Royal Caribbean And Discrimination towards

[madforcruising]

From the ADA (ada.gov) regarding public accomodations:

 

9.1.4 Classes of Sleeping Accommodations.

(1) In order to provide persons with disabilities a range of options equivalent to those available to other persons served by the facility, sleeping rooms and suites required to be accessible by 9.1.2 shall be dispersed among the various classes of sleeping accommodations available to patrons of the place of transient lodging. Factors to be considered include room size, cost, amenities provided, and the number of beds provided.

---

The term "rolling stock or other conveyances'' was not included in the definition of facility in the proposed rule. However, commenters raised questions about the applicability of this part to places of public accommodation operated in mobile facilities (such as cruise ships, floating restaurants, or mobile health units). Those places of public accommodation are covered under this part, and would be included in the definition of "facility.'' Thus the requirements of subparts B and C would apply to those places of public accommodation. For example, a covered entity could not discriminate on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the facilities (Sec.36.201). Similarly, a cruise line could not apply eligibility criteria to potential passengers in a manner that would screen out individuals with disabilities, unless the criteria are "necessary,'' as provided in Sec.36.301.

 

I am going to call the ADA information line on Tuesday to make sure I understand this correctly, but it looks like the OP may have a legitimate complaint.

 

 

First of all you might need to find out if a non US company operating non US registered ships in international waters are required to follow this at all.

[ollienbertsmum]

Ouch!:( This was a little too harsh IMMHO.

 

I agree. Reality often does hurt.

 

The truth is also that having a disability means you do have to fight for everything and your choices are much more limited than for the non-disabled. However if all the cabin choices were made accessible, the ships would accomodate far fewer passengers and we would all (disabled and non disabled people) be paying much more for our vacations.

 

I hope that the OP gets good help from RCL because we all enjoy spending quality time with our family.

[madforcruising]

... What about the fact that getting an accessible JS that sleeps four only adds 1 square foot? That seems to be the issue here, and I wonder why this has to add so much to the price. It's 1 square foot!

 

It´s not 1 square foot that adds to the price it´s a completely different cabin category that comes with different amenities as well.

So your take on this is that a HC balcony room is almost the same size as HC JS but you forget that the extra space in the HC balcony room is given for free to accomodate wheelchairs. Don´t get me wrong, it´s OK the balcony room is that much larger, but you can´t expect that a HC JS is again so many % larger than other JS just because it´s HC.

If i.e. a regular JS is large enough already to accomodate as a HC size wise with just alternations in set up why should it be required to be bigger? Just because smaller room categories have to be bigger to accomodate? I dont think so.

 

 

 

I just felt most of the response were somewhat cold and people did not seem to be looking at how the OP felt. A few were downright mean as well.

 

Well you probably think I´m cold too and don´t look at how the OP feels, however I see the OP is upset and screams discrimination where I can´t see any kind of discrimination at all.

 

If disagreeing with the OP equals being mean, well then yes, some are mean here, otherwise the majority of posts do not look mean in any way to me. And as previously posted it amazes me that the OP did not come back to this thread and defend her statement. It more looks like "I didn´t get the support I hoped for and didn´t get the answers / posts I wanted so I´m not going to play anymore"

 

Sometimes life is tough and I don´t always get what I want and often enough when I´m ready to book all cabins are gone or I have to go with a room I didn´t want in first place.

Get real it´s called life !!!

[alcheme]

I'm sorry but I think she has a point with all this. If I was disabled (which I'm not) and I wanted to make reservations for four in a hotel, and they could only accomodate me in a suite that is 30-50% more in price when I know that the basic 4 person rooms are cheaper even if they couldnt accomodate, I would question discrimination as well. This has ADA all over it.

 

Well, the OP didn't exacty say that they could ONLY accommodate her in a suite. That was the only thing they had available with a balcony. They also have a few accessible interior cabins that sleep four. If one of those were available, I'm sure it would be at a much lower price. As I said in another post, just needing a cabin that sleeps four limits you a good bit on the cruise ships. I'm not always able to find the cabin type I want available on the ship and sailing date I prefer, either. It's not surprising that needing HC accessibility AND sleeping room for four limits you even more.

