Carnival lost my daughter from Camp Carnival

[nealstuber]

In my opinion I don't think a 9 or 10 year old is old enough to sign themselves out of camp to wander a ship alone - to me that is just simply irresponsible on Carnivals part. I know for sure if I left my 9 year old alone in the house (a place that she knows) and if CPS (child protective services) heard of that I would probably lose my daughter. I really hope that Carnival changes that policy because it is not in the best interest of the children.

 

Our neighborhood is much bigger than a cruise-ship (yet we don't think of it as a "city") and our local elementary school has hundreds of 7 to 12 year olds walking and riding bikes home every day. Nobody thinks of this as "wandering," irresponsible, or the business of CPS. And I disagree with your opinion of what is in the best interest of my children. If you see the need for constant adult supervision for your children until a later age, you have that option! that's your business and your perogative. Don't presume to take that option from others who have a different view of the world.

 

people here really like the drama.

No kidding. Kids get "lost" and found all the time in all manner of circumstance. My kid brother got separated from us at the age of 5 at the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade. We caught up with him in a police station an hour later. Was it scary? (yes ) Was it preventable? (yes) Could it have been worse (most certainly). But things happen, most of the time we live and learn and it serves us later in life. (For those of you still not understanding - New York is an acutual City - its a little bigger than a cruise ship).

 

Having permission to sign out and being forced to sign out are two

different situations and this is how I read the OP's post.

 

We don't know that is what happened, and neither does OP. A 10 year old could easily interpret "Your parents did not sign you up for the late night party zone - so you'll have to leave" as being forced out. Nothing says the kid couldn't have stayed right outside the door. And I just find it impossible to believe that a Camp Carnival counsellor would have litterally forced the kid out if she said she was scared.

The parents were late, the kid tried to take initative and find them when the free time ran out (using a sign out privlege granted by her parents). Kid got lost and scared. Big effn deal. (Yawn)

 

Look what that dreadful group - The Boy Scouts - has 10 and 11 year olds doing...

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Orienteering

Call CPS! Don't they know there are lions, and tigers and bears! (oh my)

[nealstuber]

I wish to correct a mistake I made in my previous post. Haven't read the original post in a while and mispoke when I said the parents were late.

 

Sorry - above should read..

 

 

We don't know that is what happened, and neither does OP. A 10 year old could easily interpret "If you don't feel good you shouldn't get the other kids sick and should leave" as being forced out. Nothing says the kid couldn't have stayed right outside the door. And I just find it impossible to believe that a Camp Carnival counsellor would have litterally forced the kid out if she said she was scared.

The kid tried to take initative and find her parents (using a sign out privlege granted by her parents). Kid got lost and scared. Big effn deal. (Yawn)

 

Look what that dreadful group - The Boy Scouts - has 10 and 11 year olds doing...

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Orienteering

Call CPS! Don't they know there are lions, and tigers and bears! (oh my)

[halos]

We don't know that is what happened, and neither does OP. A 10 year old could easily interpret "If you don't feel good you shouldn't get the other kids sick and should leave" as being forced out.

 

If a 10 year old could easily interpret something wrong, then I have to assume that that same 10 year old could easily be scared if left alone.

Yes, kids do get lost quite often...I don't like to think that this is some 'right of passage' though....I also don't agree that comparing walking around your neighborhood is anywhere near the same as walking around a cruise ship. A child is comfortable and familiar with their neighborhood...and even if walked through the ship several times, and rehearsed on what to to...it's still something new. This kid likely has grown up in her neighborhood...spent 10 years there. She's had what, a few days on a very large ship jam packed with people???

Not the same. IMO.

 

It takes me nearly a week to get the layout of most CCL ships down pat. They aren't layed out as friendly as the ships on other lines. Not everyone is directionally savvy.

[Rowan555]

I also don't agree that comparing walking around your neighborhood is anywhere near the same as walking around a cruise ship. A child is comfortable and familiar with their neighborhood...and even if walked through the ship several times, and rehearsed on what to to...it's still something new. This kid likely has grown up in her neighborhood...spent 10 years there. She's had what, a few days on a very large ship jam packed with people???

Not the same. IMO.

 

It takes me nearly a week to get the layout of most CCL ships down pat. They aren't layed out as friendly as the ships on other lines. Not everyone is directionally savvy.

