Couple removed from Hal Noordam Med Cruise

[Arwen]

I watched the video and the passenger's account is truly frightening.

 

But like others have said, we don't know HAL's side of the story.

 

Perhaps this man was vocal about threatening a lawsuit shortly after the medical error occurred. Did he verbally or physically threaten staff afterwards?

 

Why would any cruise line make a truly ill passenger carry their own luggage and do any climbing to disembark to get onto a Coast Guard Boat and without attendant medical personnel, Italian, or otherwise?

 

I witnessed an at sea evacuation on our first cruise to Alaska and it was executed by the Canadian Coast Guard. Yes, they do have to disembark the passenger at the A deck level (the TV reporter made the disembarkation appear really awful!, even pointing out on a cruise ship photo where the passenger had to get off ---like he was going to drop off into the sea!).

 

The Amsterdam, in our case, had to slow down to allow the coast guard vessel to pull up alongside. It wasn't a very big or impressive looking watercraft either. The ill passenger was taken off by stretcher and it appeared that she was being tended to by medical personnel.

 

In this case 2+2 does not equal 4. Something has been left out of this story.

 

Of course, it is possible that whatever medical error was made caused everyone from the doctor, to the RN, to the captain to "panic" and commit an act that compromised safety of the two cruise passengers. If that is the case, the facts will come out at trial. If HAL is guilty they will be quietly and quickly settle out of court.

[hammybee]

 

Perhaps this man was vocal about threatening a lawsuit shortly after the medical error occurred. Did he verbally or physically threaten staff afterwards?

 

Of course, it is possible that whatever medical error was made caused everyone from the doctor, to the RN, to the captain to "panic" and commit an act that compromised safety of the two cruise passengers.

 

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

[jtl513]

In this case 2+2 does not equal 4. Something has been left out of this story.

You've got that right! I don't believe for a second that the couple is telling the whole truth.

If that is the case, the facts will come out at trial. If HAL is guilty they will be quietly and quickly settle out of court.

Unfortunately, it will probably never go to trial either way. It is usually better for a corporation to keep such disputes out of the news by settling out of court, even when they are entirely correct in their actions.

[Copper10-8]

...... ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

 

"It’s about 5:30 in the evening, you’re napping on the NOORDAM ( a 5-star cruise ship of Holland America) after a long walking tour through Toaramina, a hill top town in Southern Italy. An hour later you are being thrown off the ship, into the Mediterranean."

 

The 'middle of the night' was actually around 6:30 PM during the month of September in the eastern Med. The 'rubber raft', according to the only statement by HAL to News Channel KCAL-9, was a RHIB (a Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat) a water craft used by the majority of the world's navies as a rescue, transport or Patrol boat in open waters.

[mamaofami]

Unfortunately, it will probably never go to trial either way. It is usually better for a corporation to keep such disputes out of the news by settling out of court, even when they are entirely correct in their actions.

 

That's probably exactly the way it will be settled and then all parties will sign a confidentiality agreement and that will be that. The whole story will be burried at sea.

[hammybee]

"It’s about 5:30 in the evening, you’re napping on the NOORDAM ( a 5-star cruise ship of Holland America) after a long walking tour through Toaramina, a hill top town in Southern Italy. An hour later you are being thrown off the ship, into the Mediterranean."

 

The 'middle of the night' was actually around 6:30 PM during the month of September in the eastern Med. The 'rubber raft', according to the only statement by HAL to News Channel KCAL-9, was a RHIB (a Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat) a water craft used by the majority of the world's navies as a rescue, transport or Patrol boat in open waters.

 

But Johnnnnn,

 

The boat was not nearly as "elegant" as the tender/life boats, carried by the ship.

 

I am haunted ( well no, not really) by this tale of woe, as described by these two passengers. If you assume things went down, exactly as they portrayed, would you be yapping about being subjected to a neighborhood that had laundry hanging from clothes lines? Is this where the pain and suffering/emotional distress comes into play.

[twinkletoes4445]

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

 

I found out in my late-30's that I was allergic to penicillin. I'd taken it before and had no problems at all (as a child), but when I was given penicillin as an adult to treat an infection, I had a major allergic reaction. I've also had reactions to medicines that I had never had before, so for me, I try and stick with the things that I know I have no problems with, but sometimes that's not possible and an allergic reaction can happen.