[kel3120]

Do you honestly think that RCI's attorneys have left loopholes in RCI's policies and procedures that would expose them to potential litigation in what can be a hotly contested and litigious area????

 

Give me a break.

 

Go ahead and call them...just be ready to be disappointed. You're not dealing with amateurs.:rolleyes:

 

I have never once attacked RC or have said that I think they are doing a bad job. It is okay to questions things, and to learn the facts for yourself. And I'm not going to "deal" with RC. I have no intention of calling them, suing, protesting against them, or anything like that if that's what you think. I work as a Rec Therapist, so it is important that I keep up on the ADA. If I ever had a client that would like to know more about the ADA regarding cruise ships, it would be great to have a little background. I would post info here if I found out anything that applied to this thread. I always advocate for people with disabilities, and that is all I am trying to do here.

 

I am really not liking the tone of this thread. There is a lot of attacking and nastiness. We can disagree, but can't we be a little nicer to each other??

[Amy from Delaware]

It´s not 1 square foot that adds to the price it´s a completely different cabin category that comes with different amenities as well

 

What extra amenities are there in the accessible JS? The only one I know of is that the balcony is a bit larger than with an accessible E2.

[madforcruising]

What extra amenities are there in the accessible JS? The only one I know of is that the balcony is a bit larger than with an accessible E2.

 

 

:confused: :confused: The same as in a regular JS vs a regular E2:rolleyes:

[Amy from Delaware]

:confused: :confused: The same as in a regular JS vs a regular E2:rolleyes:

 

Why are you rollling your eyes at me? You made a statement and I'd like you to back it up.

 

The regular JS has a bathtub. That's an amenity that the accessible JS does not have.

 

If you know of an amenity that the accessible JS has that is not in the accessible E2, please let me know what it is.

[madforcruising]

Why are you rollling your eyes at me? You made a statement and I'd like you to back it up.

 

The regular JS has a bathtub. That's an amenity that the accessible JS does not have.

 

If you know of an amenity that the accessible JS has that is not in the accessible E2, please let me know what it is.

 

 

Because you keep ignoring the fact that an E2 is three categories lower than a JS, be it HC or not doesn´t matter here and it does not need a rocket scientist to figure out there is differences between cabin categories.

 

JS do get upgraded bath amenities, robes and an additional cruise credit towards C&A. JS are usually on a higher deck or better location than E2 too.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

I am sorry but is not fair that I have to pay additional charges to sail with my family just because I use a wheelchair. My children will be 3 and 5 years old at the time of sailing. I highly doubt they should stay in a room by themseleves.

 

Thanks for your help

 

THIS IS AN INTERESTING THREAD. As someone who has done a graduate degree in Special Needs...I would like to comment:

You say that, "It is not fair that you have to pay additional charges..." I agree with you...it is not fair...but...what is fair??? Sometimes what we perceive to be fair is not necessarily fair to you. IMO...ROYAL CARIBBEAN INTERNATIONAL has done an exemplary job at accomodating the physically challenged / handicapped passengers. This has been done at a great cost to RCI. Does RCI have a right to make up that cost in other ways??? You bet they do. Unfortunately you are caught in the "Catch 22". I think the answer to this would be...Does RCI have a Handicap Accessible Junior Suite??? If so then that would be the answer to this dilemma. Because RCI does such a good job with accomodating the handicapped...I would say that using the term "discrimination" is inappropriate...and I say that with all due respect to you and your situation. The unfortunate truth is...that sometimes what is fair can cost you more.

[cruise182]

At the risk of being called names and the like....I must say I do not think RCL or any line should withhold HC cabins until a certain date, and then release them to the general public if they aren't booked. This will cost us more money if these cabins start sailing empty do to holding them back. Someone who is HC has to do the same thing that most of us do when booking...BOOK EARLY!! Many times I tried to book a specific category a year or so out and couldn’t get a room do to being booked.

That said, I think the cruise lines should not book the HC to able bodied people until every other cabin in the Cat are booked. Once the other cabins are booked, then that room is fair game to all!!! No matter how far out they are booked!!

