an imposition. I call an agent and give them the ship, date of sailing, and cabin number that I want. They give me a price and book the cruise for me. It is quick and painless. I use minimal agency resourses. I think people like that should be able to get a better deal then someone who needs a lot of agency resource time.

 

For those of us who have been around we already know where the best prices live. More and more, I think the new board policies about TAs have a relationship to this new event.

[mafig]

An assertion of "collusion" is a very serious accusation, and without evidence, potentially liable.

 

It is very very very common practice in industry to float a trial balloon with respect to pricing, and wait and see if competitors will follow-suit or not. Time-after-time airlines individually decide to raise their fares, and announce fare hikes, and then hope that other airline will raise their fares to match, because otherwise the original airline will be forced to lower the fares back to compete. Very very very few airfare hikes between major markets ever happen any otherw ay.

 

Bicker,\

 

What are you saying. Are you saying that I, as a poster on this board, cannot say that this smacks of collusion?

 

Oops, I said it again.:)

[vossjemi]

I read about the value added dollars thing on my online email only TA website. What exactly does this mean? They still have to charge you what RC would charge you, but give you onboard credit to discount the overall price to you?

[triathlete]

OK, folks, here's the real story:

 

1. The cruise lines cannot legally tell agents what to charge--this is price fixing, and is a violation of anti-trust laws.

 

2. Cruise lines CAN tell agents what they can or cannot ADVERTISE in public forums.

 

3. The lines CANNOT tell agents what they can or cannot say in a PRIVATE forums.

 

4. Most of what's going on is just sabre rattling on the part of the cruise lines, and yes, some agencies appear to be over-reacting.

 

5. However, When the smoke clears, you'll find that the discount agencies are continuing to discount--you just need to contact them directly for a price quote instead of finding discounted prices on their web sites. Sites like *****.com (where you can get multiple price quotes for a single request) will continue to flourish, as these types of sites also involve private communication between an agency and a consumer.

 

Cheers!

[tasbm1]

The key word is "advertise"! My TA thinks that it might help the little agencies to compete with the large discount agencies. She can't afford the high priced advertising that they can and now the large ones will not be able to advertise the discount price. She gets me the same deals that I can get from the internet discount TA's, but I get more personal service. The only problem I will have is knowing what a cruise is going for on the discount side, but she has done well by me in the past so I am just going to trust her.

Terri

[xpcdoojk]

OK, folks, here's the real story:

 

1. The cruise lines cannot legally tell agents what to charge--this is price fixing, and is a violation of anti-trust laws.

 

2. Cruise lines CAN tell agents what they can or cannot ADVERTISE in public forums.

 

3. The lines CANNOT tell agents what they can or cannot say in a PRIVATE forums.

 

4. Most of what's going on is just sabre rattling on the part of the cruise lines, and yes, some agencies appear to be over-reacting.

 

5. However, When the smoke clears, you'll find that the discount agencies are continuing to discount--you just need to contact them directly for a price quote instead of finding discounted prices on their web sites. Sites like *****.com (where you can get multiple price quotes for a single request) will continue to flourish, as these types of sites also involve private communication between an agency and a consumer.

 

Cheers!

I would say that is the most accurate and definitive description of what is happening that I have read in this thread. It is, as stated here to be, as illegal as heck to fix prices. I am dissappointed Bicker that you didn't bring that up.:D

 

I am not a travel agent, nor do I desire to be, but some of them sound like chicken little.

 

It may become a little harder to get quick and dirty pricing, but how many of us booked a cabin based on a price they saw on a website or from an email. Most of us contact a TA or multiple and get a quote. At the very least we book with our TA and compare it to the cruiselines website to make sure we are getting some sort of discount. If you aren't at least doing the above, you really ought to consider getting multiple quotes from multiple TAs for the exact cabin and cruise you want. I will probably be off the TA xmas list for stating this. :eek:

 

jc

[Erie Dave]

Actually, it is not illegal to require that a supplier require that a product be sold for suggested retail by all of their vendors. Have you ever bought Denon stereo equipment? It is illegal for different companies to get together and share pricing policies. ie Carnival charging the same as RCI for the same trips---that is illegal.

The point again is, this new policy is about the advertising of cruise prices, not the selling of them. I think a lot of people are worried about something that isn't accurate.

[bUU]

What are you saying. Are you saying that I, as a poster on this board, cannot say that this smacks of collusion?

I'm saying you cannot say so without someone saying that it is a very serious accusation, and without evidence, potentially libel.

