Just came back from a barf fest on the Volendam

[dawdlingcruiser]

A well written article on the virus can be found here: http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=71

[all is good]

Just having gotten off HAL a week ago with a horrible experience with code red on the Amsterdam I really wonder if Noro was brought on or just a recirculated illness because of quick turnarounds and inadequate cleanings. This being my third HAL cruise over the years it was obvious to more than me that a lot of the quality standards have slipped in many areas. Aside from that when on the third day our cabin started to smell very strong of sewer/methane gas I got very little help from the front desk - even when I told them I didnt feel safe to go to sleep with the strong methane smell. We finally opened our door and that helped. On the second day of the awful on and off odor leaking in our room I asked the room steward if he was aware of this situation and had this room had this problem before he had a terrible look on his face of acknowledgement and please dont ask me any questions look. I felt bad for him, but this was not the vacation I looked so forward to. My point being if people are that sick and confined to their room its a great possibility the next occupants will have it in 24-48 hours. HAL will be my last choice for my 14th cruise!

[cruiserman79]

If you were quarentined, how could you have seen/not seen the Code Red procedures?

 

I fele bad for the cabin stewards, having to clean a room where someone vomitted on every surface. That said, what would be the point of sanitizing your room when the entire room was already sick with it? Clean it up, give you new towels, and then do the deep sanitzation once your family has left the room.

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

To clarify about the "Code Red", there simply was none in the end. What I was TOLD by the ships medical was that there WAS indeed a Code Red and the procedures were being carried out. My wife also heard this as she was standing next to me at the time. My question was, why wasn't this carried out?

 

As for feeling sorry for anyone, I'm sorry but I must have forgotten to pack my steam cleaner and Spray-9. After this horrendous trip, I even tipped the stewards cash and paid the mandatory daily service fee (tip) without complaint. My secondary point was that the sanitation should be done in this manner for every room on the ship between sailings if they are really so concerned about spreading norovirus and the like. They should, in essence, assume that the surfaces have been contaminated by bodily fluids and clean them as though they were. How exactly you do this with carpet floors and cloth cushions is beyond me.

 

Furthermore, "sanitizing the room" as you say is a CDC procedure that must be done and supervised by "senior" stewards when passengers are quarantined. This was, literally, a 7-10 minute process that consisted of: wiping the doorknob, changing the towels and spiffing up the bathroom. Absolutely nothing more. I somehow doubt this is what the CDC had in mind by sanitizing after an outbreak. I clean my own house in a far more thoroughly and I would never even dream of referring to that process as "sanitization".

 

I don't mean to be snide, but please place blame where it is due. I am the customer here, after all.

 

Thanks

 

So really, I should feel sorry for them? I think not.

[cruiserman79]

Ok, I totally sypathize with you. I've had noro on a cruise too.

 

Typically, you contact it, then two days later you have the symptons for 24 to 48 hours. Then after that you start recovering. Was this what happened to you?

 

You really need to analyze alot of details before blaming HAL. Remember they were just your floating hotel. People get noro at schools, hostpitals, airplanes lots of places....

 

How many people were sick? Concerning medical care there is not alot that most doctors do besides quaranting you for the 24 to 48 hours. With a family involved i.e. there may be more time needed to quaratine to avoid the spread. Often if the cruise line actually quaratines you to your room, you will get a future credit to cover the days you were in quaratine.

 

When talking to HAL, I would be brief and stick to facts. At this point talking about stains, etc. won't be much help. No one now can be sure what caused the stain or when. List all fact you have, when each of your family member gots sick and how long, actual doctors visit dates and dates of quaratine, how many other passengers or crew were reported to the CDC, did you actually reach Code Red?

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

My 1 year old is still having symptoms as of today (tiredness, diahrehea, lack of appetite) and she was the first to be symptomatic.

 

Please let me be clear as I am receiving some of the same questions:

 

1] I had no issue with being qurantined, in fact I completely agreed with it in both instances. I also voluntarily quarantined myself and my wife when we even thought we were becoming ill.

 

2] I realize that illness such as this occurs on cruise lines and is somewhat common place.

 

3] I believe that vomit stains on carpet in the hallways is an issue, even if it cannot be proven that I contracted the illness in this way. In fact, the stains were the first thing I noticed before entering our staterooms. I would likely not be here right now with this complaint if I had not had such a terrible experience--which actually includes several other issues not involving the illness.

