No premium cruise lines

[Sky Sweet]

Hi X Cruiser :)

I agree with you that Celebrity has better passenger to crew and space ratios than most of the other mass market cruise lines, which is one of its best features.

As far as larger cabins and better cuisine, I would have agreed with you several years ago.

However, in the interim a number of other mass market cruise lines have built ships with larger cabins than Celebrity.

In addition, the quality of food on Celebrity has slipped in recent years, while it has improved on other mass market cruise lines, with the exception of Celebrity's specialty restaurants and aqua spa cafe which are still excellent.

[Drew B]

[quote name='Xcruiser'][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Correct me if I’m wrong (and I expect I will see many different opinions) but my understanding was the label “Premium” came out of the travel industry not the cruise lines. It was used to describe those lines in mass market class that offered a more “Premium” value based on such criteria as:[/FONT][LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana]Passenger to crew ratio.[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Verdana]Public space to passenger ratio.[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Verdana]High standard of service.[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Verdana]Majority of staterooms exceeding industry standards in size.[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Verdana]Improvements in standards of dinning.[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Verdana]More upscale onboard experience that follows the traditions of cruising.[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/quote]

The concrete criteria ("Passenger to crew ratio", "Public space to passenger ratio" & stateroom size) are worth discussing as a possible litmus test for whether one cruise line deserves a different designation from another. Criteria such as "High standard of service", "Improvements in standards of dining" and "More upscale onboard experience..." are essentially subjective and therefore arbitrary. Just because one customer feels that a certain cruise line has better service, better food or a more upscale experience doesn't make it TRUE. There are fans of Carnival who say that line has better food and more enjoyable service (they feel that X's service is cold and stuffy). Does that make Carnival the premium line and X the mass market one?

No, if the criteria are not quantifiable, there is no point using them to designate a different class...

[Maya-Tucker]

[quote name='ablumenfeld']Here's a tidbit of info that may be of interest in light of this discussion:
[URL]http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberpoll_index.cfm[/URL]

"Your Choice for the Best in Cruising" readers poll, from this site.

Other than the Celebrity Xpedition (which only does the Galapagos, and is a very different ship and experience compared to the rest of the fleet), I don't see a single Celebrity ship making the top ten. [B]Of any list.[/B][/quote]

This sure makes the Conde Nast polls look fixed. I would lend more credance to this cruise critic reader poll than a magazine poll put in place to satisfy its biggest advertisers.

It just goes to show that the mass market lines have pretty much become interchangable other than their own little unique nuances.

[Karynanne]

[quote name='Maya-Tucker']This sure makes the Conde Nast polls look fixed. I would lend more credance to this cruise critic reader poll than a magazine poll put in place to satisfy its biggest advertisers.

It just goes to show that the mass market lines have pretty much become interchangable other than their own little unique nuances.[/QUOTE]

Cruise Critic is read by only about 5% of the passengers, on the various ships.

I would look at a variety of polls, sites, magazines, etc. to gather and influence my cruising decisions.

[Drew B]

I don't even understand the methodology. Seriously how many of the people polled could have actually even sailed XPedition? And yet she is at the top of all the polls. Shouldn't ships that carry thousands of passengers at a time have a huge lead simply because of the fact that so many more people will have experience with them, whether positive or negative?

[Maya-Tucker]

[quote name='Drew B']I don't even understand the methodology. Seriously how many of the people polled could have actually even sailed XPedition? And yet she is at the top of all the polls. Shouldn't ships that carry thousands of passengers at a time have a huge lead simply because of the fact that so many more people will have experience with them, whether positive or negative?[/quote]

The number of responses must be divided by the annual capacity of the ship thus putting ships of various sizes on an equal playing field.

[Maya-Tucker]

[quote name='Karynanne']Cruise Critic is read by only about 5% of the passengers, on the various ships.

I would look at a variety of polls, sites, magazines, etc. to gather and influence my cruising decisions.[/quote]

I don't put very much credance into magazines who bias their polls to their biggest advertisers.

Port Hole Magazine is one that is known for not having biased polls while Conde Nast perhaps has the worst (best) reputation for supporting their advertisers be they cruise ships or hotels.

I find that these and other boards are a fairly good cross-section of information. You do have to weed out those posters who have an obvious bias to a certain line, and those who have an obvious dislike for a particular line.

As always your own personal likes and dislikes will ultimately determine which line is a better fit for you.

[ECCruise]

Somehow the cruise critic ratings are skewed, pure and simple.

Somehow the Xpedition rankings make no sense (and this is from someone who has sailed Xpedition in the last month or so and loved it).

