Would You Take A Cruise in Pirate Attack Areas ??

[Neil Down]

Whilst I am not surprised by the predominant “No” as an answer can I just ask where people would find it not advisable or acceptable to venture. Would you not go to New York because the chances of being knocked down in traffic are high, would you also find it a step too far going to Philadelphia where the crime rate could involve you in something unsavoury or would you avoid London because of the predilection of some youths to stick a knife in you? I would suggest that the answer would be that you would not avoid these spots. The chances of something happening to you in the areas you discussed are, believe it or not, much lower than in the areas I have proposed but the power of the media has imprinted fear in your mind and made you more than hesitant. I have travelled worldwide and been in many situations regarded as unhealthy but would I not have done them knowing what I know now? No and I will say here and now that I have felt more afraid in certain situations in Miami than I ever have around the Horn of Africa.. …..Neil

[Bran8778]

as of today NO!!!!!!!!!

[celle]

Only if I could be armed. :D :cool:

 

And I would count the danger of being harmed by an armed passenger as being greater than the danger of a pirate attack!

[rpjkw11]

With my kind of luck, being hijacked would mean the cruise line charging me extra $$, calling the hijacking an excursion.:D

 

Bob

[rkacruiser]

Having sailed on the Amsterdam while she was in some of the potential problem areas and seeing how the crew prepare to respond to an attack, I have much confidence that they would be able to repel any evil-doers that might try to attack the ship. The safety of the ship, passengers, and crew is the number one job of any ship's master.

 

I am willing to depend upon the travel warnings of the U. S. State Department. If they say that an area is too dangerous, then I will heed those warnings. I know that the cruise lines do.

[gizmo]

Nope, not me. :eek:

[CDRMark]

I would not be deterred from cruising in an area where there was pirate activity if I really wanted to go there.

That said, the area under discussion is not one. Got that tee shirt a while ago.

Cheers

Mark

[caber]

According to the map there is pirate activity in the Caribbean. Has that put anyone off?

 

You can run into trouble anywhere. Who would avoid New York or London?

 

We in Glasgow had an unsuccessful terrorist attack last year.

[J&K08]

Whilst I am not surprised by the predominant “No” as an answer can I just ask where people would find it not advisable or acceptable to venture. Would you not go to New York because the chances of being knocked down in traffic are high, would you also find it a step too far going to Philadelphia where the crime rate could involve you in something unsavoury or would you avoid London because of the predilection of some youths to stick a knife in you? I would suggest that the answer would be that you would not avoid these spots. The chances of something happening to you in the areas you discussed are, believe it or not, much lower than in the areas I have proposed but the power of the media has imprinted fear in your mind and made you more than hesitant. I have travelled worldwide and been in many situations regarded as unhealthy but would I not have done them knowing what I know now? No and I will say here and now that I have felt more afraid in certain situations in Miami than I ever have around the Horn of Africa.. …..Neil

 

You are of course equating piracy/terrorism to an armed robbery. The armed robbers will take your money and leave in a few seconds if you cooperate. Whereas, if the pirates are successful in boarding the ship they will keep you for a very long time in an attempt to ransom the ship and you.

Plus, I will say the average armed robber in a major city is definitely more educated than your average Somali pirate. In addition, most of us don't have a language issue when it comes to talking to the average armed robber.

I have yet to see armed robbers in the US/UK carry AK-47s and RPGs. Not to mention you are more likely to be a victim of a crime in the UK then you are in the US (according to Nationmaster.com). The lack of desire to travel to these areas does not have much to do with media driven fear (for me) as it does the lawlessness of the area. You are dealing with few naval ships/aircraft protecting you in a large area with numerous pirate ships brazen enough to attempt to capture a cruise ship. With each success breeds more pirates which produces more pirate boats, which produce more incidents of piracy, which increases the frequency of the attacks. Simply looking at a map about piracy in the world you can say, "See there is piracy in the Caribbean and the Pacific too!" Well you don't hear of major ships being captured and held for ransom as well as a general lack of interest in ending said piracy.