 

4] The "Code Red" situation was stated to myself and my wife while in our stateroom. Code Red was never announced publicly. In fact, nothing was announced publicly until the captain's farewell announcement on the last afternoon of the last day.

 

5] I would have appreciated MORE preventative procedures, unlike some others perhaps. This is a clearly visible sign that the operator cares about its passengers and is taking measures above and beyond perhaps what is even required. This could have been easily explained to a relatively seasoned audience (being polite) who are likely experienced passengers anyway.

 

I do not have facts yet about how many passengers were infected. And frankly, it's a little besides the point in someways if it is 4.21% or 5.22%. Unfortunately, I have tried my best to explain an experience. To some it will come across as angry or hostile, to others I hope that it is objective and helpful in some way. The very best outcome would be for HAL to admit blame and to address some of the points I have made.

 

But the sad fact is that if I have to go to the great lengths of photographing vomit stains on carpets and flame here is IMHO probably not a great indicator of an operation that cares about limiting gastro infections. Even if the stains are not vomit and I'm wrong, this is very much an appearance industry. People are already concerned about seasickness, viruses, etc. when boarding. Why greet them with sickly brown stains on carpet? Am I missing something?

 

Moreover, I'm very pleased that others have had great experiences with HAL and maybe even the Volendam. If nothing else can be learned from this and someone absolutely has to be on this vessel in the state that I observed it, I would suggest to be very wary of cleanliness and to not let your young ones contact the floors with anything other than their feet. The sanitizer stations are a great idea, and we did use them regularly. I would also bring all medications, even those you don't think you'll need (pedialyte included).

 

I would definitely also do a Google search on the vessel, read these forums and get informed. You just may be one of that reported percentage that gets very ill. And don't for a second think that anyone will be responsible or hold your hand even if you have delicate family with you. What a wonderful world.

 

I really appreciate your post, I don't mean to be overly argumentative but I just want to make my points clear. It's great that we can all have a civil (so far) conversation here.

Thank you so much.

[cruiserman79]

Did you wait in your cabin for your escort? Did you call the front office when no excort appeared? While OP had a miserable time on this cruise, the ill family should have waited for an excort rather than mingling with other passengers.

 

I don't know if you've ever tried to reach the front office by phone during a disembarktion, but good luck. The other time where the phone is useless is when people start receiving their bills. Maybe it's more of my bad luck, who knows.

 

The bags were picked up on time, save for one that was forgotten. We phoned and finally got a hold of someone. They assured us the bag would be picked up, and we waited to no avail. The escort never showed and the time indicated on our specially-revised, PRINTED instructions was nearly over. We decided to lug the bag ourselves to the area and there was already a chaotic throng of expedited passengers waiting to get off.

 

You didn't mention this, but: the instructions clearly stated that our bags would be dealt with by HAL in this instance. I know that expedited usually means you're on your own. Those said bags were clearly lost when we docked as the Vancouver staff (thankfully) managed to contact someone at HAL and deliver them to our cab, which is also not their job at all.

 

While I did have a miserable time indeed, I am trying to be objective about what happened. Humans do make mistakes but when it is a comedy of errors (and back luck, I suppose) such as this, it really makes me wonder. Really, how long should I have waited for HAL to realize and admit they forgot about us?

 

Thanks!

[cruiserman79]

Just curious for my own sake and not trying to imply anything here, but I was wondering when you got sick? I was on that cruise and stressed to death of getting Noro. Every time my tummy was a little upset I was worried that I was getting sick. Now, I think it was just the aft stateroom.

 

I really tried to think about this one. Myself personally, I was the last to get sick [show symptoms], which was on the last night. Kudos to you for being that concerned about getting norovirus. I did consider myself as being very average in cruise virus knowledge before this trip. E.g. I saw the odd expose on TV or read on the net. The statistics themselves are not very alarming, but numbers have a strange effect that way. It's always different when it actually happens to you, or worse--your young family. My wife and her mother were literally in tears when we saw how affected our infant was.

 

Needless to say, I'm not a doctor or scientist either. I can only document what I saw and heard through my own experiences. Of course, I'm upset and still sick as well. I also took photographs when applicable, however.

