Couple removed from Hal Noordam Med Cruise

[SnorkelMoose]

Pipedreams wins the thread :D

[world~citizen]

Pipedreams wins the thread :D

 

He wins every thread. :eek:

[welwyngirl]

I was recently on a HAL cruise where a passenger was taken ill with a suspected heart attack. We spoke with him over breakfast one morning and he said he received excellent care (in Haifa) but he and his wife were both told to pack their bags in case he needed extended treatment. They had to sign a release form to leave the ship. It transpired the Israeli medics thought it best for him to return to the US but didn't think the case was urgent. Since the next plane home was in 4 days and there was only 3 days remaining on the cruise they decided they would like to rejoin the ship rather than wait in a hotel room in Haifa. They had great difficulty in being allowed back on the ship as the ship's doctor thought he would not be in a position to treat him if he was taken ill. They then had to sign every more release forms waiving any rights.

 

I can understand why the ship wouldn't want to take responsibility of sick passengers when facilities to treat them onboard are inadequate. But I would hope they treat those involved with compassion and courtesy.

 

On another note, we were on a cruise from Goa two years ago. It was a new line and new cruise (we thought we would be on the 4th or 5th cruise so all teething problems would be ironed out, however we were actually the first)! We were extremely disappointed with the ship, the cabin and the cruise in general. Most importantly, there was no air conditioning in the cabins (the temperature was in high 30s/low 40s centigrade)! The waiters were bringing our found with perspiration dripping from their faces into the meals and everything was shabby and not as advertised. When we dared to complain to the cruise director and asked her to fax a letter of complaint to our HO on our behalf she came back to say she wanted us to leave the ship! We asked her if she would arrange transport/accommodation but she refused and said she would 'leave us at the port gate'. We were absolute dumbstruck. We were travelling with a relative who had recently been bereaved and were desperate for her not to become upset by all of this. We eventually agreed we would stay on to see if things improved. They actually got worse. We were not the only people complaining but somewhere we were 'scapegoated'. We eventually asked to be let off in Sri Lanka and found our own accommodation and transportation. When we arrived home we wrote to the company and received full compensation and expenses (including our airfares to and fro)! Needless to say the company is no longer in existence! But it is a truly dreadful feeling to be placed in that situation. My husband and I could cope with it but we were so anxious for our sister in law who was on her first cruise since losing her husband. Dreadful!!

[welwyngirl]

Forgot to add the postscript of this!

 

We were on the Balmoral a few weeks ago and the band was also on this ill-fated cruise! They were joking about it and saying how truly awful it was. They told us that the cruise director actually put off a disabled passenger for complaining! They said they had this terrible image of this poor man alone on the quayside in a wheelchair!!

[world~citizen]

 

I can understand why the ship wouldn't want to take responsibility of sick passengers when facilities to treat them onboard are inadequate. But I would hope they treat those involved with compassion and courtesy.

 

Perhaps between the Captain protecting the cruise line and the Doctor protecting himself, the passenger/patient gets caught in the middle.

 

I would have the same hope that you do.

[hammybee]

 

Actually, this incident raises a lot of questions and every one of them interesting. They strike at the heart of the nature of medical care on board ships at sea (not just HAL), the power of the ships Master and the nature of the responsibility of the shipping line for the decisions made by their commanding officers.

 

In the U.S. there are 3-4 levels of trauma hospital care, depending on where. Level 1 is the highest and have surgeons and other medical resources, on call at all times. They are usually, but not always, located in densly populated metropolitan areas/states.

 

Lower levels of trauma centers provide initial care and trauma stabilization and arrange for transfer of the victim to a higher level of trauma care, as appropriate.

 

There are entire huge states in the U.S. that are hours away, by air, from the closest level 1 trauma center.

 

I have no idea how any cruise ship's medical facilities compare to state side trauma levels. It seems reasonable to assume that they are not nor could they be expected to be equivelent to a higher level state side trauma center, given many states do not have adequate funding for such care.

