Thank You Veterans

[gkm]

I also want to say thank you. I come from a family who have served and volunteered and the most important thing to us is the freedom we have. We squabble and fuss but don't mess with us. We're proud to be Americans and we thank our servicemen who protect us and keep us free. I pray for you each and every day, and thank you for what you have accomplished in the past and for protection against those that wish to harm all of us today. We are proud of each and every one of you.

 

Thank you!

 

Garry

[CGAGE]

Thanks from my family as well...we live in the greatest country in the world!!!

We're all very fortunate!

The Gages...Carrie, Tim and our dear daughter Griffin!

[benjamins]

Benjamins, it's those vets and those currently serving in the military who continue represent and fight for the democratic principals spawned in the birth of our nation and our independent status. The people of our nation are very blessed with the rights of a democracy, and it seems very fitting to be especially thankful for those men and women who serve our military on the day of the anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

 

There are plenty of pluralistic countries in the world. I'm going to use my freedom here for a bit of dissent. I think patriotism is over the top, I truly think that the 4th of July is a celebration of something that was revolutionary in its time but has little to do with today's wars. I think, while most vets are men and women of honor, most have sacraficed way too much for questionable reasons. I believe most of the wars the U.S. fights is for advantage or global chess (as in the cold war period), and I'm disturbed by how easily and often the United States goes to war. The United States is a great country, and like other great countries, it has a lot to show the world by example, but it also have a lot to learn. I'm not particularly patriotic, and nationalism and jingoism and cultural I'm better than you sentiments turn me off, wherever they come from.

 

Happy Birthday to this young country, and I hope the current military personnel come home soon and out of the hell of war that they are in, and that this country can actually go 20 or so years without getting into a war with another country. I absolutely abhor war.

[hdawson]

Benjamins. I would differ with your contentions that American wars are for advantage. From this vet, believe me there is no advantage in war. Actually my take is that in most all cases of US involvements have been to insure others to have the right of self determination. Korea, all of Europe, Vietnam (in the beginning). The Pacific war of course was for our own interest as is Afghanistan. We've gotten no advantage out of Bosnia. What advantage was there in the 100,000s dead from WWII? How many potential scientists, doctors, brilliant minds and great artists were lost? No, there is no self serving advantage in war. For good or bad, the legacy of the only remaining super power, goes a great and heavy responsibility. I for one am very proud of how we've accepted that responsibility.

And as why celebrate the vets on July 4th? Where might we be if not for the vets of our brand new army and navy fighting at Bunker Hill, Brooklyn, Trenton and Yorktown? God bless those that have served to give us all the right of desent among other libertys. BTW. Nobody abhors war more than the troops.

[newmexicoNita]

There are plenty of pluralistic countries in the world. I'm going to use my freedom here for a bit of dissent. I think patriotism is over the top, I truly think that the 4th of July is a celebration of something that was revolutionary in its time but has little to do with today's wars. I think, while most vets are men and women of honor, most have sacraficed way too much for questionable reasons. I believe most of the wars the U.S. fights is for advantage or global chess (as in the cold war period), and I'm disturbed by how easily and often the United States goes to war. The United States is a great country, and like other great countries, it has a lot to show the world by example, but it also have a lot to learn. I'm not particularly patriotic, and nationalism and jingoism and cultural I'm better than you sentiments turn me off, wherever they come from.

 

Happy Birthday to this young country, and I hope the current military personnel come home soon and out of the hell of war that they are in, and that this country can actually go 20 or so years without getting into a war with another country. I absolutely abhor war.

I am sure this thread will be pulled before you read this, but in the event this is not the case, I am assuming you are very young and do not understand what our vets have been through starting with those still living who fought in the 1st and 2nd world war, those who served in Korea and Nam plus the smaller conflicts helping the little guy. More recently our men and women have fought for freedom in Desert Storm and now. If they had not served, you would not be speaking freely nor would you be able to cruise on Celebrity or NCL or whatever line and feel somewhat free. If it wasn't for those before us we may not be a capitolistic society where we are able to work and earn what we deserve, not what the government says we can. Again, thanks GIs, most of us do appreciate what you have sacraficed for us!!!

[benjamins]

As a Vietnam Veteran I am very pleased that we now appreciate what our service men do for us daily, something that did not occur in my day.