 

I think that it is least likely that food or food handling caused this outbreak, but I am speculating. From what I could see, the Lido and restaurant were as clean and maintained as one would hope. Persumably, the kitchen is also satisfactorily clean. Handling by passengers of food is as minimal as possible as most know how HAL does buffet. There were hand sanitizer stations everywhere and we used them before meals. Perhaps that is where we errored, we were too focussed on foodborne illness and not enough on the obviously poor stateroom conditions. That's quite foolish now that I think back.

 

Also very speculative but maybe worth noting is that we seemed to feel better after simply leaving the stateroom. This is not including quarantine, of course. I keep harping on this but the staterooms and halls were the only _noticably_ dated and dirty areas of the ship. The air also seemed very stale and poorly circulated. Even the window was all mildewy. The caulking surrounding the fiberglass sill was brown and had mysterious hair and debris stuck in it. Pretty nasty. The couch looked like one my father had back in 1972, even though this ship was built in 1999 I believe.

 

We also had two side-by-side staterooms and they were pretty much identical. Even lifting the bedskirt in our room, you could see a thick layer of dust and some old crayons that kids left from who-knows how many sailings ago. I mean really, do your peoples bedrooms look like that?

[jannandjohn]

I don't mean to be snide, but please place blame where it is due. I am the customer here, after all.

.

I wholeheartly agree with you, it's a shame others FAIL CONTINUALLY to see that point.

[Pete Jackson]

They clearly need to give staterooms a more thorough cleaning once in a while, then the 3-4 hours that the stewards have between cruises. I would suggest boarding after 4PM, ship sails at 8PM to give more time for this.

Alternatively, a whole day could be reserved between cruises once a month for this.

 

We could see that some crannies in our stateroom had not been cleaned in some time on our May 16 Rotterdam cruise, and there was an empty small suitcase under our bed from a January sailing (the name and HAL tag were still on it!)!

[sos1720]

I think HAL owes you and your family an explanation. It does not seem like they were real attentive in your time of need. We were once on a family vacation at an expensive land resort, which will go unnamed, and our 4 children passed a bug and projectile vomiting back and forth for the entire 10 days we were there. My wife and I took turns walking down to the snack bar for a soda while the bedlam went on back at the cabin. We laugh at it now, but it was none too funny then. Some bugs, like hangovers, are only cured by time.

[happy cruzer]

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

My 1 year old is still having symptoms as of today (tiredness, diahrehea, lack of appetite) and she was the first to be symptomatic.

 

Please let me be clear as I am receiving some of the same questions:

 

1] I had no issue with being qurantined, in fact I completely agreed with it in both instances. I also voluntarily quarantined myself and my wife when we even thought we were becoming ill.

 

2] I realize that illness such as this occurs on cruise lines and is somewhat common place.

 

3] I believe that vomit stains on carpet in the hallways is an issue, even if it cannot be proven that I contracted the illness in this way. In fact, the stains were the first thing I noticed before entering our staterooms. I would likely not be here right now with this complaint if I had not had such a terrible experience--which actually includes several other issues not involving the illness.

 

4] The "Code Red" situation was stated to myself and my wife while in our stateroom. Code Red was never announced publicly. In fact, nothing was announced publicly until the captain's farewell announcement on the last afternoon of the last day.

 

5] I would have appreciated MORE preventative procedures, unlike some others perhaps. This is a clearly visible sign that the operator cares about its passengers and is taking measures above and beyond perhaps what is even required. This could have been easily explained to a relatively seasoned audience (being polite) who are likely experienced passengers anyway.

 

I do not have facts yet about how many passengers were infected. And frankly, it's a little besides the point in someways if it is 4.21% or 5.22%. Unfortunately, I have tried my best to explain an experience. To some it will come across as angry or hostile, to others I hope that it is objective and helpful in some way. The very best outcome would be for HAL to admit blame and to address some of the points I have made.

 

But the sad fact is that if I have to go to the great lengths of photographing vomit stains on carpets and flame here is IMHO probably not a great indicator of an operation that cares about limiting gastro infections. Even if the stains are not vomit and I'm wrong, this is very much an appearance industry. People are already concerned about seasickness, viruses, etc. when boarding. Why greet them with sickly brown stains on carpet? Am I missing something?