I think what it ultimately comes down to is this: Is the reward of visiting the area worth the risk of traveling in the area? Most people are going to say, “No.” I have not seen the odds of being a victim of piracy in the Gulf of Aden compared to the odds of being a victim of armed robbery but I imagine per capita it is slightly higher in the Gulf of Aden. Especially when you are talking about only 20,000 ships a year plying those waters compared to the hundreds of thousands to millions of people in a large urban area.

If you feel safe, by all means continue to travel those waters if you feel the rewards outweigh the risks. Insinuating people are ridiculous because they don’t feel the rewards outweigh the risks is pretty insulting. Especially given the fact the vast majority of people don’t want to weigh the risks/rewards. I mean my idea of fun is not traveling through an active war zone wondering if the pirates will attack during the day or the night. Also wondering if they are going to put a few holes in the boat with their AKs or RPGs. It is not something I want to even have remotely in the back of my mind. I will gladly give up my share of cruise routes through the area to you. The only concerns I want to have is how fat I am going to get on the cruise. :eek: :D :cool:

And I would count the danger of being harmed by an armed passenger as being greater than the danger of a pirate attack!

 

I would agree with you if the person were not trained in the use of weapons. Especially if you consider the fact the pirates are not trained in weapons and most are uneducated with very little value for life.

 

Just my two pence worth. :D

[sail7seas]

Thank for your excellent post, J&K08.

 

[Neil Down]

Dear J&K08,

I am sorry if you felt that I was saying “people are ridiculous because they don’t feel the rewards outweigh the risks is pretty insulting” because that was not my aim. What I am saying that there is often a large amount of paranoia after incidents have been reported and that, as history will bear out, the main fears were groundless. If you kowtow to the machinations of the lawless then you only promote their cause and I believe, as someone else pointed out, that to change your ways is to submit to their lawlessness. I for one will never do that because I feel that by doing it I am letting the society in which we live down. I am not saying that you must all do as I do I am purely promoting the principles by which I live and I do not denigrate anyone who wants to think or act differently. …..Neil

[Mark]

I would....providing the cruise line provided me with kevlar vest and helmet along with 9mm pistol, M16 plenty of ammo and hand grenades.

 

If you are going to sale into pirate territory, well the least they can do is make sure you are armed to defend your balcony from intruders!

 

It is interesting how these pirates like to take ships that they know have no arms and are totally defenseless.:cool:

[celle]

I would....providing the cruise line provided me with kevlar vest and helmet along with 9mm pistol, M16 plenty of ammo and hand grenades.

 

If you are going to sale into pirate territory, well the least they can do is make sure you are armed to defend your balcony from intruders!

 

You are joking, right? I'm sure you must be!

 

To do what you suggest, the cruise line would have to require formal documentation showing you had received full training in the use of these weapons - in a capacity such as SWAT, etc.

 

Otherwise, to supply people with weapons would be totally irresponsible. I stand by my previous comment that I would fear more danger from an armed passenger than from a pirate attack. I can just imagine the damage caused by a hyped up redneck over-reacting to a perceived attack.

 

I think the drills practised by cruise ships already include a scenario where the ship is under potential attack by pirates. Train a couple of the crew with weapons by all means, but heaven forbid that we should arm the passengers!

[Mark]

Of course I am joking...I was thinking of an old All in the Family show when Archie Bunker decided that the way to keep airliners from being hijacked was to issue each passenger a revolver when getting on the jet and collecting them at the end of the flight! LOL

 

I do agree with your statement about the crew. Most of the crews seem to be made up of officers from some European navy and crew from some military like the Philippines Navy or Army...maybe cruise ships should all have highly trained and armed SWAT teams made up of select officers and crew who can respond to any threats from pirates, hijackers or terrorists!

[greatam]

It is interesting how these pirates like to take ships that they know have no arms and are totally defenseless.:cool:

 

In addition, the pirates capture ships that have FEW crew and NO passengers. The tanker only had a total of 25 people on board.

 

While a cruise ship could possibly bring a LARGE ransom to a group of pirates, do you really think your average cruise ship-pax and crew-is going to be easily taken over by a group of pirates????

 

No, it will be a fight-even if the pirates have guns and RPG's. At some point, the pirates have to actually board the ship. Not easy to do if you are encumbered by guns, ammo, etc. and have 2-3000 people trying to prevent you from boarding.

