I Think It Is Just WRONG!

[ekerr19]

At one point my Mom, dad and three older sisters all smoked. A pack of cigarettes were never further than the nearest end table, purse hanging up or kitchen counter. Never took a puff (til many years later and that was through the friends I hung out with. )

 

I just laugh at what has become so taboo in our society ,when in other areas anything goes.

 

I am often amazed how we survived all that smoking, lol!!! EVERYone I knew smoked! They smoked in grocery stores, Doctor's offices, banks - you name it - and they chain smoked, 24/7.

 

Running errands with my Mom was truly hazardous to my health, lol!!!! :eek:

[gizmo]

I can remember when no respectable woman would be seen in a bar - at least in my home state - never mind sitting on a bar stool!! Horrors! :eek: I agree with those that think under the circumstances it's no big deal.

 

LOL Repectable or not, I remember when a women could not sit at a bar ! It was not allowed ! ( NYC )

 

Many places had "ladies entrances" which where usually around the side. When you entered you were in a separate room with tables and chairs. That is where the ladies sat.

[lawyerrose]

Laura ,

 

I agree 100%

 

I am 43 , so I grew up in the era before smoking became the crime against humanity it is now , and everyone had a drink when they came over to visit .

 

a few feet away from where I played with my toys and watched cartoons was a bar with every bottle of liqour imaginable behind it. Never even dared to take a sip. I remember being about 12 or 13 and having a friend sleep over. He saw the bar in the house and wanted to know if we could sneak some after my parents went to sleep. He had never seen liqour in a house like that before. certainly not his house. I told him "What are you crazy? My parents would kill me"

 

 

At one point my Mom, dad and three older sisters all smoked. A pack of cigarettes were never further than the nearest end table, purse hanging up or kitchen counter. Never took a puff (til many years later and that was through the friends I hung out with. )

 

I just laugh at what has become so taboo in our society ,when in other areas anything goes.

 

 

Amen. You said it better. Thanks.

[theodoron]

Yeah, just what we need. MORE government interference in our private family lives. More silly laws trying to "protect" us from some imagined evil.:rolleyes:

 

WEM:eek:

[babyher]

I am often amazed how we survived all that smoking, lol!!! EVERYone I knew smoked! They smoked in grocery stores, Doctor's offices, banks - you name it - and they chain smoked, 24/7.

 

Running errands with my Mom was truly hazardous to my health, lol!!!! :eek:

 

*LOL* That is so true. I remember they actually had smoking rooms in hospitals.

 

Not too long ago I was going through "YouTube" and they were showing the old cigarette commercials from the 50s "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Lucky Strikes" YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *LOL*

[Copper10-8]

............The "we paid good $$" was the basis of their argument. One of the dads threw a punch and DD and I skidaddled out of there as fast as we could.

 

He threw a punch at ship's staff?? If that's what happened, that friendly guy just threw his good $$ into the drink as well as, I'm thinking, he found himself standing on the pier with his luggage at the next port of call. I'm not even going into being charged with battery. And if neither two happened, I hope he went straight to the casino because he should have considered himself extremely lucky

[lawyerrose]

WEM:eek:

 

WEM??????:confused:

[Copper10-8]

WEM??????:confused:

 

Well, excuuuUUUUUUuuuuse Meeeeeee

[babyher]

LOL Repectable or not, I remember when a women could not sit at a bar ! It was not allowed ! ( NYC )

 

Many places had "ladies entrances" which where usually around the side. When you entered you were in a separate room with tables and chairs. That is where the ladies sat.

 

 

Theres an old building around here that used to be a saloon and still has the "Ladies entrance" sign over one of the doors .

 

My mother told me a story about a time she was dating this fellow that my grandfather hated (Thankfully not my dad :)) The kids father was a known neighborhood barfly so my grandfather figured the kid was no better.