 

Moreover, I'm very pleased that others have had great experiences with HAL and maybe even the Volendam. If nothing else can be learned from this and someone absolutely has to be on this vessel in the state that I observed it, I would suggest to be very wary of cleanliness and to not let your young ones contact the floors with anything other than their feet. The sanitizer stations are a great idea, and we did use them regularly. I would also bring all medications, even those you don't think you'll need (pedialyte included).

 

I would definitely also do a Google search on the vessel, read these forums and get informed. You just may be one of that reported percentage that gets very ill. And don't for a second think that anyone will be responsible or hold your hand even if you have delicate family with you. What a wonderful world.

 

I really appreciate your post, I don't mean to be overly argumentative but I just want to make my points clear. It's great that we can all have a civil (so far) conversation here.

Thank you so much.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/GIlist.htm

 

I have added a link to the CDC page for reports on noro.

 

I know you feel attacked by all our questions, and very sorry to that. My point is that if the statistics prove that you had an outbreak then it makes it easier for a bean counter ( without having to go really high for approval) at HAL to approve some compensation. Additional facts, like receipts from doctors and a time line of infection that shows that the noro was contacted on the ship will help too. Just because a staff member even the doctor says the ship is in Code Red probably doesn't mean alot. Ships take various Code Red precautions at various times. Official Code Red happens per the CDC guidelines. I still can't tell if they took your ship to full Code Red. Also regarding sanitizing your cabin while your family was still in it, they probably do a full clean up when you report all is well (which you say is not the case even now) or when you leave; they probably just clean it while you are still occuping the cabin and are still ill.

 

Hope all feel well soon. And the memory of the noro does hang around. We caught it on a home port cruise which we are planning on doing again next year and I still have the noro in my mind even though I know it if it is in my home port ship, it is in my home port land area....

[rubytue]

I don't deny that you had a horrible expierence, and I apologize if you think I was blaming you. Noro is terrible. :( But, I do have sympothy for the cabin stewards. Your description of the condition of your room was very graphic and made me queasy just reading it. I read your post as you were upset with the stewards and assumed (incorrectly) that you probably didn't even tip them for cleaning up your family's mess. And I'm sorry if you disagree, but vomiting on "every surface" is your family's mess. Maybe not your fault, but your mess. And disgusting to read about :(

 

I will say that the one cruise I was on the was in code red, it was never annouced or anything. It was just obvious as the hot tubs were closed, crew were serving in the lido, etc. Thats why I asked how you knew or didn't know - if you were quarentinned, you wouldn't have seen these procedures.

 

If you read my recent posts, you will see I am not one of the HAL cheerleaders who always blames the victim. Personally, I'm not that happy about my recent cruise. But I was mearly asking questions.

[suse]

Kind of like, way too much information. We would have understood a less graphic description. I too, feel badly for your cabin stewards. Yikes.

[CruisinManiac]

My 1 year old is still having symptoms as of today (tiredness, diahrehea, lack of appetite) and she was the first to be symptomatic.

 

My wife and her mother were literally in tears when we saw how affected our infant was.

 

I am confused? Is your youngest an infant, and then you have a one year old, also?

 

Also, how early in the cruise (what day) did your family first become ill?

 

Even lifting the bedskirt in our room, you could see a thick layer of dust and some old crayons that kids left from who-knows how many sailings ago. I mean really, do your peoples bedrooms look like that?

 

When I lift the bedskirt from my bed, I find a large lump of white fur...it's the dog! :D There can also be a few half eaten dog bones, and maybe a little upchuck that I didn't know about until I looked under there. :eek:

[SnorkelFool]

I was on the Zuiderdam a week ago. It went code red on our last full day, but prior to this I knew that at least some passengers were sick as I overheard a couple of comments between some of the staff and other guests (those that were/had been sick) while wallking to my room. One such conversation concerned cleaning and sanitizing the room. I also noticed the supervisor to be in our corridor quite a lot the second half of the week, looking back, it is clear that he was there to oversee what was happening with the rooms of the sick guests. When we left our room to disembark, there were about 4 staff in what I would term HazMat type gear going into those rooms and they had a lot of cleaning gear with them. The supervisor was there as well.

[sail7seas]

OP.... you've answered everyone's question but mine. :confused:

I asked when you and your family flew home.