 

Think Richard Reid and the hapless fellow that tried to open the door to the plane a few months ago. The passengers and crew fought back and overpowered the bad guys. Most likely exactly what would happen if pirates tried to take over a cruise ship.

[Neil Down]

Of course I am joking...I was thinking of an old All in the Family show when Archie Bunker decided that the way to keep airliners from being hijacked was to issue each passenger a revolver when getting on the jet and collecting them at the end of the flight! LOL

 

I do agree with your statement about the crew. Most of the crews seem to be made up of officers from some European navy and crew from some military like the Philippines Navy or Army...maybe cruise ships should all have highly trained and armed SWAT teams made up of select officers and crew who can respond to any threats from pirates, hijackers or terrorists!

 

Your assumption seems to be that this is not already in place and that there is no plan for evasion and of course a invention like an eardrum bursting audio gun would be a big help too. Billions of dollars worth of ships are out there constantly facing all manner of threat. Can you see the bean counters sleeping easy if there was no cover? Great subject this and I bet we haven't convinced anyone to change their mind and dip a toe into the water. Warm thoughts.... Neil

[fun*n*sun]

Sometimes we fear things that the media plays up like terrorism, more than things that are likely to happen to us: car accidents, being hit by lightning, falling down in your own home. However, there was yet another attempted take over of a cruise ship

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24749094-663,00.html and the piracy rate on large vessels off Somolia, not small as in the Carribean, is rising, so it is something to take into consideration I imagine. For me in the risk/ benefit analysis I'd probably choose to cruise elsewhere for now. Why add the small but rising risk of being hijacked unless it's something very important to you?

 

I don't think that the aim of these attacks is to limit shipping in the area, they would probably prefer more ships to hijack, the aim appears to be money. Curbing the number of ships in the area doesn't help them "win" it deprives them of the ability to make money. Hopefully they will be caught or piracy will be made too difficult for them to continue. When they are rewarded with the continuation of rich targets the piracy is likely to continue and become more prevalent.

[krystalkruzer]

The problem is that people are focused on media sensationalism rather than the actual facts. How many on this thread are aware of current pirate attacks in the Caribbean?

 

Hsve not seen anything on any news channel about attacks in the Caribbean. I do not think it will happen there because - 1)too many US citizens there,2) too much $$$ at stake for the cruise lines and the Caribbean countries and the Caribbean is too close to the US.

[J&K08]

You are joking, right? I'm sure you must be!

 

To do what you suggest, the cruise line would have to require formal documentation showing you had received full training in the use of these weapons - in a capacity such as SWAT, etc.

 

Otherwise, to supply people with weapons would be totally irresponsible. I stand by my previous comment that I would fear more danger from an armed passenger than from a pirate attack. I can just imagine the damage caused by a hyped up redneck over-reacting to a perceived attack.

 

I think the drills practised by cruise ships already include a scenario where the ship is under potential attack by pirates. Train a couple of the crew with weapons by all means, but heaven forbid that we should arm the passengers!

 

Nice stereotyping to say anyone who is trained to use a weapon or likes guns is a "hyped up redneck." I guess John Kerry was a hyped up redneck when he donned hunting apparel, a shotgun, and went hunting. Normal people do enjoy hunting, skeet shooting, and target shooting.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461068,00.html

 

I would trust some hyped up rednecks with weapons over some under trained security guards with water hoses and a sound weapon. How long do you think the security guards are going to hose down a pirate ship with

a fire hose when the pirate ship is shooting AK-47s and RPGs at them? Also, the wonderful sound weapon can be defeated by wearing ear protection. I believe the sound weapon hits a level of 150 decibels which is only slightly higher than a gunshot (140 decibels) and a jet engine (120 decibels). As a hyped up redneck I know the ear protection I use is not very sophisticated and they do a wonderful job of muting the sounds of the gunshots. Even the uneducated Somali pirates will eventually learn and adjust their tactics.

 

There are approximately 20,000 ships that sail through those waters. With 100 attacks and 40 successful hijackings it breaks down to a ratio of an attack of 1 per 200 ships and successful hijackings of 1 per 500 ships. Those ratios will start to get even worse with the success of these attacks. It is only a matter of time before they successfully hijacks a cruise ship.