 

It was an extreme and ugly mob reaction. It was inexcusable, disgraceful, dispicable, and extremely disrespectful and unappreciative of your sacrifices manner.

 

 

Were it not for them we would not be able to cruise freely through out the world. Please remember that terrorist did take one cruise ship in the Med. years ago and killed some passengers they thought were Jewish. Our service men help prevent this from happening today by taking the fight to them. I for one am willing trade increased security screening for being safe while at sea. We all salute our service men on this fourth of July.

 

 

Not always, but often terrorism occurs when a group feels they are impotent. When a culture is defeated. There are few cultures that come out victorious in wars that produce a dominant culture that resort to these means. There were circumstances that led to these extremes. I don't believe we are doing anything different by fighting abroad. We are always fighting on foreign soil, Americans would be very reluctant to be at war if bombs dropped on Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York. If foreign troops patrolled our streets. If we really had to deal with a war and all of its horror rather than watch it on TV and look at images of videos and photos of it. Only the servicemen experience it, not most of the U.S. population.

 

I think there will be more instances of terror, and I think the wars add to more people from their wounded psychological base joining in with others to fight off what they think is a crusading force of Western countries. It's been this way for years, and sending people to war exacerbates the situation, and we may feel the results of this years from now. We may be creating more bin Ladin types with what we claim is a response to their sickness (which they claim is a response to what is sacred to them being desecrated by us) with what they think is a force that is hell bent on controlling their lands, cultures, and societies. The clash of cultures is hundreds of years old, nothing happened a few years ago was anyone starting anything. It's an old war that doesn't end with some regime being overthrown.

 

There were no significant members of al Qaeda coming from Iraq. Now there's the Jordanian, al Zaqawri leading anti U.S. forces in terror tactics in Iraq. Whoever heard of al Zaqawri before this war? And why are so many what we call terrorists from U.S. ally countries? Most of the principal leaders of these movements are Pakistani, Saudi Arabian, Jordanian or Egyptian. None that I can think of are Iranian, Iraqi, or Syrian. I think it is possible that someone may emerge out of one of these latest wars that may plan and execute strikes against the United States on U.S. soil. The FBI may stop many of their plans, and the FBI does an admirable job. But they can't catch all of them.

[newmexicoNita]

Of course they (FBI) can't catch all of them, but they are doing the best they can and I am one who will gladly take off my shoes, or whatever else is necessary to abide by the security policies: if we can stop even 10% of the terrorist that will help some. Now I am going to go watch the Boston Pops and the Beach boys in DC. You do whatever!!!! I will still cry when they play America the Beautiful and It's a Grand Old Flag and I will cheer when we hear any song that refers to Kicking the terrorist Butts!!!

[benjamins]

I am sure this thread will be pulled before you read this, but in the event this is not the case, I am assuming you are very young and do not understand what our vets have been through starting with those still living who fought in the 1st and 2nd world war, those who served in Korea and Nam plus the smaller conflicts helping the little guy. More recently our men and women have fought for freedom in Desert Storm and now. If they had not served, you would not be speaking freely nor would you be able to cruise on Celebrity or NCL or whatever line and feel somewhat free. If it wasn't for those before us we may not be a capitolistic society where we are able to work and earn what we deserve, not what the government says we can. Again, thanks GIs, most of us do appreciate what you have sacraficed for us!!!

 

 

You assume wrong. I'm 46, and have relatives who have fought in wars. I know people who came back from Viet Nam and freaked out everytime they heard a car backfire. My father served in Korea and is 78 years old and doesn't support most of our wars. Martin Luther King did not support the war in Viet Nam. I think our involvement in WWII was necessary. There was a real threat to the world from a very powerful country. Desert Storm was a bully invading a rich country that didn't have much of a miltary. For the most part, Iraq has shown it can win any war. Didn't win against Iran, and Saddam Hussein was nothing more than a 2 bit tyrant, he was easily defeated in Desert Storm. He was a nothing that we blew out of proportion to be something, and the stupid thing about it is that the United States supported him for years. What you say makes no sense. If we didn't go to war with Iraq in Desert Storm it would not impact our freedom in any way.

 

You should be pleased with my dissent. I don't care whether you agree with me or not, I'm stating an opinion. And it is an opinion that is not baised, not my country right or wrong. I think nations are into pushing propaganda to support their objectives and the population should question everything if they live in a pluralistic society like us. That is what makes the U.S. powerful, but it isn't powerful if we all buy the company line that all of these wars are about freedom. In my analysis, very few of them are.