[TRadle]

At the risk of being called names and the like....I must say I do not think RCL or any line should withhold HC cabins until a certain date, and then release them to the general public if they aren't booked. This will cost us more money if these cabins start sailing empty do to holding them back. Someone who is HC has to do the same thing that most of us do when booking...BOOK EARLY!! Many times I tried to book a specific category a year or so out and couldn’t get a room do to being booked.

 

That said, I think the cruise lines should not book the HC to able bodied people until every other cabin in the Cat are booked. Once the other cabins are booked, then that room is fair game to all!!! No matter how far out they are booked!!

 

I think that would be an excellent policy.

[FitzLA]

That's an interesting point. I don't know if there's a good reason they can't set up those accessible E2 cabins to sleep four. Another way of looking at it, though, is that those who book an accessible E2 cabin are actually getting a JS size stateroom for the price of an E2 (which is normally more like 173 sq. ft.).

 

Because E2 cabins only sleep 2 people MOST of the time. It is E1 cabins that sleep 3 or 4. D1 cabins sleep 4, and D2 cabins sleep 2.

[cruise182]

I think that would be an excellent policy.

:) Thanks!! But what do we know?? :)

[Merion_Mom]

Why are you rollling your eyes at me? You made a statement and I'd like you to back it up.

 

The regular JS has a bathtub. That's an amenity that the accessible JS does not have.

 

If you know of an amenity that the accessible JS has that is not in the accessible E2, please let me know what it is.

 

In addition to what Gunnar wrote, at most ports of departure, JS also get priority embarkation and disembarkation. :)

[Aquahound]

 

9.1.4 Classes of Sleeping Accommodations.

(1) In order to provide persons with disabilities a range of options equivalent to those available to other persons served by the facility, sleeping rooms and suites required to be accessible by 9.1.2 shall be dispersed among the various classes of sleeping accommodations available to patrons of the place of transient lodging. Factors to be considered include room size, cost, amenities provided, and the number of beds provided.

 

Ok. That's all fine and dandy. And RCI has specifically designed rooms with the HC in mind. They have done their part in making some rooms wheelchair friendly. But how are they responsible for providing a wheelchair accesible room with every multiple of family members accompanying in mind?

 

Remember, this is a ship. And ships only have so much room on them. If the cruise lines didn't make the ships WC accesible, there would be a valid argument here. But that's not the issue. The Op is complaining because 4 don't fit in the room. I'm sorry, but a certain degree of common sense has to be applied here.

[3213dev]

Heres a tip!

Go to Benidorm

plenty of acess there:)

[Amy from Delaware]

Because you keep ignoring the fact that an E2 is three categories lower than a JS, be it HC or not doesn´t matter here and it does not need a rocket scientist to figure out there is differences between cabin categories.

 

JS do get upgraded bath amenities, robes and an additional cruise credit towards C&A. JS are usually on a higher deck or better location than E2 too.

 

Wow, calm down please. I didn't ignore anything, I simply asked a question. Thank you for answering it. Thank you also to Merion_Mom for her response.

 

It's interesting that when I called RCCI to book our cruise, I asked if there were any other "better" accessible cabins. They told me about the JS. I asked the RCCI representative what was better about the JS besides the larger balcony. They told me "there's no other difference". I actually called three times and asked the question of three different RCCI sales reps.

 

I started a thread a while back on the "disabled cruise travel" board asking specifically what the benefits of the accessible JS were compared the the accessible E2. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=554880 Nobody gave me the answer you just did, madforcrusing. So maybe it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the answer, but I have asked the same question over and over, and so far you're the only one who's given me that info. Thanks again for your insight. It's just too bad you had to be rude about it.

[Obaybee..tryingthisagain]

THIS IS AN INTERESTING THREAD. As someone who has done a graduate degree in Special Needs...I would like to comment:

You say that, "It is not fair that you have to pay additional charges..." I agree with you...it is not fair...but...what is fair??? Sometimes what we perceive to be fair is not necessarily fair to you. IMO...ROYAL CARIBBEAN INTERNATIONAL has done an exemplary job at accomodating the physically challenged / handicapped passengers. This has been done at a great cost to RCI. Does RCI have a right to make up that cost in other ways??? You bet they do. Unfortunately you are caught in the "Catch 22". I think the answer to this would be...Does RCI have a Handicap Accessible Junior Suite??? If so then that would be the answer to this dilemma. Because RCI does such a good job with accomodating the handicapped...I would say that using the term "discrimination" is inappropriate...and I say that with all due respect to you and your situation. The unfortunate truth is...that sometimes what is fair can cost you more.