[Arwen]

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

 

hammybee....you misunderstood me. I read a previous post that mentioned that the patient had an adverse reaction to the inhalant med? and in then in another post??? maybe (misread it) that possibly wrong drug was given (may have misread that one) Of course, an adverse reaction can occur with any med given at any time and that is no fault of the doctor, nurse, or patient....unless the medical staff failed to ask a patient about known allergies. After having worked as a nurse for a long time, I know only too well that medication errors do occur with greater frequency than most patients know about. Most of these do not end up with serious consequences, thankfully.:rolleyes:

 

Anyways, the video news clip stated that the passenger/patient complained about the manner in which he and his wife were "forced" or taken off the ship and implied it was abrupt, without merit, and then heartlessly plunked into something akin to a "rubber dinghy" :eek: and sent out to sea.

[Boatdrill]

This is one of those incidents where nothing the ship does would please the passenger. The on-board health facilities on the Noordam are limited as is the staff. There are very good hospitals in Italy where they can treat any ailment. You can be sure the Captain was following the best medical advice of his shipboard physician. Failure of the Captain to follow medical advice would be idiotic. The Captain arranged to get these folks ashore as quickly as possible at the nearest port (we have seen similar situations on several other cruises). If the passenger had been kept on the ship and died of complications from the drugs or infection, I suspect the wife would have been even more upset!

 

 

Exactly.

[GS99]

[snip]

As far as suing the on-board doctor, good luck! He/she is almost certainly not a US citizen or resident and is just as certainly not licensed in the US.

[snip]

 

The doctor will be American or Canadian and does not appear to need his or her own malpractice insurance.!

 

From: http://www.acep.org/EmailContent.aspx?id=24930

 

"Holland America Line (12 to 18 ships, worldwide itinerary) hires exclusively North American-licensed MDs and RNs who are board certified in their specialty. Preference is given to emergency medicine practitioners with three years post training. Contracts are a minimum of two weeks. Liability is covered. Independent contractor status. Advanced cardiac life support, advanced trauma life support certification or equivalent. Credentials will be verified!"

[cle1]

Twice I have had to leave ships for medical reasons. First, from my personal experience, I was ONLY put off at a place where I could get the appropriate medical attention. The hospital was alerted to my condition, and when I would be arriving. Two, there was the cruise line agent to meet and take COMPLETE care of us until we left to go home. Three, there was an occasion where the ship could not dock or anchor, because of weather, and I had to be lowered on to a transport to take us to an island for treatment. We were safely taken care of at every step, and in both cases the ship's doctors were wonderful, caring, individuals. The ship's captains also, made the right calls. I have nothing but praise for my treatment.

[twinkletoes4445]

Twice I have had to leave ships for medical reasons. First, from my personal experience, I was ONLY put off at a place where I could get the appropriate medical attention. The hospital was alerted to my condition, and when I would be arriving. Two, there was the cruise line agent to meet and take COMPLETE care of us until we left to go home. Three, there was an occasion where the ship could not dock or anchor, because of weather, and I had to be lowered on to a transport to take us to an island for treatment. We were safely taken care of at every step, and in both cases the ship's doctors were wonderful, caring, individuals. The ship's captains also, made the right calls. I have nothing but praise for my treatment.

 

 

It's good to hear from someone who has had an experience with this situation (and I am glad it all worked out for you). I just finished reading a book that was written by a captain and there was a chapter that involved a very sick passenger and how he managed to get her off the ship and get her medical attention that in the end, saved her life. Her thanks and gratitude for her life being saved...She sued the cruise line and the captain (she did not win the lawsuit). :(

 

That's why I have to think there's more to this story than we are hearing. I just simply do not believe a captain would dump a passenger like being reported. I hope if this is not true HAL fights it to the end. I am sick of people who think that the "lawsuit lottery" is the way to get rich. On the other hand, what this couple is saying could be true...but I really do not believe it. We have only heard one side of this story so far....

[Cruising-along]

 

I am haunted ( well no, not really) by this tale of woe, as described by these two passengers. If you assume things went down, exactly as they portrayed, would you be yapping about being subjected to a neighborhood that had laundry hanging from clothes lines? Is this where the pain and suffering/emotional distress comes into play.