[hdawson]

benjamins. There will always be desenters in any society. If memory serves me well, I think there was even one congressman that voted against the declaration of war on Dec 8th, 1941. If only we had observed Yamamoto/Nagumo's fleet on Dec 6th and acted. Fortunately the carriers were at sea and some capitol ships had been moved to the Atlantic. Of course there would have been those that would have criticized us for taking preemptive action.

[benjamins]

I will cheer when we hear any song that refers to Kicking the terrorist Butts!!!

 

I'm not into kicking anyone's butt. I'm not into revenge. These are cultures and fellow human beings we are talking about. I want to get to the root of terrorism and the root of conflict and evolve to a place where maybe some of our grandchildren's grandchildren won't fight in an offshoot of this conflict.

[newmexicoNita]

I'm not into kicking anyone's butt. I'm not into revenge. These are cultures and fellow human beings we are talking about. I want to get to the root of terrorism and the root of conflict and evolve to a place where maybe some of our grandchildren's grandchildren won't fight in an offshoot of this conflict.

you are very young in thought if not age and yes, it would be wonderful if we could live in peace, but if two people can't get along which creates way too much divorce how do you think the world can be expected to live in harmony? We can turn the other creek and watch us get kicked in the butt!! I am not a fighting person, ask my hubby of 47 years, my kids or my friends, but I do stand for what I believe in, I am honest and I say what I think (those who have been here for awhile know that) When I see pictures of my fellow countrymen being beheaded I lose feeling for any terriorist or anyone related to them in anyway. Sorry, but that's is the way it is. I am not a predjudice person, I do not hold grudges and I think of those like Richard Stein who fought for or right to debate this issues. We have friends who are stanch republicans and democrates, we have a Jewish son in law and we live in an area that is about 60% hispanic, we will have a grandson in law in Dec who is hispanic and our neighborhood and church is a mixture of black, white, latin, American Indian and whateaver else. I know of almost none of them that do not support our defending our country and they all including our priest from England that did not sing patriotic songs in church yesterday followed by thanking our service personal for what they have done to keep us free. That is about all I have to say on the subject//////

[benjamins]

benjamins. There will always be desenters in any society. If memory serves me well, I think there was even one congressman that voted against the declaration of war on Dec 8th, 1941. If only we had observed Yamamoto/Nagumo's fleet on Dec 6th and acted. Fortunately the carriers were at sea and some capitol ships had been moved to the Atlantic. Of course there would have been those that would have criticized us for taking preemptive action.

 

I support WW II. I don't support Viet Nam, most of the conflicts in the Southern hemisphere and adventures like Panama and Grenada, the war in Iraq. I thought the war in Afghanistan was to get al Qaeda out of Afghanistan and catch those responsible for the attack in NYC and Washington, but I don't support trying to put in a regime. Would you like Afghanistan to install a regime in the United States?

 

I think there is intelligent dissent that looks at historical patterns in conflict and objectively look at what the warring nations told their people. This isn't an anti-U.S. thing. I think we are very naive if we believe that we go to war for the reason the gov't tells us. Iraq is a great example. Most of what they told us were reasons were false. And I don't believe it is to democratize Iraq and it is about human rights. After Saddam was in power for 30 years? Anyway, if that's the priority the Congo and Sudan have way worse human rights than what was in Iraq and we should go in there and liberate them.

 

It may not be popular here but today's war in Iraq and Afghanistan, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the revolutionary spirit of the budding United States. We are now an empire, like it or not, and we tend to intervene in other countries, and sometimes go against those who want to try a different ideology in an attempt to change conditions in their countries.

[benjamins]

you are very young in thought if not age and yes, it would be wonderful if we could live in peace, but if two people can't get along which creates way too much divorce how do you think the world can be expected to live in harmony?

 

Being bellicose isn't a sign of maturity. Martin Luther King young wasn't young in thought when he criticized the Vietnam war. People take positions, and when someone takes a position opposite yours it is unnecessary to get into anything personal and it would benefit you to stay on topic and discuss what I say, not worry about who I am.

 

I didn't say anything about the world living in harmony. I feel we should work on lowering the divorce rate and we should work at eliminating war.