 

It is only a matter of time before the insurance companies demand the ships either place armed guards on them, require them to be escorted by contractor ships, or require them to have a military escort. Otherwise the insurance companies will cancel the policies on the ships sailing those waters. Best way to solve the problem is to eliminate their ability to capture ships.

 

It is a simple problem to solve. Nobody has the political will to do something about it because someone like Christiane Amanpour will make whoever tries to solve the problem as the bad guy. She will make them look like a big bully picking on some poor peasants. In the immortal words from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" :D

[ladycaveat]

Hum . . . very hard decision . . . do I cruise to where pirates may use my cruise ship as target practice or the Caribbean with it blue skies, crystal clear water and beaches to die for. Well, I really do hate all the "Please buy my beads or come in and see what beautiful things I have for you." But . . . I sort of would rather that than hearing the Captain come on telling the passengers to "Go inside and keep down." Yeah, it's a hard decision . . . think I'll stick with the Caribbean . . . at least for now.

[dforeigner]

Hsve not seen anything on any news channel about attacks in the Caribbean. I do not think it will happen there because - 1)too many US citizens there,2) too much $$$ at stake for the cruise lines and the Caribbean countries and the Caribbean is too close to the US.

 

It has happened but it was just an attack and the media never released it. It may be due to the fact that most people cruise the Caribbean and the cruise industry did not want the media ruining their business.

 

What does being a US citizen have to do with whether a pirate will attack a cruise ship? Most of the people that were on the cruise that was attacked off the coast of Africa were Americans. If these idiot pirates have attacked (or attempted to attack) US warships out at sea, why do you think they would not attack a cruise ship that may have Americans on board.

[celle]

Nice stereotyping to say anyone who is trained to use a weapon or likes guns is a "hyped up redneck." I guess John Kerry was a hyped up redneck when he donned hunting apparel, a shotgun, and went hunting. Normal people do enjoy hunting, skeet shooting, and target shooting.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461068,00.html

 

I would trust some hyped up rednecks with weapons over some under trained security guards with water hoses and a sound weapon. How long do you think the security guards are going to hose down a pirate ship with

a fire hose when the pirate ship is shooting AK-47s and RPGs at them? Also, the wonderful sound weapon can be defeated by wearing ear protection. I believe the sound weapon hits a level of 150 decibels which is only slightly higher than a gunshot (140 decibels) and a jet engine (120 decibels). As a hyped up redneck I know the ear protection I use is not very sophisticated and they do a wonderful job of muting the sounds of the gunshots. Even the uneducated Somali pirates will eventually learn and adjust their tactics.

 

There are approximately 20,000 ships that sail through those waters. With 100 attacks and 40 successful hijackings it breaks down to a ratio of an attack of 1 per 200 ships and successful hijackings of 1 per 500 ships. Those ratios will start to get even worse with the success of these attacks. It is only a matter of time before they successfully hijacks a cruise ship.

 

It is only a matter of time before the insurance companies demand the ships either place armed guards on them, require them to be escorted by contractor ships, or require them to have a military escort. Otherwise the insurance companies will cancel the policies on the ships sailing those waters. Best way to solve the problem is to eliminate their ability to capture ships.

 

It is a simple problem to solve. Nobody has the political will to do something about it because someone like Christiane Amanpour will make whoever tries to solve the problem as the bad guy. She will make them look like a big bully picking on some poor peasants. In the immortal words from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" :D

 

Try reading my post again. I did not call anyone who is trained to use a weapon or who likes guns "a hyped up redneck." Quite the opposite! I said that a cruise line would have to ask for proof of certification in the use of weapons (such as for a SWAT team) and that the indiscriminate issuing of guns to passengers could lead to danger.

 

I'm not against people using weapons for hunting. I just don't want those same hunters in possession of their weapons on any cruise ship I am aboard.

 

And talking of hyped up characters, what about those 2 guys who shot and killed each other at a shopping centre because their wives were having a fight? That's the sort of person I was thinking of, and the sort of person I am totally against allowing to be in charge of a weapon.