 

Hammy I wondered about this too. IMO a lot of this story just doesn't make sense.

 

Someone posted earlier "these are two articulate and educated attorneys", as if that gives sufficient reason why this is all true. :rolleyes:

 

Then again, IF it is true, it was a bad experience that nobody should have to go through.

[hammybee]

hammybee....you misunderstood me. I read a previous post that mentioned that the patient had an adverse reaction to the inhalant med? and in then in another post??? maybe (misread it) that possibly wrong drug was given (may have misread that one) Of course, an adverse reaction can occur with any med given at any time and that is no fault of the doctor, nurse, or patient....unless the medical staff failed to ask a patient about known allergies. After having worked as a nurse for a long time, I know only too well that medication errors do occur with greater frequency than most patients know about. Most of these do not end up with serious consequences, thankfully.:rolleyes:

 

Arwen, you are probably referring to my paraphrasing the review that was posted on CC a few months ago:

In this particular situation, Barry sought onboard medical relief for sniffles and says he recieved an inhaler and subsequently says he had an allergic reaction. The original review claims the MD panicked because the wrong medication had been dosed. That may be true or it may be speculation on the part of this passenger.

 

Maybe this passenger did not disclose other medical problems and medications. Maybe he did and it was overlooked. Or maybe the inhaler was not appropriate for sniffles. Or maybe this passenger had a spontaeous allergic reaction. And maybe the passengers asked for a medical evacuation. Lots of unknowns here.

 

This claim of an MD error did not get mentioned in the media interview. That may be strategy or it may be that part of the original allegation did not hold water. Heck, for all any of us know, they may have panicked after the adverse reaction. Understandable.

[world~citizen]

Arwen, you are probably referring to my paraphrasing the review that was posted on CC a few months ago:

 

 

This claim of an MD error did not get mentioned in the media interview. That may be strategy or it may be that part of the original allegation did not hold water. Heck, for all any of us know, they may have panicked after the adverse reaction. Understandable.

 

For laymen but professionals?

 

Not knowing the whole story does not give the benefit of the doubt to HAL or the PAX, which I fear is happening on this thread.

 

This is one case where I really wish we could get "the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story" if you know what I mean.

 

Smooth sailing ...

[hammybee]

 

That's why I have to think there's more to this story than we are hearing. I just simply do not believe a captain would dump a passenger like being reported. I hope if this is not true HAL fights it to the end. I am sick of people who think that the "lawsuit lottery" is the way to get rich. On the other hand, what this couple is saying could be true...but I really do not believe it. We have only heard one side of this story so far....

 

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

 

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

 

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

 

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

[JerseyJaguar]

Someone posted earlier "these are two articulate and educated attorneys", as if that gives sufficient reason why this is all true. :rolleyes:

My impression is that this is the reason most of us don't believe they are telling the truth about everything.

[hammybee]

For laymen but professionals?

 

Not knowing the whole story does not give the benefit of the doubt to HAL or the PAX, which I fear is happening on this thread.

 

This is one case where I really wish we could get "the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story" if you know what I mean.

 

Smooth sailing ...

 

The parts that do not settle well with me are the discrepencies between the original review and the media interview and all their perceptions are being communicated with equal weight. There is an enormous difference between an allegation that an MD made an error prescribing medications ( original review) and being driven though areas that ( gasp) had laundy hanging from clothes lines ( media interview).

 

There's about a two month lag between the original review and the cruise. There is about 6 months lag between the recent interview and the cruise.

This is more than adequate time for anyone to carefully choose their words. And yet, they chose to give equal weight to something as frivolous as being exposed to laundry, hanging on a clothes line.

 

Maybe that plays well to some people in NPB, but come on now.... most people of the world hang their laundry out to dry.

[world~citizen]

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

 

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

 

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

 

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

 

Well lawyers have rights too. They can be wronged and they can make a case for themselves. Personally I wouldn't (and I don't believe you) would discount a complaint because it was made by an officer of the court, anymore than I would accept the veracity of one because it originated from a peace officer.

 

This is an important allegation and it speaks to figuring out what is going to happen to you when things go wrong on a cruise ship, beyond the understanding we get from a cursory reading of cruiseship brochures.

