Problem with Deposit

[Svenja66]

Hello, after I have posted my Problem with a TA and HAL at another place at the forum some people told me it could be better to post it at the HAL board. There may be people which know HAL little better to help me.

Thanks Svenja

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=553818

[Jade13]

May 13th, 2007, 05:03 PM

Svenja66

Cool Cruiser Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 12

 

Travelagency and HAL doesnt pay my Deposit back

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hello, I m from Germany and I have a very big problem with HAL. I wanted to book a cruise with them but it was not sure if we could get a flight, because it was 3 weeks before depature. So the Travel-agency (in USA) told me that the best thing I can do is to do a reservation for 48 hours to find out if we will get flights. For this reservation they told me, that I do need a Deposit, which will payed back 100 % if we will not take the cruise. So I payed the Deposit. Because we didnt find flights I told the Travelagency that we will not do the cruise. But our Deposit was never payed back. HAL now wrote us, that the cancellation of the room was made just 3 days !!! befor Departure and thats why they didnt pay the Deposit back.

So I think the Travelagency forgot to cancel the reservation.

What can I do to get my money back? Does somebody has any ideas? Its a lot of money.

Sorry for the bad english. And thanks for help.

Svenja"

Something does not sound right. TA's can hold a reservation (actually hold a cabin) for 48 hours or so (while you confirm flights) but then why did you give them your credit card? HAL only accepts full payment three weeks in advance, so are you saying the entire cruise fare has been charged to your credit card? If only partial payment was charged, than HAL should know that somethng is wrong.

 

We assume you have e-mail correspondance showing that 1) cabin was supposed to be held for 48 hours, and 2) you told the agency that you were not going to move forward.

 

 

Write to:

 

Mr Stein Kruse

President

Holland America Line

300 Elliott Ave West

Seattle, Washington 98119

USA

 

You will get a letter from one of his special advisers.

 

The agency should not have needed your credit card if you only had them hold for 2 or 3 days while you looked for flights. Do you have the name of the agent and e-mail correspondance?

 

If you have paid in full (how much money are you disputing?), do you have a HAL booking number, as you would be able to look up your reservation on line.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Interesting - original letter was dated in May - it is now June. May be too late for anything.

[grannynurse]

I think the travel agency should straighten this out for you. Ask to speak to a supervisor or manager. If they did not follow policy and ask for a hold, and instead collected a deposit, and then did not cancel, the TRAVEL AGENCY owes you the money. I would hold them responsible.

GN

[Jade13]

Can you clarify how much the Agency said they needed as a "deposit" to hold the reservation? As stated, there would be no deposit required for a 48 hour "hold".

 

I think your ability to prove you were told it was a refundable hold will depend on what you have as far as e-mail correspondance that you can show HAL.

 

Perhaps if you can cut and paste your correspondance "(with of course deleting your name and agency name etc.) showing it was a refundable "hold" and you were clear you could not commit until you found out you could get airline reservations, we may be more help here. Hopefully if the agency lied to you and you have some proof, maybe HAL wil do a refund? In the US we are protected from Credit Card fraud, but you still have to prove the transaction was done without your approval.

 

Here it sounds like an agent lied to you (or could have meant to do a hold, but stuff happens if say that agent left the agency and someone else in the accounting department put through your charge.)

[hammybee]

I am thinking your issue is with the travel agency, not the cruise line. When we choose to use a travel agency, as most of us do, the agency becomes our agent, not that of the cruise line.

 

The big issue is if you paid or VISA bill for the deposit, or not. If not, dispute the charge. If so, why did you pay the bill, given you knew that you were not going to be on this cruise.

 

I agree with the others who said that it should not be necessary to make a deposit to hold a cabin, pending airline reservations.

 

There may be circumstances related to international bookings that we are not aware of, given most of us are in the U.S.

[Gerd]

Hallo Svenja,

 

because your mentioned English language problem, antworte ich Dir am Besten in Deutsch !

 

 

Auf Deine Anfrage vom 13. Mai unter „Cruise-Chat.com“ hatte ich bereits wie folgt beantwortet.