 

He told my mother to always have a nickle (you can tell how long ago this was) when she went out with this guy so she could call him and he could pick her up in case the guy tried to take her to a "bar and grill" :)

[lawyerrose]

Well, excuuuUUUUUUuuuuse Meeeeeee

 

Oh. Ooops!!:o

[DOC & BABE]

well this is interesting conversation, whose choice is it to raise a child, what do you think the child is seeing at the bar, were people being offensive, would you be as unhappy if there was music in the bar. really, the bars we have seen on a ship are just another lovely part of the ship not a danger zone. was it late night, nude persons, no smoking on most of the ships so what was the problem? did the fact that a child was in adult zones upset you because you had to share space or behave and set an example for children or do you think children should not be heard or seen. do you think drinking at a table changes how a child views alcohol? really, our sons are 32 and 37, well traveled and experienced in fine dinning and thank goodness learned how to handle most places they well encounter other people, so i don't know your problem with ship lounges and children!

[LegalSailor]

I think it's okay, on a cruise, for a couple to bring their child into the lounge but for them to sit at a table. I don't like the idea of a young child on a barstool. What ekerr describes is fine in my opinion. It is a family vacation and I'd far rather see the children with their parents than roaming the ship by themselves. Assuming the parents and child are not distruptive in any way, what's the harm. The child may well see her parents have a glass of wine each evening after work before their dinner. It might not be a strange scenario for her except for her being on this great, big, beautiful ship being spoiled by HAL stewards. :D

 

 

I think that's a pretty good line of reasoning. Alcohol was never hidden in my family as it was in DW's, so I can't argue that being in a bar is bad for the child - I think its better to be open with alcohol than to hide it, that way you don't freak out about it later.

I do agree that it may seem out of place for a child to sit at a barstool - I probably would have gotten a good chuckle out of it though and ordered her a beer, of the root variety for kicks. I guess the child wouldn't have been a bother to you if she had been at a table instead of sitting next to Cliff and Norm at the Bar?:cool:

Cheers,

[trubey]

Perhaps the puritan attitudes some have shown here are one reason for the incredible amount of underage drinking in the US -- it's verboten, therefore attractive.

 

The drinking age here is 16. Do kids (meaning teenagers) drink at bars? Yep, Coca Cola, by choice. Can a 7-year-old take a bottle of wine home for his family's dinner? Yep. Everybody knows it's not for him. When it's not a big mysterious "big-people-only" thing, it's not as enticing maybe.

 

JMHO.

 

Lane

[terrydtx]

The only way to settle this is to take all the children on the ship and put them on a raft and tow them behind the ship at night This is the only practical way to protect their little innocent minds from all of the debauchery that goes on HAL ships at night.:mad: :eek:

[barbon2]

I am not a big drinker and never took my kids to the bar on a ship....

(They learned to drink on their own in college, lol)

However, in defense of the parents, and with recent events where children have disappeared, perhaps the parents felt safer taking the child with them then leaving the child alone in the room.

I wonder what type of comments would have been made if someone saw a 10 year old walking around by themselves at night on a ship.

Barbara

[Mary "Get Get"]

This has been an interesting thread to follow.Not wishing to offend the OP point of view as I really enjoy following her posts...However,it had never even occurred to me that if we sailed with pre-teen grandchildren and choose to sit with them at bar stools,Ocean Bar ,or any of the other bars,that this would be considered inappropriate.

To add a little levity ,if it was formal night ,he and Grandpa would be in a Tux!!!!

[Jade13]

My first thought was how lucky these kids are they they are not left with a babysitter (or at home!).

 

Is it possible that the OP (and others) are more upset that the children were taking up the space where other adults could sit at a bar? I guess I could understand that as (not right before dinner when the children are with their parents) but at other times there is a kids area and teenage area where Adults are not allowed.

[Solstice]

I think it's interesting that the people who have objected seem to be of two minds. One group doesn't think children should be exposed to adults consuming alcohol and the other doesn't want to be disturbed by children taking up space at the bar or acting badly. I'm not offended by either opinion, I just think it's kind of amusing.

 

Personally, I'm not offended by children in bars (as long as they are well behaved!) and don't think it will have any ill effect on them. Alcohol isn't evil and bars are not 'bad' places. It's OK for kids to know that.