[bUU]

I would say that is the most accurate and definitive description of what is happening that I have read in this thread. It is, as stated here to be, as illegal as heck to fix prices. I am dissappointed Bicker that you didn't bring that up.:D

Why would I bring up something irrelevant?

[tinkerme1]

From Cruise News Daily Headlines - August 10

 

* Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, and Carnival Cruise Lines

each announced last week that their travel agents will no

longer be allowed to advertise rates below the line's

approved prices. Many agents have groups booked at lower

rates or rebate part of their commission to undercut the

standard pricing by the lines, and have routinely

advertised their lower prices. The prohibition also

applies to internet advertising and the agents' booking

engines which display prices on the web. Royal Caribbean

and Celebrity's new rules become effective next week,

while Carnival's prohibition begins January 1. The Cruise

News Daily article detailed the new rules and explained

some of the reasoning behind the decisions.

It should be noted that the new rules do not say the

agents cannot discount their prices. They now just can't

advertise the discounted rates; customers must contact

the agent to obtain any lower price the agent may offer.

 

I think it is clear that this pertains to "advertising" and does not pertain to price discounting by TA's. I think we should all take a step back and wait to see how this shakes out in the industry.

 

IMHO, I think this is to prevent the "Ebay" advertised cruises which often do not explain all the costs associated with a cruise, and then folks get mad because they buy something they thought was a "bargain". How many times have you, the experienced cruiser seen "lost leader" ads, only to find out the cruise is really not the price you saw advertised. This is a good step on the part of RCCL and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. :o

[Ocean Boy]

And one more point I have to make on this subject even if this does turn out to just be an advertising issue. In the past when I have had cruises booked I have checked my TAs site several times a day for pricing changes. I have caught lower fares that were available for just a few hours due to my checking and have received the lower pricing. It is pretty much impossible to do this if you have to call and talk to a TA several times a day. What are you supposed to say...."oh, just checking in to see what the fare is" five times a day?

 

No matter what, this policy makes it much more difficult to get the best deal and the consumer looses in the long run.

[triathlete]

Sorry Erie Dave, that's not correct. A producer can suggest a retail price, but can't force distributors to honor it. (Not something I would have known, but I just happened to have a conversation with a lawyer specializing in anti-trust specialist related to a similar topic--a beer distributor, it turns out, but the issues were identical...)

 

As to the issue of collusion issue, why would Carnival to make a public announcement about what is purely an internal matter between Carnival and its distributors? An announcement, I might add, that doesn't exactly excite my desire to buy a Carnival Cruise--unless the public wasn't the target. Why did RCL's announcement come out--also in a public forum--immediately following?

 

No, nothing suspicious at all about companies controlling most of the cruise market just happening to do the same strange thing at the same time...

[raydon]

Deal with agencies who have booked space early. Recently a friend wanted a 7 ngt cruise on Golden Princess in a balcony. Most agencies and Princess either showed them sold out or at a ridiculous price for 10/31. We tried a couple of the large onlines and were able to get a minisuite for less than 1000.00....so it still pays to shop and you can still expect decent pricing but probably not last minute! This was obviously group space because there was a shipboard credit with it as well.

[smeyer418]

Actually, it is not illegal to require that a supplier require that a product be sold for suggested retail by all of their vendors. Have you ever bought Denon stereo equipment? It is illegal for different companies to get together and share pricing policies. ie Carnival charging the same as RCI for the same trips---that is illegal. .

 

 

This is very much illegal. Fair trade laws that allowed manufacturers to set retail prices were declared illegal in the 1960's(remember a company called Masters they broke these rules). MSP are a suggestion and rarely do you have to pay that there are some exceptions. Boze for the most part owns own stores and can set the prices since there is no other party involved(in the leagl sense). But once you sell to a distributor that distributor can set its own price. some companies do try to get rid of discounters but normally use an excuse ie poor service. It is also illegal for two companies to agree on prices or an increase, for the same service like the cruise lines.

[bUU]

If they are indeed interested in complying with the law, then they had better be public in their dealings.

 

Why are you so supicious? I find it very disturbing to see accusations alluded to without any foundation whatsoever.

[smeyer418]

OK, folks, here's the real story:

 

1. The cruise lines cannot legally tell agents what to charge--this is price fixing, and is a violation of anti-trust laws.

 

2. Cruise lines CAN tell agents what they can or cannot ADVERTISE in public forums.

 

3. The lines CANNOT tell agents what they can or cannot say in a PRIVATE forums.

 

4. Most of what's going on is just sabre rattling on the part of the cruise lines, and yes, some agencies appear to be over-reacting.