 

Leider hast Du da wohl nicht mehr hinein geschaut.....

 

 

 

Deine Anfrage läst ein paar Fragen offen, u.A. welches Schiff, Abfahrtstag und Abfahrthafen, und von welchem deutschen Flughafen Du los fliegen willst.

 

Eigentlich sollte es aber kein Problem geben, einen Flug in die Staaten zu bekommen. Da man dort immer noch Umsteigen kann. Dann hat man zwar eine Flugpassage mehr, aber man kommt auf sein Schiff.

 

 

Schaue mal unter....

 

http://www.lufthansa.com/online/portal/lh/de?ctest=101302771107

 

http://www.ebookers.de/

 

http://www.travelocity.com

 

http://www.expedia.de/

 

dort findest Du eigentlich immer was passendes.

 

 

Betreffend Deinem Hinweis über die deutschen Preise kann ich Dir nur Recht geben.

 

Außerdem ist mir nicht klar wieso Du / Deine US Agentur das Schiff fest gebucht hat, wenn Du noch keinen Flug hattest.

Alle meine unten aufgelisteten Holland America Line Kreuzfahrten habe ich via einer US-Agentur gebucht, hatte aber nie dieses Durcheinander, sondern immer nur korrekte, und sehr zufriedene Ergebnisse.

 

 

 

Sollte Dein US-Partner allerdings die Schiffspassage fest gebucht haben, dann kommst Du aus der Sache sehr schlecht wieder raus – und wenn Du keinen Flug findest, dann ist es sehr schwierig Dein Geld wieder zu bekommen.

 

 

 

Ich hoffe, ich konnte Dir helfen

 

 

 

Happy cruising

 

Gerd

 

 

 

 

Our marvelous cruises :

 

MS Ryndam – Wayfarer – March 1997

MS Noordam - Transatlantic Island Hook - April 2001

MS Volendam - Southern Caribbean - April 2002

MS Volendam - Westfarer Caribbean - April 2004

MS Prinsendam - Windmills & Waterford – September 2004

MS Westerdam - Western Caribbean - April 2005

MS Statendam - Hawaii Circle - September 2005

MS Rotterdam - Vikings and Czars – July 2006

MS Veendam - Southern Caribbean – March 2007

 

106 days - 29'479 Nm

 

 

Future Cruise :

 

[sail7seas]

I thought his English is fine. I had no problem understanding his situation but I cannot read your post, Gerd. I don't think many of us can.

 

Would you care to translate it for us? Thank you.

 

[WillieF]

Please - A translation would certainly be most helpful.

[DMRick]

I went here and translated..pretty much what everyone else was saying:

 

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[Gerd]

Dear HAL English speaking forum,

 

excuse me; I did not realize that you could also be interested. But because she talks about here-restricted English knowledge, I did answer to here in German.

 

 

 

Well, first I think like "Krazy-Kruizer" or "Jade13", that there is something strange.

 

Because Svenja started here very first thread already on May 13, 2007 :

 

http://cruise-chat.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2601000541/m/4331011113

 

Which I did already answered, but after my post – which is only number 3, she did not anymore show-up…..

 

 

And as she also mentioned, she meanwhile started one on May 13, 2007 on :

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=553818

 

 

 

Here very first post concerns emergency in order to recuperate here money, because she is 3 weeks ahead of the Cruise – so we talk about a cruise around late May / early June.

 

But if I look to her statement on this thread, I really do not understand here letterhead "Problem with Deposit". Because, we all know, that at this close to departure date, HAL, and nobody else ask for a deposit, but for full payment.

 

And if you do not have air-tickets, one really should not pay deposit / or full payment, but, as stated, one do only a 48 h hour reservation and book the cruise only after that. This is clearly known to all around this business, either for HAL or anny TA around the world…..

 

 

 

And because this forum asked for translation into English, well a bit of all this, I told to here in German.

 

 

 

Happy cruising

 

G E R D:o

[Jade13]

Dear HAL English speaking forum,

 

 

But if I look to her statement on this thread, I really do not understand here letterhead "Problem with Deposit". Because, we all know, that at this close to departure date, HAL, and nobody else ask for a deposit, but for full payment.