[Pumbaamd]

The 4th of July has everything to do with vets. Have you been watching the History Channel today with the episodes of the Revolutionary War? All vets from 1776 thru Iraq and Afghanistan deserve credit for protecting our great country. I was an infantry Sgt. in Vietnam in '66-'67 and have recovered from prostate cancer caused by Agent Orange. Check out the first cruise in my signature below. It was from Tacoma to Vung Tau. It was for 21 days. We had one port of call, Okinawa. Otherwise it was 20 days at sea. And, the price was right, didn't cost me a dime.

[cei3]

Thanks, Pumbaa, for helping to defend our country.

[Pumbaamd]

Nita, Hope you and all your family had a nice 4th. Also to you, CEI.

Rick and Deirdra

[hdawson]

Pumbaand. Vietnam, 66 and again in 68 for Tet. Quite an experience. Fortunately, I was not on a ship.

[Ma Bell]

Benjamins,

 

You need to get out your map and do a little studying. You need to really think about what is happening in this world and stop kidding yourself. Unfortunately there are times when force is necessary to make sure that diplomacy will work.

[patrioticgirl]

Benjamins, you choose to dissent, and I applaud you that you have the courage to do so. Remember that the cost of dissenting in some parts of the world would most likely be death....... Oh, how great it is to live in America, land of the free and home of the brave!

One of the greatest privileges of being an American is the right to dissent ... and the right to choose. You choose to dissent, and those who serve in our military willingly volunteer and choose to serve, and do so proudly. No one is dictating what they believe or forcing them to defend the principals they live by, and you can't say this is true in other parts of the world. You want to get to the root of the terrorism and the root of the conflict so that your grandchildren's grandchildren can live in peace, but the truth of the matter is that the root of the conflict goes back long before any attempt at American intervention. Our American soldiers serve our county by attempting to provide positive change in environments where the freedom of choice does not exist. I believe that was one of the main catalysts for the American Revolution, was it not? And its the hope of this change that that drives the patriotic spirit in many who serve in and support our military. Ideally, it's a hope of a change that will result in an assurance that your grandchildren's grandchildren will never have to see the horrid face of war. So, in honor of our American vets, let the fireworks begin!

[newmexicoNita]

The 4th of July has everything to do with vets. Have you been watching the History Channel today with the episodes of the Revolutionary War? All vets from 1776 thru Iraq and Afghanistan deserve credit for protecting our great country. I was an infantry Sgt. in Vietnam in '66-'67 and have recovered from prostate cancer caused by Agent Orange. Check out the first cruise in my signature below. It was from Tacoma to Vung Tau. It was for 21 days. We had one port of call, Okinawa. Otherwise it was 20 days at sea. And, the price was right, didn't cost me a dime.

We just watch the Wash 4th followed by watching our beloved Dodgers win a game; now we will call it a night: Hi to both of you and it is amazing where you can find your friends!!!!

 

Take care and when is your next cruise?

 

Nita and Pat

[Pumbaamd]

Nita and Pat,

We're on the Brilliance 1/2 to Panama and then the Grandeur from Baltimore to NOLA which is a 13 day repo in Nov.'06. Good to hear from you again.

Rick and Deirdra

[benjamins]

Benjamins, you choose to dissent, and I applaud you that you have the courage to do so. Remember that the cost of dissenting in some parts of the world would most likely be death....... Oh, how great it is to live in America, land of the free and home of the brave!

One of the greatest privileges of being an American is the right to dissent ... and the right to choose. You choose to dissent, and those who serve in our military willingly volunteer and choose to serve, and do so proudly. No one is dictating what they believe or forcing them to defend the principals they live by, and you can't say this is true in other parts of the world. You want to get to the root of the terrorism and the root of the conflict so that your grandchildren's grandchildren can live in peace, but the truth of the matter is that the root of the conflict goes back long before any attempt at American intervention. Our American soldiers serve our county by attempting to provide positive change in environments where the freedom of choice does not exist. I believe that was one of the main catalysts for the American Revolution, was it not?

 

Main catalyst for the revolution was to be independent of Britian. To do things our way. That's the revolutionary spirit. I see the 4th as honoring the birth of the nation, flaws and all. This 20th Century world is a lot different than the conditions and world of the 18th Century in world powers. WE are the world power now, not Britian or France or Spain. That's the big difference, IMO, about the "raison d'etre" of that war vs. anything of the past 100 years.