 

 

 

Very well put. I admire the way you were sensitive to the OP's needs yet you made it informative as well non-discriminatory or offensive in any way.

[Mac303]

The ADA and Cruise Ships:

Separating Fact From Fiction

 

On June 6, 2005 the US Supreme Court handed down a long awaited ruling regarding the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and cruise ships. In what’s considered a landmark civil rights decision on Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line, the High Court ruled that the ADA does indeed apply to foreign flagged cruise ships that call on US ports. That’s a fact. Unfortunately there was also a good deal of fiction reported in the media free-for-all that followed this much-publicized decision.

Although many media outlets refrained from speculation, some boldly announced that it “would cost the cruise industry billions of dollars in retrofits.” Others announced that “cruise lines would pull out of US ports.” I even read one prediction that the major cruise lines would base themselves in the Bahamas and fly passengers in from Florida. None of these reports were based on the facts of the decision.

The truth is, the decision stopped short of requiring across-the-board barrier removal on all ships. According to Justice Kennedy, structural changes will have to be readily achievable and cannot alter a ship’s design or threaten the safety of passengers or crew.

Thomas Goldstein, who argued the plaintiff’s case before the Supreme Court, agreed that large-scale physical changes and retrofitting will probably not be required, and the ruling will most likely only apply to straightforward structural changes such as grab bars and lower water fountains.

In the end, the specifics will be determined by the lower court, and in the absence of any ADA guidelines for passenger vessels, they will be decided on a case-by-case basis. The US Access Board, the entity charged with creating those ADA guidelines, held several public hearings this summer but has yet to issue those final regulations.

So how accessible are cruise ships today? Well according to Michael Crye, president of the International Council of Cruise Lines, “This industry is one of the most accessible industries for special needs passengers.” I wholeheartedly agree!

To be fair, the ships cited in this case are quite old; in fact, they are no longer part of the Norwegian Cruise Line (NCL) fleet. Today all the major cruise lines are building more accessible vessels. For example, the newly launched Pride of America features 22 wheelchair-accessible staterooms equipped with roll-in showers. NCL has also improved access ashore. As a result of their 2004 acquisition of Polynesian Adventure Tours, NCL can now provide accessible shore excursions in lift-equipped buses at many of their Hawaiian ports. That’s a huge access upgrade.

Of course access on the high seas is not limited to NCL ships. According to Royal Caribbean International (RCI) President, Adam Goldstein, “Royal Caribbean wants to be the preferred cruise line for people with disabilities.” The company cemented their commitment to access by selecting Jean Driscoll, a respected member of the disability community, to reign as Godmother of the Mariner of the Seas.

Like all of the RCI Voyager class ships, the Mariner of the Seas boasts a wide range of access features, including pool and Jacuzzi lifts, automatic doors and accessible cabins which feature 90-100 square feet of extra space.

Admittedly cruising can present some unique access challenges, such as tender access for wheelchair-users. In most cases wheelchair-users have to be carried aboard tenders. Still, a few cruise lines have voluntarily provided independent tender access for wheelchair-users. Holland America Line was the first cruise line to provide hydraulic tender lifts, which are now installed on nine of their ships.

Considering the current state of access, in the end this Supreme Court decision will probably have very little effect on the physical access of cruise ships. The increased publicity could however lead to an influx of disabled cruise passengers. As a result, even travel agents who don’t routinely book accessible travel may start to see an increase in their disabled clientele.

What do you do if that happens to you? First and foremost, ask a lot of questions about each client’s specific access needs and keep in mind that the newer ships offer the best wheelchair-access. Consult the special needs department of your preferred cruise line for ship access details. And finally, if you are just not comfortable dealing with this niche market, consider referring these clients to an accessible cruise specialist.