 

We aren't talking about a child forced to watch a parent routinely get trashed at the corner bar, we're talking about children accompanying their parents at a 'respectable' bar on a lovely vacation. As a child I was always able to accompany my parents to the bar for a pre-dinner drink (or two). I recall being offered a Shirley Temple by the bartenders (7UP with a little fruit in it) or a Roy Rogers (Coke with a maraschino cherry). I didn't turn out to be a drunk, a criminal or a politician.

 

Of course, if the people you saw in the bar weren't appropriately dressed, then I take back everything I said...

[kakalina]

I am not offended by anyone elses viewpoint, that is why I asked for opinions. For the record; we did not speak to the parents, would not even consider doing such a thing. Far be it from be to tell others how to raise their children, raising mine was hard enough.

 

I thought it wrong and wondered if others thought differently. It seems to be about even pro and con on the thread as far as I can see.

 

Thanks for the compliment Mary "Get Get"

[zaandam_2]

wow. this has gone to 4 pages quickly.

 

as long as the kids are behaving (and not in a smoking area), i would have no problem with this.

[O2B@C]

.... Alcohol was never hidden in my family... I think its better to be open with alcohol than to hide it, that way you don't freak out about it later...

 

Perhaps the puritan attitudes some have shown here are one reason for the incredible amount of underage drinking in the US -- it's verboten, therefore attractive. The drinking age here is 16. Do kids (meaning teenagers) drink at bars? Yep, Coca Cola, by choice. Can a 7-year-old take a bottle of wine home for his family's dinner? Yep. Everybody knows it's not for him. When it's not a big mysterious "big-people-only" thing, it's not as enticing maybe. JMHO. Lane

 

... We aren't talking about a child forced to watch a parent routinely get trashed at the corner bar, we're talking about children accompanying their parents at a 'respectable' bar on a lovely vacation. As a child I was always able to accompany my parents to the bar for a pre-dinner drink (or two). I recall being offered a Shirley Temple by the bartenders (7UP with a little fruit in it) or a Roy Rogers (Coke with a maraschino cherry). I didn't turn out to be a drunk, a criminal or a politician...

 

I agree with all of the above comments. When I crossed the Atlantic with my parents as a child, they always took me with them for their before-dinner drink (properly dressed, of course!). (They were moderate social drinkers who never abused alcohol.) I would be given a Shirley Temple or the like, and if there was music, sometimes I would get to dance with my Daddy. It was a harmless thrill for me, and a good way to learn how to behave properly in that setting. When I got to be 16 or so, I was allowed half a glass of wine with dinner. I definitely think that my early exposure to alcohol as a civilized adult pleasure, to be indulged only in moderation, has a great deal to do with why, as an adult (and I'm now a grandmother), I drink only occasionally, and never to excess.

[DesertDiva]

I don't think children belong in bars or lounges, but for some different reasons. Bars and lounges are "adult" places - the conversation usually isn't edited, alcohol is served, and sometimes even adults act in "inappropriate" ways when consuming alcohol. Children don't need to be exposed to any of those things. Even though children are with their parents, I would think they would feel a little "out of place" in a room virtually filled with adults.

 

On the ship, there are places for "kids to be kids." There's Club HAL, activities by the pool, etc... Likewise; bars and lounges, late night comedy shows, etc... are more for adults.

 

While a "chair is a chair," it's doesn't have the same connotation at a table as opposed to the bar. Bars conjure up images of men telling jokes, smoking cigars, and drinking. It's like a little outlined "social club." Not that women can't sit at the bar - it's a little daring and sexy to do so.

 

I work in education and see children all day. When I cruise, I love seeing "well-behaved" children having fun. However, I want there to be a place where I can enjoy a cocktail, conversation, and even a little bawdy fun.

 

Yes, mom and dad paid for their cruise (as did I) and deserve to have a good time. However, I think there are enough activities and venues for parents to have a drink without taking their children to bars and lounges.