 

This is real life.

 

Smooth sailing...

[pipedreams62]

We're here if you need us.

 

 

[world~citizen]

There's about a two month lag between the original review and the cruise. There is about 6 months lag between the recent interview and the cruise.

This is more than adequate time for anyone to carefully choose their words.

 

...and enough time to try to resolve the issue in good faith with HAL. Maybe they ran into that CYA attitude from HAL that I think you referred to in a post on an earlier thread?

 

Again, we don't know all the facts. That doesn't default to HAL or the pax.

 

Smooth sailing...

[happyglobetrotter]

I have sailed many many times with HAL - over 800 days with them - and I have had the experience of many people having to leave the ship and have witnessed a lot of medical evacuations and I simply do not believe some of the details of the story - one hour away - what is 5 minutes - in the middle of the night, already it has been confirmed as being 6.30 PM, as far as people in Italy speaking Italian, this is not an insulting oddity but the truth !

 

I hope the common sense prevails ! The story as told by this couple is sheer fiction. This is my opinion.

 

Louise

[twinkletoes4445]

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

 

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

 

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

 

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

 

Something happened that we're not being told about, IMO.

 

I went back and read the original review. One thing that caught my eye was this...

 

Barry has high blood pressure and the ship’s store did not have any over the counter cold pills he could take, so he went to the ship’s doctor for something to stop a runny nose. The doctor gave him an “inhaler” that was much too strong. He had a severe allergic reaction. The nurse gave him the anti-dote and in about 2 minutes he was fine. The entire incident played out in about 15 minutes. That’s when the nightmare began.

 

The ship’s doctor panicked when he realized he’d given Barry the wrong medicine. He called the bridge and apparently told them there was an emergency and asked that the ship be stopped. I know this because the Captain made a PA announcement to that effect to all the passengers. We were ordered to pack the cabin and get off the ship. Even though it was clear to at least 1 nurse as well as us that Barry was fine now, the doctor refused to call the Captain and admit he’d made a mistake.

 

If this guy had high blood pressure which caused issues with certain medications, don't you think he'd travel with his own meds? The reason I say this is because my hubby takes meds for high BP and we always travel with as assortment of OTC meds he can take. And with high BP, he doesn't take OTC meds unless he really has to...so if this guy had a "runny nose" I would think I'd just deal with it rather than try something new.

 

If this played out in 15 minutes and then a nightmare began, then something happened that we don't know about. The doc panicked? If the guy was fine, then why toss them off the ship? Were threats made? Something is not adding up.

 

Several ships’ officers took us down to the bowels of the ship where there was a rubber Avon-type boat about 20 feet long. A half dozen ship’s officers circled around us as the crew tried to lash this rubber boat to the ship. We could all see that the rubber boat had no medical equipment, no oxygen, no medical personnel, and no where to sit. We begged not to be cast off on this rubber boat, but Holland America had decided. They pushed us off, along with all of our luggage, on to this Avon with 3 Italians who spoke not a word of English.

 

On our last cruise, we joined the Noordam, the same ship they were on, in the same location (after being tendered from St. Lucia). It's different than the area that you normally tender off and on the ship, but it certainly wasn't what I'd consider the "bowels" of the boat. We walked inside the door and there was a set of steps we climbed. Would they have rather they be dropped to the waiting boat from the regular tender area? And it would be a big drop. I'm not following this at all.

 

It could be this couple faced a horrid situation and are completely justified in their actions, or it could be another "lawsuit lottery winner" waiting in the wings. We have become such a litigious bunch of people here in the USA. You can sue over anything...the problem is...it's the rest of us that pay more in the end because of the lawsuit winners (and that's sad because there are people who are justified in filing lawsuits against others). I just hope if these people are full of baloney, they are sued for slander/libel (if that's possible).

 

Things happen...and not everything is the result of negligence. So this is the first thing I thought of when I saw the initial report of this story. My guess is they are squawking now (the couple), because they'll probably settle out of court and not be able to talk about anything beyond that time.

[Copper10-8]

We're here if you need us.

 

 

 

Who's the angry one missing? There's only eleven of them!

[hulamoon]

He stepped out to the rest room?