 

I see from your post above that you are, indeed, home and sadly your one year old is still displaying symptoms. That, of course, means that at least she is still contagious and capable of spreading the virus.

 

Many folks who become ill with noro virus on ships actually bring it to the ship and in the end infect others. They may or may not know they are ill at the time they board.

 

Chances are good whoever brought it aboard your ship and ultimately spread it to your family was infected on an airplance.

 

We cannot know for sure if that is the case but very often it is.

 

If folks were more considerate of others and instead of conveniencing themselves they refrained from flying while ill and contagious, far fewer cases of noro virus would be spread on cruise ships. Sadly more inconvenience on your part would have been the thoughtful thing to do for others....... so that their vacation/business plans were not impacted by your poswsible spead of the virus on the plane. I wonder if someone was infected by flying on the plane with you, touching things you touched in the airport, the luggage cart you may have used, the seat you sat in at the gate etc Presumably, their cruise was wrecked by their getting ill and to how many others did they pass it?

 

Hard thing to write; hard thing to read but we all know we should be thinking of others who we will impact and sometimes we need to put our own convenience aside in protection of others.

 

I sincerely hope your daughter and the rest of your family are well over the virus very soon.

 

BTW, Welcome to CC and to HAL. I may not sound it but I really am happy you found us so you could share this. We should read the good and the bad. It would have been great if you had found us before your cruise. Now that you know where we are, hope you'll visit before/during/after future cruises.

 

 

(DH has never had noro virus on a ship and I contracted it once, years ago, on a ship. Out of about 80 cruises, I figure we've been very lucky.)

[knitlady037]

I sailed on the Zuiderdam after it returned from a transatlantic under code red. Our departure was delayed by 12 hours while the ship was super sanitized. We received notices every day about updates regarding conditions around the ship. The first two days of our sailing were under code red conditions as a precaution. There were signs everywhere reminding people about hand washing and using hand sanitizers. MANY people ignored these warnings. The crew did all they could to stop the spread of the virus, but sadly they were almost fighting a losing battle due to inconsiderent and stupid people that would not follow guidelines. I heard people talking about how they were very sick the night before but would not stay in their rooms because " I paid for this cruise and I'm not staying in my room" mentality. After contacting my travel insurance company, I learned from them that if we were quarantined to our room we would be reimbursed for those days. Thankfully, we didn't get sick. The crew works very hard normally, but during a code red they are stretched to the limit. The one thing I learned about trying to not get sick is, as soon as we get to our room, spray every surface with some kind of disenfectant spray that is effective against noro virus. I spray beds,every surface in the bathroom, linens ,all door handles, couches, pillows,phones and TV remotes. I don't know if this helps, but I like to think it does, plus the room smells really fresh when we return. It only takes five minutes to spray. In regards to the family getting sick on every surface of the room- Have you ever tried to remove the odor of vomit? Very difficult. It takes days for that odor to dissipate. If someone was sick in your room before you had it. I think you would have noticed an odor lingering. If you thought your room was sick did you request a different room? Ships don't seem to be filling up right now, so that might have been an option.

[Robin7]

Many folks who become ill with noro virus on ships actually bring it to the ship and in the end infect others. They may or may not know they are ill at the time they board.

 

Chances are good whoever brought it aboard your ship and ultimately spread it to your family was infected on an airplance.

 

We cannot know for sure if that is the case but very often it is.

 

Our New Zealand/Australia cruise on the Volendam last fall spent 12 of 14 days in Code Red. The virus was brought on board by passengers on Qantas flight 26 the day we boarded. I was impressed that they had traced it down to the very flight from which the virus had originated.

 

I'm flying to Alaska next week to see my kids who are working up there (one for HAL, one for Princess). I'm taking disinfectant wipes and wiping every surface around my seat!

 

I would also be interested in knowing if the OP flew home while his family was still ill.

 

And OP, I'm so sorry your family became ill. I hope you enjoy your next cruise (on whatever line you choose).

 

Robin

[pms4104]

I would also be interested in knowing if the OP flew home while his family was still ill.

I've been wondering the same thing myself.

[CruisinManiac]

I also wipe down the stateroom surfaces when we embark. We once entered our stateroom and the carpet was damp beside the bed. I asked the steward about it, and his explanation did not jive with me. I had an uneasy feeling that the previous occupants had been sick. :rolleyes: I really cleaned that room good!