 

And if you do not have air-tickets, one really should not pay deposit / or full payment, but, as stated, one do only a 48 h hour reservation and book the cruise only after that. This is clearly known to all around this business, either for HAL or anny TA around the world…..

 

 

 

And because this forum asked for translation into English, well a bit of all this, I told to here in German.

 

 

 

Happy cruising

 

G E R D:o

 

Well, it sounds like she thought this was resolved but is still trying to get her deposit back. If she would post her Englsh correspondance (deleting the TA name, email address etc.) but showing the dates and specific cruise, we may be more help. It is possible that a TA asked for all the personal information, said they would hold for a couple of days - and then somewhere the cedit card charge went through...Where is the written correspondance saying "this is just a hold for 48 hold for 48 hours"

[Svenja66]

Hallo Gerd

 

ich hatte ja einen Brief an HAL geschrieben (so hatte man mir hier im Forum geraten) und irgendwie gehofft, daß ich Antwort bekomme. Das Reisebüro meldet sich überhaupt nicht mehr.

Um die vielen Fragen hier im forum beantworten zu können brauche ich oft Tage - auch mit Übersetzungsprogram.

Seit der Sache mit dem Deposit bin ich sowieso nur noch am PC. Meine Mutter hat das ganze bezahlt und fragt mich jeden Tag, ob HAL geantwortet hat. Eigentlich wollten wir jetzt für die Sommerferien endlich eine Reise buchen, aber solange das mit dem Geld nicht geklärt ist , möchte es meine Mutter nicht.

Zu Deinen Fragen:

 

Natürlich hast du recht, daß es immer Flüge in die USA gibt. Ich bin fast jedes Jahr dort und kenne die Buchungsseiten. Aber da es 2 Wochen vor Beginn der Reise war und die Reise losgehen sollte mitten in unseren deutschen Osterferien (1. April) waren die Preise sehr hoch. Ich hatte dem Reisebüro auch gesagt, daß ich sehen muß, daß ich einen bezahlbaren Flug bekommen muß. Das finde ich nicht verwerflich, soviel Geld haben wir nicht. 2 Wochen vorher hätte ich noch gut mit der Condor etwas bekommen können, aber das war dann nicht mehr frei. Wichtig war für mich, daß ich einen Direktflug ab Frankfurt bekommen wollte, da ich einen 2 Jährigen Sohn habe. Wer schon einmal mit einem 2 jährigen, einer 7 jährigen und seiner 70 jährigen Mutter geflogen ist, kann vielleicht verstehen, daß ein Direktflug dann das Beste ist. Da der Flug nach Florida sowieso schon lang ist und außerdem oft lange Wartezeiten bei den Ümsteigeplätzen sind. Ich habe dabei aber ganz Florida abgeklappert, denn ich wäre dann einfach mit dem Mietwagen bis zum Hafen gefahren. Etwas direktes nach Florida habe ich und auch das Reisebüro nach langem suchen nicht gefunden. Zumindest nichts bezahlbares.

 

Natürlich habe ich Unterlagen, von dem Reisebüro, wo auch draufsteht, daß ich 48 Stunden Zeit habe. Ich habe Tagelang versucht diese hier zu posten, aber es gelingt mir nicht. Ich habe sie als Kopie eines Faxes und das kriege ich hier einfach nicht rein.

 

Es ging im übrigen um die Westerdam 1. April. Den Namen vom Reisebüro traue ich mich nicht hier reinzuschrieben, weil ich nicht weiß, ob ich dann Ärger kriege.

 

Nachdem ich jetzt auch weitergeforscht habe, habe ich herausgefunden, daß die 1700 Dollar die uns von HAL berechnet wurden, wohl dafür waren, daß wir auf der Warteliste standen. Obwohl ich das dann gar nicht mehr verstehe, denn zu einem Deposit der Warteliste schreibt HAT folgendes:

 

If you are interested, we could waitlist this sailing for you. For 4 guests, this would require a deposit of $1700.00. This deposit is fully refundable if you do not clear the waitlist, or if you do not accept the waitlist confirmation when it comes through.