Top 5 in cabins? I don't think so. Small and minimally equipped. Nice, but not top 5.

#2 in public rooms? There is only ONE public room besides the restaurant and it is simple and utilitarian.

Top 5 in service? Excellent service but above Seabourn and Oceania? I don't think so.

Top 6 in entertainment? There IS no entertainment save a movie one night and a local folkloric group another.

Somehow it doesn't fit.

[Xcruiser]

[quote name='Drew B']The concrete criteria ("Passenger to crew ratio", "Public space to passenger ratio" & stateroom size) are worth discussing as a possible litmus test for whether one cruise line deserves a different designation from another. Criteria such as "High standard of service", "Improvements in standards of dining" and "More upscale onboard experience..." are essentially subjective and therefore arbitrary. Just because one customer feels that a certain cruise line has better service, better food or a more upscale experience doesn't make it TRUE. There are fans of Carnival who say that line has better food and more enjoyable service (they feel that X's service is cold and stuffy). Does that make Carnival the premium line and X the mass market one?

No, if the criteria are not quantifiable, there is no point using them to designate a different class...[/quote]
[FONT=Verdana]Drew, please reread my post as I think you are making the same point. I don’t believe the label “Premium” was ever a separate class from the mass market lines. The criterion used at the time (mid to late 90’s) by the travel industry and many respected reviewers was in itself subjective. However both Celebrity and HAL have remained focused on a segment of the main stream market by evidence of ship design and use of public space. While other lines have more of a mass appeal focus which is further from the traditions of sailing. If you factor in marketing efforts of the lines you can see where the focus is placed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I was just offering my option based on the OP’s statement regarding HAL and Celebrity. I agree the differences outside of the focus in the market place are small by today’s standards but still present. [/FONT]

Joel

[richsea]

[quote name='Maya-Tucker']I don't put very much credance into magazines who bias their polls to their biggest advertisers.

Port Hole Magazine is one that is known for not having biased polls while Conde Nast perhaps has the worst (best) reputation for supporting their advertisers be they cruise ships or hotels.[/QUOTE]

Is this based on facts, & if so, what are they? Or is this just your opinion (or perception)?

[Xcruiser]

[quote name='Sky Sweet']Hi X Cruiser :)

I agree with you that Celebrity has better passenger to crew and space ratios than most of the other mass market cruise lines, which is one of its best features.

As far as larger cabins and better cuisine, I would have agreed with you several years ago.

However, in the interim a number of other mass market cruise lines have built ships with larger cabins than Celebrity.

In addition, the quality of food on Celebrity has slipped in recent years, while it has improved on other mass market cruise lines, with the exception of Celebrity's specialty restaurants and aqua spa cafe which are still excellent.[/quote]
[FONT=Verdana]I wasn’t saying that Celebrity was superior in all these areas only that of the mass market lines both Celebrity and HAL still meet much of the criteria which the label Premium applied to. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]As for cabin size and food served in the dinning room I’m in general agreement. However on my last cruise on Century they upgraded the food in the lido and in my opinion it was the best I’ve experienced on any mass market line. I would compare it closer to Azamara in quality with a greater selection. They were about to make the same change in the food dinning room and per our waiter who had sampled the menu, the change will be very big improvement. Connie should have had that menu on its last cruise so we should be finding out if this is the true. Food however is very subjective and I recall some not liking it back when I thought it was excellent. [/FONT]

[ottawapuppy]

[quote name='Xcruiser'][FONT=Verdana]However on my last cruise on Century they upgraded the food in the lido and in my opinion it was the best I’ve experienced on any mass market line. [/FONT][/quote]

Just back from Century and I'd have to agree with you there. Never ate a full meal in the buffet, but had bits and pieces here and there and the selection and quality was outstanding. The sushi in the evening was very good.
It was such a short cruise I would have loved to try out more of what was offered, though I guess that leaves the cruise line in the best possible situation: leave 'em wanting more!

Mike

[Sky Sweet]

[quote name='Xcruiser'][FONT=Verdana]I wasn’t saying that Celebrity was superior in all these areas only that of the mass market lines both Celebrity and HAL still meet much of the criteria which the label Premium applied to. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]As for cabin size and food served in the dinning room I’m in general agreement. However on my last cruise on Century they upgraded the food in the lido and in my opinion it was the best I’ve experienced on any mass market line. I would compare it closer to Azamara in quality with a greater selection. They were about to make the same change in the food dinning room and per our waiter who had sampled the menu, the change will be very big improvement. Connie should have had that menu on its last cruise so we should be finding out if this is the true. Food however is very subjective and I recall some not liking it back when I thought it was excellent. [/FONT][/quote]

Hi XCruiser :)

Glad to hear that you had such a good experience on Century. We haven't been on Century since she had her major renovation, but at the time I thought she was more elegant than the M class ships. I also loved the huge balcony we had on our sky suite, which was partially covered and partially exposed to the sun.