 

In this particular situation, Barry sought onboard medical relief for sniffles and says he recieved an inhaler and subsequently says he had an allergic reaction. The original review claims the MD panicked because the wrong medication had been dosed. That may be true or it may be speculation on the part of this passenger.

 

Maybe this passenger did not disclose other medical problems and medications. Maybe he did and it was overlooked. Or maybe the inhaler was not appropriate for sniffles. Or maybe this passenger had a spontaeous allergic reaction. And maybe the passengers asked for a medical evacuation. Lots of unknowns here.

 

Some of the language used in the CC review and media interview seems dramatic. The transport was not as " elegant" as the lifeboat.....That the cruise ship warned all passengers to be aware of pick pockets in that port.... (a common warning given to all passengers, in all ports , including those in the U.S.)....That they were driven through dirty areas that had holes in windows and "laundry hanging on lines"....

 

That there was no one in port to advocate on their behalf must have been extremely frightening. No doubt these two found themselves a long way from Kansas ( or Newport Beach, for that matter) and were afraid, absolutely understandable.

 

The part that makes me uneasy is the "being forced off the ship". He had the sniffles. He recieved medication. He had an allergic reaction. He was administered a substance that reversed the reaction.

 

And then the captain heading into an @ sea day, between ports, decides to call the local coast guard, stops the ship and forces them off at 7:00 P.M. when most everyone is out and about and potentially inclined to observe the evacuation, as many are prone to do. Again....how exactly does one get forced off a ship, at sea, while pleading to remain onboard?

 

That the incremental expenses associated with this ordeal were not covered by their trip insurance is another can of worms.

 

Needless to say, there is more to this story than we will probably ever know. Regardless, it serves to make us aware that when we are on a cruise ship, any ship, UCLA Medical Center is not just around the bend.

[world~citizen]

...Needless to say, there is more to this story than we will probably ever know. Regardless, it serves to make us aware that when we are on a cruise ship, any ship, UCLA Medical Center is not just around the bend.

 

Sad but true.

 

Smooth sailing...

[Copper10-8]

Not sure where you are going with this. I assume you have information that the aforementioned couple was loaded onto CP 801?

 

Probably not.

 

If it was, I would call it an avon boat too as a non-maritime oriented pax (they don't all have oil barrels in them).

 

As you say (and I agree) we don't know the whole story. That doesn't imply the story is substantially incorrect.

 

It needs to be fleshed out.

 

Smooth sailing to you.

 

Where I'm going with this Mr. Citizen is that all we, as bystanders, know of this incident is what the two involved passengers are reporting, first via a review on Cruise Critic and now via the local news media, five months after it occured. If it hasn't been done so already, there will surely (and I'm not calling you Shirley) be a civil law suit filed over this incident. The fact that both Barry and Deb A are attorneys only increases those odds. Like any big entity facing prospective litigation, HAL is not going to comment on this, probably on the advise of their corporate attorneys, which in return will make them (HAL) look bad because, again, there are more sides to a story. We will not hear the HAL (or Italian Coast Guard, since they, according to the one-liner from HAL via K-Cal News, were the means of transportation from ship to shore that night) until the parties have their day in court.

Based on the descriptives provided by Barry and Deb A, of course you have to feel for them as far as their experiences based on a runny nose and a reaction to an inhaler. Are some details of this incident exaggerated or blown just a tad out of proportion by them? Be the judge. Pointing out 'the bowels of the ship' on a post card on the News, the description of the 'Avon rubber boat', the climbing of the 25 foot sea wall with their luggage, the ride through the Italian version of South Central L.A. I'm still trying to figure out who exactly forced them to go to that clinic, once ashore if there was nothing wrong with Barry by that time?