[fun*n*sun]

I would certainly prefer having a law abiding citizen trained in fire arm use on a cruise with me than one of those pirates, and if pirates attacked I'm betting a lot of people would be rushing to that persons room for protection. Law abiding citizens who have conceal carry permits are not the ones who cause problems.

[celle]

I would certainly prefer having a law abiding citizen trained in fire arm use on a cruise with me than one of those pirates, and if pirates attacked I'm betting a lot of people would be rushing to that persons room for protection. Law abiding citizens who have conceal carry permits are not the ones who cause problems.

 

Yes, and so would I. But that law abiding citizen (citizen of where?) should not be a passenger.

 

What I am saying is: How would you plan to ensure that the passengers carrying arms were "law abiding citizens trained in firearm use"?

 

The US citizens' "right to bear arms" does not extend outside of the US and does not apply on any cruise ship.

 

And I do not want passengers to be allowed to carry any sort of weapon aboard. Ye gods! Add a little alcohol to the mix and you have the potential for tragedy. There are enough drunken fools on board some cruises without adding weapons to their act.

 

As for "rushing to that person's room for protection" - no.

First I'd have to know that person.

Second, I'd have to know that person had a gun.

Third, I'd have to know that he/ she was formally trained in its use.

Fourth, one person with a hand gun is unlikely to be able to stop a pirate with an AK47.

 

I'll take my chances that the precautions taken by the cruise ships are adequate and prefer that any time, rather than the prospect of some "hero" passenger rushing around with his hand gun!

[J&K08]

Yes, and so would I. But that law abiding citizen (citizen of where?) should not be a passenger.

 

What I am saying is: How would you plan to ensure that the passengers carrying arms were "law abiding citizens trained in firearm use"?

 

The US citizens' "right to bear arms" does not extend outside of the US and does not apply on any cruise ship.

 

And I do not want passengers to be allowed to carry any sort of weapon aboard. Ye gods! Add a little alcohol to the mix and you have the potential for tragedy. There are enough drunken fools on board some cruises without adding weapons to their act.

 

As for "rushing to that person's room for protection" - no.

First I'd have to know that person.

Second, I'd have to know that person had a gun.

Third, I'd have to know that he/ she was formally trained in its use.

Fourth, one person with a hand gun is unlikely to be able to stop a pirate with an AK47.

 

I'll take my chances that the precautions taken by the cruise ships are adequate and prefer that any time, rather than the prospect of some "hero" passenger rushing around with his hand gun!

 

I can get into statistics which clearly point that in areas where concealed weapon permits are more prevalent crime per capita is significantly lower than in areas where guns are frowned upon. I can also point out that most states have laws against carrying firearms, even with permits, into drinking establishments. In the eight years I have been in my career I have come across many people with conceal carry permits and they are the most responsible citizens of any around. Police officers in major cities have been protecting themselves with pistols against AK47s for a long time and are on the winning end of almost all of those encounters.

And you are correct the US Constitution does not apply to international waters but as far as I know there is no international law against carrying a concealed weapon or against openly carrying weapons in international waters. All this is moot point because the cruise ships do not allow weapons onboard which was pretty much the point I was making. I will not even go into the areas because I cannot carry a weapon to protect myself and I believe I am better able to protect myself against pirates than some rent-a-cops with fire hoses and a sound weapon which can easily be defeated by wearing ear protection.

On an interesting note, the US Treasury Department has tracked the money to Dubai and the money men take a huge cut before disseminating the funds to the pirates. I wonder if that will change now that a Saudi oil tanker or are the Saudis happy the tanker was hijacked so they can raise the price of oil? I guess if more oil tankers get hijacked we will find out.

I could go on and on about it but I am not here to get into a political debate. My idea of a vacation has nothing remotely to do with traveling in a lawless area with the threat hijackings and kidnappings. I will be happy to travel the safe waters of the Atlantic, the Caribbean, and the Pacific and avoid hostile areas. I choose not to risk being a contributor to the pirates salary. Good luck if you choose to travel those waters and I will pray for safe passage for all who travel through that "media hyped" area. My cruising is about fun in the sun and my only concerns are trying not to eat too much. :cool: :D