 

Ich weiß nicht, was das Reisebüro gemacht hat. Ich habe ihnen aufjedenfall innerhalb der 48 Stunden geschrieben, daß ich die Reise nicht machen kann. Abgesagt hat das Reisebüro bei HAL (laut HAL) aber erst ein paar Tage vor Abfahrt des Schiffes.

Ich verstehe nicht, wie das mit dem Deposit für die Warteliste zusammenhängt?

 

 

Ich hoffe immer noch auf Antwort des Briefes an HAL

 

Liebe Grüße Svenja

[Svenja66]

I traied a long time to put the fax from the travelagency here to the thread but it doesnt work. The fax says that we will have 48 hours to look for flights. Now I found out, that the 1700 Dollar they charged us was for a Deposit of the waiting list. As a room was available on the waiting list she told me, that I will have 48 hours for the flights. I needed a direkt flight because I have my children (2 and 7years) with me and my mom (70 years). I told her, that if I dont find a direkt flight which is not to expancive, I cant do the cruise. After I looked day and night in the different places in Internet I realy tryed everything to go to Florida. But 2 weeks before departure there was nothing I could use. I will not say there was no direkt flight from Germany to Florida but it was really really expancive. However I cancelled the reservation at the travelagency within the 48 hours, but they cancelled just 3 days before departure at HAL. (Thats what HAL says)

After I told the Travelagency that my deposit was not payed back they promissed me to stay in contakt with HAL, but I never heared anything of them again. So I thought the best thing I could do was to send a letter to HAL to explain everything from the beginning. Now I am waiting for answer.

 

Bye Svenja

[Svenja66]

I put the information which visa gave me on a jpg. I dont now if it works

Svenja

[Svenja66]

Hallo Gert,

noch zur Erklärung warum ich mich nicht auf dein Schreiben von cruise-chat gemeldet habe. Ich hatte es ja in beiden Foren geposted, bekam in dem anderen Forum aber nur wenige Antworten. Ich hatte es so eingestellt, daß ich bei einer neuen Antwort auf meine Frage eine automatische mail kriegen sollte. Das hat aber nicht geklappt oder ich habe das auch falsch gemacht.

Entschuldigung und trotzdem Danke für die ausführliche Antwort.

Svenja

[Svenja66]

Entschuldigung Du bist Gerd mit d - mein Vater schreibt sich mit t :)

[Jade13]

I traied a long time to put the fax from the travelagency here to the thread but it doesnt work. The fax says that we will have 48 hours to look for flights. Now I found out, that the 1700 Dollar they charged us was for a Deposit of the waiting list. As a room was available on the waiting list she told me, that I will have 48 hours for the flights. I needed a direkt flight because I have my children (2 and 7years) with me and my mom (70 years). I told her, that if I dont find a direkt flight which is not to expancive, I cant do the cruise. After I looked day and night in the different places in Internet I realy tryed everything to go to Florida. But 2 weeks before departure there was nothing I could use. I will not say there was no direkt flight from Germany to Florida but it was really really expancive. However I cancelled the reservation at the travelagency within the 48 hours, but they cancelled just 3 days before departure at HAL. (Thats what HAL says)

After I told the Travelagency that my deposit was not payed back they promissed me to stay in contakt with HAL, but I never heared anything of them again. So I thought the best thing I could do was to send a letter to HAL to explain everything from the beginning. Now I am waiting for answer.

 

Bye Svenja

 

Hi, I can read the note (Is that from HAL?) that the Agency canceled 3 days before your cruise and the bank charge went through since you were at 100% penalty. What you need to show is the fax/letter (perhaps you can quote the main points) showing this was a 48 hour hold as well as your correspondance the next day that you would not be taking the cruise. What we all don't understand is

 

1) how HAL accepted partial payment of $1,700 two weeks before the cruise date? What was the total amount due? By that point did someone contact you for the full payment?

 

2) Why did you give the TA your credit card information, as that is not required (it wasn't for me) to hold a reservation for 48 hours to look for flights?