The bottom line on this is that Noordam's ship doctor apparently reached a conclusion that he could not provide further medical care for Barry if his condition were to worsen. He apparently made the recommendation to Noordam's captain that Barry needed follow up care at the closest land-based medical facility. Anyone familiar enough with HAL knows that medical evacs happen all the time, some here might have witnessed them. Next up was the captain as to where to put Barry ashore based on that recommendation. His options? Look at the map. He could have turned around and head back to Messina. Could he have still made Kusadasi two days later? Don't know. We don't know why the decision was made to make that medevac happen off the coast of Calabria. The next day was a sea day and Noordam would be somewhere in the Med between Italy, and Greece, farther away from land.

Maybe the positive thing that will come out of this all is that it will more than likely force HAL (and other lines) to take a hard look at their medical procedures because, as has been pointed out here, the ship's doctor has a tremendous amount of power in incidents like this and a lot of folks higher up the food chain, including the ship's captain, will rely on that.

[world~citizen]

...Maybe the positive thing that will come out of this all is that it will more than likely force HAL (and other lines) to take a hard look at their medical procedures [/i]because, as has been pointed out here, the ship's doctor has a tremendous amount of power in incidents like this and a lot of folks higher up the food chain, including the ship's captain, will rely on that.]

 

Well, first, thanks for not calling me Shirley. :eek:

 

I suspect HAL and other lines are well aware of the medical procedures and the powers of the Chief Medical Officer and Master on board their ships. Its the PAX that need to take note here.

 

If they do, that may be the positive thing to come out of this, as suggested by Hammy.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[Copper10-8]

Well, first, thanks for not calling me Shirley. :eek:

 

I suspect HAL and other lines are well aware of the medical procedures and the powers of the Chief Medical Officer and Master on board their ships. Its the PAX that need to take note here.

 

If they do, that may be the positive thing to come out of this, as suggested by Hammy.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

 

YW;)

I also suspect they are but revisiting that is never a bad thing

Agreed

Hammy is the top pineapple!

[KCcruisin07]

http://www.truveo.com/Couple-Kicked-Off-Cruise-Ship-After-One-Gets-Sick/id/4287801008

 

The couple was on a Holland America cruise when the husband went to the ship doctor with a cold. He had a reaction to the treatment, but the nurse administered an antidote which worked. The captain made a decision to remove the couple from the ship on a rubber raft after dark.

 

Please view this video for further information. This was aired on KCAL TV.

[serendipity1499]

http://www.truveo.com/Couple-Kicked-Off-Cruise-Ship-After-One-Gets-Sick/id/4287801008

 

The couple was on a Holland America cruise when the husband went to the ship doctor with a cold. He had a reaction to the treatment, but the nurse administered an antidote which worked. The captain made a decision to remove the couple from the ship on a rubber raft after dark.

 

Please view this video for further information. This was aired on KCAL TV.

 

 

There is another thread on page 2 about this..You might want to delete this post if there is still time or ask the moderator to add your post to that thread..

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=945964

 

Betty

[KCcruisin07]

Thanks, I did not know that. I have emailed CC and asked to have the thread removed or combined with the other one that is on page 2.

[OCruisers]

Even if this story turns out to have another side, I will think a long time before I go to a ships doctor.

 

:rolleyes: Hate to say it ... but ... it will certainly also make us think long and hard before going to a doctor on a ship ....

 

:eek: It's one thing (not great) to be left or dropped off in a port if need be ... BUT ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

[hulamoon]

This week has been full of suprises on CC. :eek:

 

I hate to say it but each time I read my insurance policy I imagine that if I get sick on a ship a helicopter magically comes to pick me up and flies me to a hospital.

 

Even though I don't know what happened I wonder if their insurance limited their options.

[world~citizen]

:rolleyes: Hate to say it ... but ... it will certainly also make us think long and hard before going to a doctor on a ship ....

 

:eek: It's one thing (not great) to be left or dropped off in a port if need be ... BUT ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

 

Shrewd observation.

 

If people get the idea that once they go to a ships doctor their power to "choose" is absolutely superseded by the medical officer and/or the master, they may avoid going to the doctor at all, and what a mess that would be. :eek:

 

Lets hope it never comes to that.