[Xcruiser]

[quote name='Sky Sweet']Hi XCruiser :)

Glad to hear that you had such a good experience on Century. We haven't been on Century since she had her major renovation, but at the time I thought she was more elegant than the M class ships. I also loved the huge balcony we had on our sky suite, which was partially covered and partially exposed to the sun.[/quote]
[FONT=Verdana]Thanks Sky,[/FONT]:)

[FONT=Verdana]We did enjoy our return to Century very much and agree there is something that gives she ship a very classy feel. I liked most of the changes but not all and it did make for a new experience. I’m glad it still remains my favorite ship. Now why could I guess you had a Sky Suite on Century? :rolleyes: ;) [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Joel[/FONT]

[Drew B]

[quote name='Xcruiser'][FONT=Verdana]Drew, please reread my post as I think you are making the same point. I don’t believe the label “Premium” was ever a separate class from the mass market lines. The criterion used at the time (mid to late 90’s) by the travel industry and many respected reviewers was in itself subjective. [B]However both Celebrity and HAL have remained focused on a segment of the main stream market by evidence of ship design and use of public space. While other lines have more of a mass appeal focus which is further from the traditions of sailing. If you factor in marketing efforts of the lines you can see where the focus is placed.[/B][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I was just offering my option based on the OP’s statement regarding HAL and Celebrity. I agree the differences outside of the focus in the market place are small by today’s standards but still present. [/FONT]

Joel[/quote]

I am all for reviewers discussing this difference in focus in the text of their writing. However, to grant a different [I]label[/I] sets up expectations that I don't think such subtle distinctions warrant. As the existence of this very thread attests, when there are unmet expectations, it causes disappointment. That isn't good for anybody.

[Xcruiser]

[quote name='Drew B']I am all for reviewers discussing this difference in focus in the text of their writing. However, to grant a different [I]label[/I] sets up expectations that I don't think such subtle distinctions warrant. As the existence of this very thread attests, when there are unmet expectations, it causes disappointment. That isn't good for anybody.[/quote]
[FONT=Verdana]Drew, I respect your opinion but this label has been around long before I started cruising. It’s well known and is used on the respective lines web sites long with many, if not most online T/A’s and reviewers. I’m voicing my opinion only but I’m glad you don’t have a problem with discussing aspects of the cruise lines on these boards. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I’m addressing the OP’s statement. I can buy 8 cans of beer all for about the same price. Two of which might carry the label premium. I can taste them all and say they are all just beers, one no better then the other. Does that mean the label should be removed from the premium ones? Or if they meet most of criteria for which the label applies is that just my opinion? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]A label is just a label and doesn’t mean it’s presumed to be better, that would depend on your tastes.[/FONT]

[richsea]

[quote name='richsea']Is this based on facts, & if so, what are they? Or is this just your opinion (or perception)?[/QUOTE]

Well, Maya-Tucker??

[Drew B]

[quote name='Xcruiser'][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]I can buy 8 cans of beer all for about the same price. Two of which might carry the label premium. I can taste them all and say they are all just beers, one no better then the other. [B]Does that mean the label should be removed from the premium ones[/B]? Or if they meet most of criteria for which the label applies is that just my opinion? [/FONT][/quote]


You mean from the ones [I]labeled[/I] as premium, right? If the taste isn't different, then they're not really premium after all... At the very least, it means that the label is meaningless. In MY opinion, if the label is meaningless, then, yes, it should be removed. I haven't been made king of the world [yet], though, so I don't get to impose MY opinion onto everybody else...;)

[Ma Bell]

[B]I don't think he said the taste wasn't different. There are wines for example that are made with better grapes, from a better year, under better conditions , aged properly etc. that are labeled differently and priced higher and they should be better than others that are not made the same way.[/B]

[B]If you happen to like a cheaper wine better because of your personal preference that doesn't mean it is the same value as the finer wine, but it doesn't really matter if you like it.[/B]

[Drew B]

[quote name='Ma Bell'][B]I don't think he said the taste wasn't different. [/B][/quote]


He said they were all just beers - one no better than the other...