The bottom line is, with the aging population and the growing popularity of cruising, travel agents should expect to see more disabled clients. Now is a good time to figure out how you will handle that increase, before the first wheelchair-user rolls into your office.

Candy Harrington is the editor of Emerging Horizons and the author of Barrier Free Travel: A Nuts and Bolts Guide For Wheelers and Slow Walkers. Visit her blog at www.BarrierFreeTravels.com for access news, resources and industry updates.

 

SPECTOR V. NORWEGIAN CRUISE LINE LTD.

 

 

http://www.access-board.gov/pvaac/index.htm

[madforcruising]

Wow, calm down please. I didn't ignore anything, I simply asked a question. Thank you for answering it. Thank you also to Merion_Mom for her response.

 

It's interesting that when I called RCCI to book our cruise, I asked if there were any other "better" accessible cabins. They told me about the JS. I asked the RCCI representative what was better about the JS besides the larger balcony. They told me "there's no other difference". I actually called three times and asked the question of three different RCCI sales reps.

 

I started a thread a while back on the "disabled cruise travel" board asking specifically what the benefits of the accessible JS were compared the the accessible E2. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=554880 Nobody gave me the answer you just did, madforcrusing. So maybe it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the answer, but I have asked the same question over and over, and so far you're the only one who's given me that info. Thanks again for your insight. It's just too bad you had to be rude about it.

 

If you consider my answer as rude I apologize for it as it was not meant as that, though I have to admit that I felt you were messing around with me as to me it would have been obvious that a three category difference should reflect some difference and this is as mentioned before not specific to HC cabins but to regular cabins in first place.

[madforcruising]

At the risk of being called names and the like....I must say I do not think RCL or any line should withhold HC cabins until a certain date, and then release them to the general public if they aren't booked. This will cost us more money if these cabins start sailing empty do to holding them back. Someone who is HC has to do the same thing that most of us do when booking...BOOK EARLY!! Many times I tried to book a specific category a year or so out and couldn’t get a room do to being booked.

 

That said, I think the cruise lines should not book the HC to able bodied people until every other cabin in the Cat are booked. Once the other cabins are booked, then that room is fair game to all!!! No matter how far out they are booked!!

 

Well but I think they should at least be the very last cabins to be sold to non HC people. If all other cabins and I´m talking across the categories are booked, then I agree the HC cabins should be given to non HC folks if nobody who would need a HC cabin has grabed it by then.

But as long as there´s any regular cabin available and be it inside the HC JS shouldn´t be given away to someone not needing it until a certain blackout date.

[Merion_Mom]

It's just too bad you had to be rude about it.

Three Rings: He's not rude; he's German.

 

:D :D :D

 

Hi, Gunnar! ;)

[ranger-red]

I don't think anyone is trying to be mean or hurtful in their comments. I think that they are loyal to RCL and honestly believe in the way that they operate their company. What gets things riled up is the use of the word "discrimination". It is a card that is played way too often and people have had enough.

 

I think most of us can empathize with the OP for her dilema, but give RCL a break.

[Amy from Delaware]

If you consider my answer as rude I apologize for it as it was not meant as that, though I have to admit that I felt you were messing around with me as to me it would have been obvious that a three category difference should reflect some difference and this is as mentioned before not specific to HC cabins but to regular cabins in first place.

 

Thank you for your apology, which is accepted.

 

More research reveals the following (for one particular cruise, an 8-night on Explorer).

 

JS for 2 adults and 2 children, total cost is $3996.00

D1 Balcony Cabin for 2 adults and 2 children, total cost is $3196.

 

Difference of $800.

 

Now, here's my take on it. I think the OP was a bit confused. They said the price was being raised "by" $3500 instead of "to" $3500.

 

I could see a point of asking for the accessible JS for the cost of the D1, because it's basically equivalent to an "accessible balcony cabin that sleeps 4" (if there was such a thing). And I think possibly RCI would be willing to make that concession..ie, an $800 "break" in price.

 

I can also see the point of RCI saying "no" because the poster would be getting the benefits of a JS.

 

It's a judgement call. But either way, the difference (at the moment, on this one particular cruise) would be $800.