 

Let's make some things very clear. I do not choose to dissent. The reason for what our military is doing currently in Iraq and Afghanistan is debateable. To me they are trying to make these countries more Western, and these countries have a much different history and culture than Western countries do. I choose to look at the consequence of wars and how certain conflicts never really are solved by more armed conflicts. I choose to see that the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan than the CIA supported, turned out to be just as nasty and vicious as the regime the Soviets supported and it was that war where Osama bin Laden formed al Qaeda and aquired so much influence, organization, and power. It's being played over again in Iraq, a country that had nothing to do whatsover with one of the worst terrorist acts in history. And let me make this clear, I am from New York City, born and raised there, worked for a year on the 90th floor of the World Trade Center. I felt sickness when it happened, but chose to control my anger, and think of an effective way to go forward over raw emotion and pride and going out and kicking terrorist "butt" or any other almost adolescent-like response about the big and bad U.S. getting injured. To me it was about learning a lesson, that we are not invincible, that everday things can turn deadly, that people in a metropolis got together to support and assist each other. From those that destroyed these massive buildings, I saw a sick dedication to showing they can hurt the most powerful military power in the world. What was behind this? How did it start? Why the U.S. and not another country? I didn't listen to out president's simplistic reasons that they were jealous of our freedoms, I dug deeper, looking for something that made more sense. I chose to listen to views from various parts of the world, looking for those that are supportive of us, supportive of the terrorist position, and everything in between. I chose to look at what mistakes others that deal with terrorism get into and what was effective, and the different forms that terrorism takes.

 

It is too easy to support war when you are not in the battlefield (the citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq and other places where there are wars are in the battlefield, the citizens of the United Sttaes watch it on TV--crucial difference). There are plenty other countries in the world where one can speak out as I do, the United States is not unique in this respect. I see the United States as any other country and try to be objective about it. I would use the same way of coming to conclusions about any country, Britian, France, Sweden, or numerous other countries where one can speak out and learn alternatives to the official propaganda of the government. Do not take what I say about the U.S. personally or that it is against the military. It isn't. It isn't any particular country, it is how I think we should regard information from ANY country. I think we should have learned long ago how propaganda works and what we can do to get alternative "facts". Why we are fighting our current wars should be hotly debated and by historians, psychologists, and people who represent the wide range of viewpoints about the principal groups of cultures involved in these conflicts, IMO.

 

My mother-in-law, someone who lived in Belgium during the bombings by the ****s and is very grateful to the U.S. for liberating Belgium, thinks that the United States is too in-your-face about our patriotism the past few years. She lives now half of the year in Belgium and half of the year in the U.S. She has issues with both countries and expresses them. I don't agree with everything she says, I agree with some things. I choose not to be so insular and believe that everyone thinks the U.S. is the greatest country in the world (I don't need a greatest country in the world, or any other superlative--it's too subjective) and listen to perspectives from other lands without judgment. It's hard to do, but it is beneficial in seeing yourself or your family or your country in a more realistic manner.

[newmexicoNita]

Just one last thing, do you think if you lived in some of the countries that support terrorism you woud be able to say what you are saying here? We are not a perfect country by anymeans nor are yours views without flaws, but you have the right to them cause you are an American and do you think when we get taken over you will be able to continue voicing them? Do you have any idea how you are playing right into the hands of the terrorists? I do not support all that is going on right now, but I do understand it as do my children, the oldest being about your age and my grand children who are college age also understand. My future grandson in law would be serving right now if he were through college. Any now let's get back to cruising, that is what this board is about!!! NMNita

[patrioticgirl]

Main catalyst for the revolution was to be independent of Britian. To do things our way. That's the revolutionary spirit. I see the 4th as honoring the birth of the nation, flaws and all. This 20th Century world is a lot different than the conditions and world of the 18th Century in world powers. WE are the world power now, not Britian or France or Spain. That's the big difference, IMO, about the "raison d'etre" of that war vs. anything of the past 100 years.