 

5. However, When the smoke clears, you'll find that the discount agencies are continuing to discount--you just need to contact them directly for a price quote instead of finding discounted prices on their web sites. Sites like *****.com (where you can get multiple price quotes for a single request) will continue to flourish, as these types of sites also involve private communication between an agency and a consumer.

 

Cheers!

 

 

I know someone else agreed with you but some of this is just not accurate.

1. A principal can tell an agent what price they can sell at and they can tell them(except where state laws prohibut this) that they can't rebate commissions. The exception to this is when a TA buys a block of rooms to resell then they CAN'T tell them what price to resell them at(just as amanufacturer can't tell a distributor what price they can sell). But no one says that they have to sell blocks of rooms

 

2.3 If you can tell them what price to sell you can tell them what they can advertise and you can tell them they can't discount. You can limit what they say(there is no freedom of speech here it not GOVERNMENT telling them they can't speak. The first amendment only applies to governmental action. Your employer(with some limitations) can control your speech when you are working).,

 

4. I agree with you. I think there is some attempt to see how far they can push the TA's

 

5. While they say you can't advertise they say nothing about sending emails. So you send a request and they email you your special price.....Anyone want to set up a company with me to do that - this email is copyright 2004 SLM

[smeyer418]

One more point in the distributor case the distributor buys the goods and distributes them and owns the goods so they are independent and have the right to sell at any price(also you should know there is a big issue among distributors where another distributor sells in an area that someone has an exclusive) but in the case of a TA there are merely selling the service that the cruise line will deliver. There is no risk to them on lossing anything but the commission. They are in fact called travel agents... so you can see the principal agent issue is well known to the cruiselines. When they buy a block of rooms and sell them that is much more like the distributor because the risk of loss(not selling the rooms) falls on the agent unless the cruise line agrees to buy them back of course.

[Erie Dave]

If it is in the franchise agreement that you are not allowed to discount a product, than you cannot. Denon is not discounted. Saturn vehicles are not discounted, there are many products that are not discounted by original franchise agreements. It is perfectly legal. Those of you who say it is illegal are mistaken and miss-informed. Again, I think some of you are confusing what a company can do with its own products vs. what competitors can do with pricing. Competitors having the same price is price fixing. A company setting the price for its own product if perfectly legal if it is that way from the inception.

[smeyer418]

Sorry with respect I disagree, unless the "franchise" is owned by the original one and the rest just employees of the main one like Bose they can't insist on one price. You see it on ads when MacDonalds says 99 cents menu or such that each store independently owned and can set there own price. The franchisor can set standards and terminate people for cleaniness and no following other rules like buying napkins from it but if they terminated beacuse they didn't follow the price rules- good lawsuit. Whenever there is a termination of a franchise this becomes an issue...I am not sure if Saturn owns all the dealerships but they may in fact do that to make sure no discounts as they advertise...

PS Hi Erie LTN talk remember my wife is from Fredonia :)

[Erie Dave]

Saturn was created by GM in order to creat a new franchise. In this new franchise agreement, the vehicles are all sold for msrp. You cannot alter an existing sales agreement, you have to state this from the inception of the product line, hence the creation of Saturn.

As relates to this topic, however, I doubt that the original agreements that agencies signed to represent the cruise lines included the inability to discount the products they sell....and therefore, they will never be able to make the TA's sell cruises for full retail. They do, however, have the right to control how they market and advertise their products, and that what the press release was about.

[smeyer418]

hello again

 

here from the saturn website

http://www.saturn.com/aboutus2/student/pdf/Full_Student_Packet.pdf

 

look at page 162 they say they don't control the prices. I don't make this stuff up. I am sure the TA agreement says something along the lines that the TA will follow the rules and reg the cruise lines set up from time to time which the cruise lines are free to change with or without notice. Any one have access to a cruise line TA agreement?

 

 

here from the McDonalds website

Prices & participation may vary. ©2002 McDonald’s Corporation, Oak Brook, IL 60523

[brn2crz]

Sorry with respect I disagree, unless the "franchise" is owned by the original one and the rest just employees of the main one like Bose they can't insist on one price. You see it on ads when MacDonalds says 99 cents menu or such that each store independently owned and can set there own price. The franchisor can set standards and terminate people for cleaniness and no following other rules like buying napkins from it but if they terminated beacuse they didn't follow the price rules- good lawsuit. Whenever there is a termination of a franchise this becomes an issue...I am not sure if Saturn owns all the dealerships but they may in fact do that to make sure no discounts as they advertise...

PS Hi Erie LTN talk remember my wife is from Fredonia :)

Actually,McDonald's can not price point below what their region is advertising.