 

The thought of staying in a room that has previously been vomited on all surfaces, makes my stomach turn. :(

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

I'm flying to Alaska next week to see my kids who are working up there (one for HAL, one for Princess). I'm taking disinfectant wipes and wiping every surface around my seat!

 

I would also be interested in knowing if the OP flew home while his family was still ill.

 

 

 

Robin

 

 

 

I've been wondering the same thing myself.

 

 

 

OP stated that the one year old daughter is still displaying symptoms so seeing as OP said they are now home, they had to have flown when at least one of their family was still actively ill and, therefore, contagious.

[durangoscots]

OP stated that the one year old daughter is still displaying symptoms so seeing as OP said they are now home, they had to have flown when at least one of their family was still actively ill and, therefore, contagious.

 

Actually, OP needs to get that child to a physician.

[rochelle_s]

In regards to the comments about the OP and family 'flying' home....I did not read anywhere that the OP's vacation involved a flight. as I understand it the cruise was to Alaska and the OP has stated that they are Canadian in which case arriving to their home could very well have not involved a flight at all.

 

I agree with others who have stated how hard the crew on ships work and perhaps the issue regarding a fully cleaned and sanitized cabin lies more with the higher ups who are the ones who determine the procedures that are followed by the crew and in this case in particular the cabin stewards.

 

I was on the first two cruises after the Oosterdam's dry-dock so there was ample opportunity for a thorough cleaning of all cabins...or there should have been. The first day I noticed a black mildew on my shower curtain and I did in fact mention it to the cabin steward, who perhaps did not understand but the 'solution' I received was to have a cloth HAL shower curtain added on the outside. Another point on cabin cleanliness on this cruise was that I received a noticed one day regarding ongoing maintance around the ship and that they hoped it would not be an inconvenience but my cabin was scheduled to have the carpets shampooed the next day. It wasn't, and as this was a long port day I was not in the cabin the entire scheduled time. When I returned it was evident that my carpets had not been shampooed nor were they on any subsequent day.

 

None of this was an 'issue' for me, my point is only to show that ample time had been available during the drydock to do very thorough cleaning and it was not utilized and even when scheduled cleaning was arranged this too was not followed through with. These issues are not the fault of the steward but lie somewhere higher up in the management chain. Perhaps it needs to be addressed there.

 

I too hope the OP and family are better soon and wish you success in coming to a satisfactory resolution to your inquiries with HAL corporate.

 

Rochelle

[DizzyDallasDi]

I was on the Zuiderdam a week ago. It went code red on our last full day, but prior to this I knew that at least some passengers were sick as I overheard a couple of comments between some of the staff and other guests (those that were/had been sick) while wallking to my room. One such conversation concerned cleaning and sanitizing the room. I also noticed the supervisor to be in our corridor quite a lot the second half of the week, looking back, it is clear that he was there to oversee what was happening with the rooms of the sick guests. When we left our room to disembark, there were about 4 staff in what I would term HazMat type gear going into those rooms and they had a lot of cleaning gear with them. The supervisor was there as well.

 

Hi - I, too, was on the Zuiderdam last week and had no idea we went into code red on the last day because I was holed up in my room all day Friday watching movies and the rain bouncing off of my balcony. The weather was so crummy, I decided to enjoy room service and just kick back.

 

I think I saw one of the effected passengers being loaded into an ambulance in Ketchikan. When I was leaving the ship, she was being wheeled down an adjacent gangplank on a gurney, hooked up to an IV, and a couple of her traveling mates were carrying baggage off. One of the crew was calling for help in getting the rest of the luggage off the ship.

 

I was afraid this might have been a case of noro and my fears were probably right. I hope she and the rest of the sick passengers and crew on our cruise are feeling better!

 

Diane

[cruiserman79]

Actually, OP needs to get that child to a physician.

 

That child was taken to the emergency room on the drive home. We also contacted our family physician the same night.

[cruiserman79]

I've been wondering the same thing myself.

 

There was no flight involved. This is was an Alaskan cruise and we live in Vancouver. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that. We would not have flown or knowingly risked others as we realized we were likely contagious, as I mentioned before.