 

3) Do you have the letter/e-mail correspondance showing this was a "hold" (I think you do but are unable to post it)

 

4) Do you have a letter/e-mail within the 48 hours showing you would not be taking the cruise?

 

5) Do you have the TA letter/e-mail confirming receipt of your letter/e-mail that you no longer needed the cruise held since you would not be going?

 

The issue is that they did not "hold" the cabin for you but charged your credit card with the deposit. By that point the TA would have had to contact you about getting you your cruise documents. Did you even get formal paperwork showing your cabin as well as HAL's booking number?

 

Also, out TA requires us to sign the paperwork (can be scanned and e-mailed back) accepting terms. Did you sign docs from the TA showing that you understood that the deposit was not refundable?

 

It is unfortunate that guidelines do not allow you to post the name of the on-line TA, but HAL needed full payment two weeks before the cruise. Even if the TA claims that you did not "cancel", that doesn't explain why they did not take your full payment, send you your paperwork/booking info (maybe they did?) or contact you to arrange sending your cruise documents.

[Svenja66]

Hello Jade13 and thanks for answer.

 

to your questions:

1) The total was 5600 Dollar. Never someone contakted me for full payment.

 

2) The TA told me that she can just put me on the waitinglist with my creditcard because it was so close to the departure date. She told me, that this is the only way to held it for 48 hours to look for the flights.(in the case that a room will be available).

 

3. I have a fax of here where she ask about the creditcardinformation and that we will have 48 hours for held. I will try in the eavening to get it here maybe also as a jpg.

 

4. I have acopy of my e mail which i send to here who sais that i didnt found a flight and that i dont need the reservation longer.

 

5. After I cancelled at the TA I never heared anything of them. They didnt ansered the mails. Just weeks later as I told them, that HAL charged the deposit. They wrote me that I did not cancelled the hold.

 

I never had any paperwork or a HAL's booking number.

As I saw on my bank that they charged the deposit I was really destroied.

 

Did you sign docs from the TA showing that you understood that the deposit was not refundable? No never !!! She promissed me that it will be paied back after the 48 hours hold if I dont need the room.

 

 

Thanks for your help

Svenja

[happy cruzer]

I think you told us that HAL did the charge against your credit card. so they actually have your money.

 

I think your best bet would be to get them to give you a credit toward a future cruise. Your TA should help you get this worked out. I truly believe you have been a victim of the travel agency but getting the proper compensation may not be impossible. I would work through the TA (get them to specifically ask for the credit versus a refund) for a while trying to document the process. If that doesn't work then work directly with HAL.

 

Please keep us informed.

[Jade13]

I just saw this -

 

"If you are interested, we could waitlist this sailing for you. For 4 guests, this would require a deposit of $1700.00. This deposit is fully refundable if you do not clear the waitlist, or if you do not accept the waitlist confirmation when it comes through."

 

I think you are the victim of the TA. It seems that the TA "required" the $1,700 and not HAL. However, HAL must have some correspondance with the TA asking for the rest of your money. Over in the US we would be protected by our Credit Card company by putting the charge in the "Dispute State" (which I think you have done since you showed the response the CC company has from Hal?) and showing the e-mails where the TA says it is a "Hold" and the e-mail where you say "We can't find flights and do not want this cabin". What you don't seem to have is the confirmation e-mail where the TA confirms receipt of your e-mail. A good TA would just try to sell you another cruise but this one already sent your money to HAL.

 

 

What I'm also not clear about and is confusing to me as an English speaker is what does "This deposit is fully refundable if you do not clear the waitlist, or if you do not accept the waitlist confirmation when it comes through."

 

I can read this two ways:

 

1) Are they saying the TA is sending you paperwork to confirm the TA putting you on the waitlist in which case you agree to pay in full if they get you off of the waitlist and understand the deposit is not refundable, or

 

2) Once a waitlisted cabin opens up you have an option to not accept that cabin (I think is how you are reading it which is how I would since it is possible they could give you an inside or another cabin you do not want).

 

Did you get either a form from the TA to confirm being on the waitlist and agreeing your deposit is not refundable if it comes through or a different e-mail saying there is a cabin available and whether or not you want the cabin. Which "confirmation" is the TA saying you confirmed?