Perhaps a review of your history text from earlier years might be in order. The causes of the American Revolution were much extensive than you suggest; it was not just "wanting to do things our own way". In elementary terms, it was an effort to seek justice in light of the tyrannical acts of the British government. Independence was not the original goal, it was an appeal to seek equality of rights as subjects of the British crown, those who participated in the revolution wanted the same freedoms that those in the mother country possessed. When the appeal for equality went unanswered, further action was the only course of action left to the small groups seeking the liberties they felt were due to them as loyal subjects of the crown. This inequality was the catalyst, and coupled with taxation without representation, ports being closed to necessary goods, the restrictions on assembly , the limitations on possessions of arms, and the mandatory quartering requirements of soldiers in private citizen's homes,all added fuel to the fires of the revolution. And yet, "The American Revolution was essentially a "conservative" movement, fought to conserve the freedoms America had painstakingly developed since the 1620s during the period of British "salutary neglect"fought to conserve the freedoms America had painstakingly developed since the 1620s during the period of British "salutary neglect" -- in reality, a period of laissezfaire government as far as the colonies were concerned. Samuel Eliot Morison has pointed out: "[T]he American Revolution was not fought to obtain freedom, but to preserve the liberties that Americans already had as colonials. Independence was no conscious goal, secretly nurtured in cellar or jungle by bearded conspirators, but a reluctant last resort, to preserve 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'"Samuel Eliot Morison, The Oxford History of the American People (New York: Oxford University Press, 1965), p. 182

In short, the American Revolution's beginning was an effort by a group to eliminate the oppression of the times. And that, BenjaminS is what our soldiers and vets have attempt to do as they serve the U.S. in the world today. They seek liberty and justice for all, no matter the location, and they defend the values upon which our country was founded. And that is why I thank those who volunteer and serve our country so proudly, not only on the 4th of July, but everyday that I live in our great country.

With that, I've said all that I am going to say on the topic. You are entititled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, and the wonderful thing about being a citizen of the United States is that we can differ in our opinions without fear of retribution. As NMNita stated, let's get back to cruising!:)

[benjamins]

Just one last thing, do you think if you lived in some of the countries that support terrorism you woud be able to say what you are saying here? We are not a perfect country by anymeans nor are yours views without flaws, but you have the right to them cause you are an American and do you think when we get taken over you will be able to continue voicing them? Do you have any idea how you are playing right into the hands of the terrorists? I do not support all that is going on right now, but I do understand it as do my children, the oldest being about your age and my grand children who are college age also understand. My future grandson in law would be serving right now if he were through college. Any now let's get back to cruising, that is what this board is about!!! NMNita

 

The terrorism we are fighting which is really directed against al Qaeda and al Qaeda like organizations is stateless. I don't see the relevance in asking me about me saying what I'm saying because I can do this in several Western countries.

 

I feel going to war plays in the hands of the terrorists because it gives them a theater to carry out violence against Americans and people in other countries that support America in the most part. There was no al Zaqawri doing anything against Iraqis until the war began. bin Laden's power consolidated with a war as well, the Soviet-Afghan war. If you don't agree, fine. Doesn't make me wrong or right about outcome of the Iraq war, but there's denying how these characters came into having more power.

 

I think any talk of any of these weak nations taking over America is hyperbolic panicking. They can kill people and destroy buildings, but they can't take over America. They don't even carry out terrorists acts with any regularity (thankfully).

 

Terrorism is defined differently throughout the world. Some in the world feel the United States carries out acts of terror and supports terror on populations. I don't agree but it is an opinion in other areas of the world.

 

I don't support sending troops to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I see no point to Iraq, I want the troops home, or elsewhere. That country has nothing to do with the "war" on terror, IMO. Afghanistan, now, has a similar instability that led to the rise of the Taliban. Only a few areas are relatively stable. As long as certain conditions exist in certian countries, these conditions will lead people to desperation, and some of this will be in the form of terrorist acts commited against other countries. Some terrorists are just separatists, others are committed to getting foreign involvement out of their countries.

 

All I'm asking people to do is examine other perspectives, and I'm asking people in Western countries that are pluralistic to do so, of course not people living in areas where this is not permitted. That, to me, is the essence of freedom--getting to various accounts of the conflict.

 

I didn't start this "Thanks Veterans" thread. And we are discussing cruising on most threads. As far as you are concerned, we just have to disagree on this and you and others know that not everyone agrees that the level of patriotism in the country is healthy or agrees about the "why" of current military involvement. IMO, that's very healthy and speaks well of the country.