[wander]

I have no problem with well behaved children with their well behaved parents in bars/lounges on ships. However, it reminds me of a experience on the Ryndam last December. A number of us were in the piano bar playing "Name that Tune" after dinner. A couple came in with their two young sons (about 5 and 2) and sat at a table in the midst of the "Tune" players. The you boy began to cry and scream, shreak, etc. It was next to impossible to hear the piano guy but the parents did not seem to care at all. They sat there for about 10 minutes, with the shreaking almost constant. The child was seemingly not a happy camper, but then I doubt many 2-3 year olds like sitting in any chair at 9:30 in the evening. (We had seen him throw tantrums at various times on the cruise, he was a handful.) Anyhow, we just clenched our teeth a tried to play the game, not saying a word. After about ten minutes another couple with a child came in to speak with the parents. Between the piano and the child shreaking, the visiting woman had to literally shout to be heard. I had had it and nicely, although in a loud voice so as to be heard, asked her to please be quiet as we were all playing a game. She toned down, but the mother of the screamer turned to her older son, who was next to me, and said in a loud voice - You see (name), I warned you that some old people hate children. Wow, was that comment telling as I was very obviously addressing the other adult woman, NOT the child.

 

By the way, I am NOT old, I like children, but I do NOT think much of parents that allow a child to continue scream without removing them from restaurants, churches, cruise ship lounges, etc.

[kura]

Perhaps the puritan attitudes some have shown here are one reason for the incredible amount of underage drinking in the US -- it's verboten, therefore attractive.

 

JMHO.

 

Lane

I agree.... We are not big drinkers, but from about the age of 10 if we were having a drink, our children were always offered a small drink to taste. They are now 21 and 20 and would very rarely have anything to drink even though the legal age of drinking in Australia is 18. They are just not interested as it has never been taboo

[O2B@C]

I have no problem with well behaved children with their well behaved parents in bars/lounges on ships. However, it reminds me of a experience on the Ryndam last December. A number of us were in the piano bar playing "Name that Tune" after dinner. A couple came in with their two young sons (about 5 and 2) and sat at a table in the midst of the "Tune" players. The you boy began to cry and scream, shreak, etc. It was next to impossible to hear the piano guy but the parents did not seem to care at all. They sat there for about 10 minutes, with the shreaking almost constant. The child was seemingly not a happy camper, but then I doubt many 2-3 year olds like sitting in any chair at 9:30 in the evening. (We had seen him throw tantrums at various times on the cruise, he was a handful.) Anyhow, we just clenched our teeth a tried to play the game, not saying a word. After about ten minutes another couple with a child came in to speak with the parents. Between the piano and the child shreaking, the visiting woman had to literally shout to be heard. I had had it and nicely, although in a loud voice so as to be heard, asked her to please be quiet as we were all playing a game. She toned down, but the mother of the screamer turned to her older son, who was next to me, and said in a loud voice - You see (name), I warned you that some old people hate children. Wow, was that comment telling as I was very obviously addressing the other adult woman, NOT the child.

 

By the way, I am NOT old, I like children, but I do NOT think much of parents that allow a child to continue scream without removing them from restaurants, churches, cruise ship lounges, etc.

 

Oh, I am so TOTALLY with you on this! Similar thing happened to me on a cruise (not HAL) - on embarkation day, I was in the lounge where the dining room manager was supposed to be available to discuss table assignments. Several of us had been waiting a long time, and the guy never did show up. Anyway, there was a family there with two small children. The whole time, they were running around ON the long sectional couch under the window, climbing all over everything, and making a lot of noise, with the parents doing NOTHING to get them to stop. Finally, I got to the end of my rope and said, half under my breath, "That's a couch, not a jungle gym." The mom heard me, and responded "If you don't like kids, don't get on the boat." :confused: :eek: I wanted to reply, but I figured it was better just to ignore her. Nothing I said was going to turn her into a decent parent. A few minutes later, the younger child fell off the couch and bumped his head on the floor and started wailing. (Fortunately it was just a little bump - nothing serious.) I had to bite my tongue not to say "I told you so," but I figured it went without saying.

 

And no, I don't hate children. But I really cannot bear parents who don't "get it" that it is their job to teach their children how to behave appropriately in public situations, and to remove them if they have a meltdown and are bothering other people. They're not doing their kids any favors by failing to teach them self-control, either. Grrrrr!:mad:

 

OK, that's off my chest. Thanks for letting me rant. Sorry if I've offended anyone.