 

I think you need to go around the TA and write a letter directly to HAL showing that you were told it was only a "Hold", you "canceled" within 48 hours and the final argument is that you never received your booking number, cruise details etc....On what date did the TA charge through your $1,700 to HAL? Was it before the 48 hours?

 

Any finally, what is HAL"s policy on waitlisted cabins? Does anyone have the official policy and how it works within the penalty period? The reason that I ask is that it would be odd to have a policy where you have to put a deposit on the waitlist, but then have to accept it if you get off of the waitlist even if you don't want that cabin. Perhaps though it is the same as a grt cabin, but the OP would have still had to sign paperwork noting that he understood the deposit was not refundable if he got off of the waitlist. Either way, I think that e-mail is confusing.

[Jade13]

I think you told us that HAL did the charge against your credit card. so they actually have your money.

 

I think your best bet would be to get them to give you a credit toward a future cruise. Your TA should help you get this worked out. I truly believe you have been a victim of the travel agency but getting the proper compensation may not be impossible. I would work through the TA (get them to specifically ask for the credit versus a refund) for a while trying to document the process. If that doesn't work then work directly with HAL.

 

Please keep us informed.

 

Happy, why should she get a future cruise credit and not a full refund if the TA was dishonest and truly did not give her a 48 hour hold? She says she did not sign anything and that seems odd that the TA would not have a form with signature required stating that the $1,700 is not refundable. If the TA says they are looking into it (and she has e-mails regarding this) than there is proof that the TA did not cancel within the 48 hour hold period. If the TA thought the cruise was booked and did not receive her "cancel" email, than why did they not charge through the rest of the amount, as well as send out a confirmation with booking number? Of course we may not know all of the facts, but I am assuming that someone posting Anon on CC is telling us the facts.

 

If the e-mail was a quote regarding accepting the waitlist confirmation than it truly can be read two ways and the TA was certainly not clear in spelling out "You deposit is not refundable".

 

What I would like to hear from others is what is Hal's policy regarding "wailisted" cabins. I have seen posts saying "I'm on the waitlist", but is $$$ required before a cabin opens up if you are within 30 days or so of the cruise? It is possible that the OP (unfortunately) got someone new at the Agency correspondanding and another in accounting putting her money through and the TA really did scew up.

 

Even though they can not post the name, I would love to know if the TA is one that advertises on CC?

[happy cruzer]

My earlier message was not clear and had a typo.

 

I think that the situation is one that may not be possible to clear up, i.e. the OP may not have enough documentation to make it obvious that HAL should do a refund. Therefore, I think it may be easier to get a credit because HAL will still get the business. Sometimes, I think it is better to take the easier solution and go on with life, and this may be such a case IMHO.

 

But I think everyone is making good points about how unusual this Hold situation is.

[Svenja66]

Hello, thanks for answer. I will try this.

 

I am not at home the next days so i cant answer here in the forum. i will wirte, when i am back. Bye svenja

[Svenja66]

Hello, I got the answer of the letter which I have send to HAl.

 

I am very sad about it. I realy cant belive. `

Heres the letter:

 

 

Thank you for the letter to Mr. Stein Kruse regarding your cancelled Holland America Line reservations. Mr. Kruse has reviewed your letter in detail and has asked me to respond on his behalf. We were very sorry to learn of any miscommunications you encountered with your travel agent and the handling of your bookings.

Because our company receives requests such as yours every day, we have outlined our cancellation policies in our literature for the information and benefit of guests and their travel agents. Regardless of the unforeseen obstacles that many potential guests suddenly encounter, these policies remain. The only considerations that may be made are for those specific cancellations whereby a serious Holland America Line error has occurred. Otherwise, it is our position that penalty brackets and deadlines are followed to conclusion without exception. While we are not in a position to intervene, we hope that you may find resolution either with your travel agent directly, or management within the agency.

Your feedback has been included in our reports to appropriate members of senior management who also review the service that various travel agencies provide our mutual clients. Beyond our sincere apologies, we thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

 

Very truly yours,