Still, your point about the wine is well taken. Perhaps there IS a difference with the premium label, but it requires discriminating taste to notice it. Do you think that could be the case with cruise lines as well? I think not, but that could just be because I lack the discriminating taste... :p

[Ma Bell]

Could be Drew, I've seen magazine reader surveys that say the best Italian restaurant in town is the Olive Garden.

[Drew B]

I AM a Red Lobster fan... :rolleyes:

 

 

But I know enough to distinguish it from "haute cuisine"...

[AFuncruiser]

How can you understand hot if you have been cold all your life?

How can you understand luxury cruising if all you have cruised on are mass market ships?

In order to sincerely appreciate premium wine you must experience a wide variety of both good and bad to develop discerning tastes.

I had the supreme pleasure of an eighteen night cruise, Auckland to LA on Regent (Renaissance) Seven Seas Mariner where I experienced superior service, excellent food and wine, a lovely suite, truly sophisticated and famous fellow travelers on a magnificent ship.

As an example of staff on the Seven Seas Mariner my cocktail waiter at happy hour spoke five languages and could wait tables in two more. He had been college trained in the art of conversation. The Regent cruise cost approximately three times more than a mass market ship over the same route. I will probably never be willing to pay for that level of sophistication again, but it gave me a good perception of what superior food, service and ambiance is.

I have been on Five Holland American cruises, two Celebrity cruises and booked on a third Celebrity Trans Atlantic. I have been on six or seven Carnival cruises, also on the rent a wreck of cruise lines MSC and several cruises on the Wal Mart of cruising The Norway before she blew up.

When I say there are no more premium lines I do have a good idea of what I am talking about.

Get me on the water at a good price with a decent outside cabin and I am a happy camper.

 

Dennis

An afternoon on the Norway 1981 / Christmas cruise 7 night1984 / Sky Princess 10 night / Russian Cruise Line 4 night / Crown Monarch 7 night / Festival Carnival 7 night / Norway 7 night September 1989 /

Regent Sea 15 night Panama Canal 1993 / Commodore Caribe 7 night / Regal Princess 7 night 1998

Star Princess 7 night 1999 / Zuiderdam Holland America 14 night 2000 ( Dec) / Tropical Carnival 5 night 2001

Norway August 7 night 2002 / Rydam Holland America 19 night South America 2003 /

Westerdam Holland America 14 night 2004 / Zenith Celebrity 14 night March 2005 /

Celebration Carnival 5 night September 2005 / MSV Lucia Central America 21 night Christmas 2005

Celebration Carnival 4 nights August 2006 / Celebration Carnival 5 nights September 2006

Seven Seas Mariner 18 night TP November 2006 / Celebration Carnival 5 nights March 2007

Celebrity Century Trans Atlantic April 26th 2007 / Celebration Carnival 5 nights Oct.15th 2007 /

/ Holland America Zaandam 15 nights Dec 2007 / Holland American Zuiderdam TA March 15th 2008 18 nights / Celebrity Century 14 nights T?A Dec 1, 2008

 

177 days at sea

21 cruises

11 cruise lines

T/P, T/A, Hawaii, Central & South America, New Zealand & South Pacific

Booked CELEBRITY CENTURY T/A 15 nights 12/1/08

[Maya-Tucker]

Is this based on facts, & if so, what are they? Or is this just your opinion (or perception)?

 

Well, Maya-Tucker??

 

More common sense. I suggest you obtain a few back issues of each and you will see what I mean.

 

Port Hole is a magazine devoted to the cruise industry and gives equal pages to any cruise line regardless of advertising. Its readers and contributors are all very familiar with the cruise industry.

 

Conde Nast is a travel magazine that is for the entire travel industry and is actually pointed at the upper echelon traveler rather than an entire crossection of the travelling public. It devotes very few pages to the cruise industry and there is a direct correlation of articles on particular cruise lines and their advertising. Some ads are placed to look like articles when in fact they are simply cruise line propoganda. You see that same format each week in your local papers for restaurant reviews.

[Sky Sweet]

He said they were all just beers - one no better than the other...

 

Still, your point about the wine is well taken. Perhaps there IS a difference with the premium label, but it requires discriminating taste to notice it. Do you think that could be the case with cruise lines as well? I think not, but that could just be because I lack the discriminating taste... :p

 

Hi DrewB :)

 

I am that way about wine. Even though I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, my only concern is whether or not it tastes good to me. I could care less about the year it was bottled, or other factors that make some wines worth thousands of dollars a bottle while others are reasonably priced. In fact, it would be a waste of money for someone to give me a very expensive wine because I wouldn't know the difference. At the same time I feel grateful that my lack of sophistication saves me a fortune on wine :)