 

Smooth sailing...

[world~citizen]

This week has been full of suprises on CC. :eek:

 

I hate to say it but each time I read my insurance policy I imagine that if I get sick on a ship a helicopter magically comes to pick me up and flies me to a hospital.

 

Even though I don't know what happened I wonder if their insurance limited their options.

 

I know what you mean. It would be interesting to know why insurance didn't help out here.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[geocruiser]

Hi,

 

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. One of the people that we were traveling with became very ill. (he was a friend of a friend). This man had heart failure in the middle of the night. The Dr on Noordam and staff were great. They treated him so well. I feel that they save his life. Once we docked in Dommica he was transported to the hospital. I went with the sick man and his friend to the hospital. Hal's port agent met us there. He was great and such a help. What a kind man. We also called the local priest (our other friend not the one who was sick, is a priest) We thought we could use the extra help from him. He came with in 10 minutes. This priest was a blessing. The hospital was not like back home. BUT they put him intensive care. He did recover and his family came to get him. I can't begin to tell you how much help HAL doctor and nursers and the front desk were. One of the nurses event went to the hospital to check on the man before the ship left port. At the hospital all the staff were very nice and gave him good care from what I could see.

 

Maria

[world~citizen]

Hi,

 

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. One of the people that we were traveling with became very ill. (he was a friend of a friend). This man had heart failure in the middle of the night. The Dr on Noordam and staff were great. They treated him so well. I feel that they save his life. Once we docked in Dommica he was transported to the hospital. I went with the sick man and his friend to the hospital. Hal's port agent met us there. He was great and such a help. What a kind man. We also called the local priest (our other friend not the one who was sick, is a priest) We thought we could use the extra help from him. He came with in 10 minutes. This priest was a blessing. The hospital was not like back home. BUT they put him intensive care. He did recover and his family came to get him. I can't begin to tell you how much help HAL doctor and nursers and the front desk were. One of the nurses event went to the hospital to check on the man before the ship left port. At the hospital all the staff were very nice and gave him good care from what I could see.

 

Maria

 

I suppose that is how we all hope every medical emergency would be handled.

 

Wonderful that things worked out.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[MadManOfBethesda]

It would be interesting to know why insurance didn't help out here.

 

Well, this would be purely a guess, but since the passenger stated that he wasn't ill but was put off the ship because the doctor and the captain were concerned that he "might" develop medical problems, I would surmise that the insurance would not kick in because he wasn't ill and he didn't require medical treatment in Italy.

 

I suppose that just being asked (or ordered) to leave the ship is not a "covered event."

 

Again, this is just a guess based on the passenger's description of what transpired.

[jtl513]

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. ...

Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste ... like "malpractice"??

[world~citizen]

Well, this would be purely a guess, but since the passenger stated that he wasn't ill but was put off the ship because the doctor and the captain were concerned that he "might" develop medical problems, I would surmise that the insurance would not kick in because he wasn't ill and he didn't require medical treatment in Italy.

 

I suppose that just being asked (or ordered) to leave the ship is not a "covered event."

 

Again, this is just a guess based on the passenger's description of what transpired.

 

 

Sounds plausible.

 

So, is it possible that the way things work now, a cruise line can place you in financial distress over a non-medical emergency that you cannot insure yourself against?

 

Jeeze.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[world~citizen]

Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste!

 

Not knowing the details, we cannot rule anything out.

 

All we can do is speculate. That is a possibility.

 

I suppose as has been said earlier, we will probably never know the whole truth of the matter, and more is the pity.

 

Smooth sailing...

[JerseyJaguar]

Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste ... like "malpractice"??

Or, it could mean that the original couple has not been completely truthful about what happened to them.

[mamaofami]

We'll never really know the whole story and that's too bad.

Another possibility, is that being lawyers, one or both of them threatened or mentioned a law suit and the doctor wanted them off the ship ASAP.