 

After thinking about this, I definitely see how it could be a bit more daunting for some kids, since they are much less familiar with the ship's layout than my kids. That's probably why at 9 I had no qualms letting our son sign himself out - by age 9 he'd been on 10 cruises, most of them Fantasy class (or very similar) and he knows the ins and outs of getting around the ship better than some of the crew seem to. My 8 year old was constantly giving people directions on the last cruise, telling them how to get to the dining room, or the piano bar, etc. The Fantasy is almost like our "second home" at this point and my children are as comfortable walking around it as they are walking around our neighborhood. When we go on the Triumph in November, I will take extra care in showing them around the ship, making sure they know how to get from point a to point b, and making sure they understand what to do if they get lost at any point. I will certainly allow them to go off on their own to get ice cream, or play mini golf, but I'll be extra sure beforehand that they have a good familiarity with the ship's layout.

[wentworth]

Hi Everyone,

 

but on the last night when my daughter was in Camp Carnival one of the camp counselors approached my daughter (who is 10) telling her she needed to sign out. My daughter felt confused and forced to sign out so she left. My daughter was seen sitting around crying not knowing what to do. When we arrived at 10:00 p.m. and Camp Carnival told us she didn't feel good and they told her to sign out and go to the room. We were furious. We went to the room and she was not there.crying and upset. She was told to sign out. We talked to supervisor and they said oops, sorry that was wrong, they didn't follow protocol but nothing they could or would do. We have since taken more serious measures.

:D

 

 

Neal, the op started the post, they were the ones there. I don't know

who is telling the truth, but if the child wanted to sign out on her own,

why would she end up found crying and being brought to the pursors

desk. Also, where did you read that the parents were late? I thought

the said they came back at 10?

 

Big effin deal????? Is that what someone told your parents when your

5 year old brother got lost?

[halos]

After thinking about this, I definitely see how it could be a bit more daunting for some kids, since they are much less familiar with the ship's layout than my kids. That's probably why at 9 I had no qualms letting our son sign himself out - by age 9 he'd been on 10 cruises, most of them Fantasy class (or very similar) and he knows the ins and outs of getting around the ship better than some of the crew seem to. My 8 year old was constantly giving people directions on the last cruise, telling them how to get to the dining room, or the piano bar, etc. The Fantasy is almost like our "second home" at this point and my children are as comfortable walking around it as they are walking around our neighborhood. When we go on the Triumph in November, I will take extra care in showing them around the ship, making sure they know how to get from point a to point b, and making sure they understand what to do if they get lost at any point. I will certainly allow them to go off on their own to get ice cream, or play mini golf, but I'll be extra sure beforehand that they have a good familiarity with the ship's layout.

 

 

Sure!! A kid familiar with their surroundings won't be intimidated or scared!!

Kids are creatures of habit...this is why they like the same story read to them every night for 4 months..or watch the same movie over again and again, until you are ready to scream. Familiarity makes them comfortable. In most situations any child would get upset in an unfamiliar place...of course it would be to different degrees, depending on the child.

[Rowan555]

Neal, the op started the post, they were the ones there. I don't know

who is telling the truth, but if the child wanted to sign out on her own,

why would she end up found crying and being brought to the pursors

desk. Also, where did you read that the parents were late? I thought

the said they came back at 10?

 

Big effin deal????? Is that what someone told your parents when your

5 year old brother got lost?

 

Another post later in the thread had something about another parent being late to pick their kids up from camp, so this is where the confusion started.

 

And I understand his "big effin' deal" comment - I think there's a lot of hyperbole and drama taking place on this thread, and it's just silly to act as though what allegedly happened in the OP was a "serious crisis" worthy of staff being fired and the cruise line being sued.

 

And regarding his brother getting lost at the parade - we've "lost" our kids several times at parades in New Orleans at Mardi Gras - and no, we've never freaked out about it - it's remarkably easy for a child to kind of drift up the street with a float, and it's the parents who freak out as soon as they can't see their child who aren't able to keep calm enough to find them quickly. I think people fly off the handle far too quickly these days - and if they would just keep their cool, everything generally turns out okay.

[Kurbanfan]

Yes, kids do get lost quite often...I don't like to think that this is some 'right of passage' though....I also don't agree that comparing walking around your neighborhood is anywhere near the same as walking around a cruise ship. A child is comfortable and familiar with their neighborhood...and even if walked through the ship several times, and rehearsed on what to to...it's still something new. This kid likely has grown up in her neighborhood...spent 10 years there. She's had what, a few days on a very large ship jam packed with people???

Not the same. IMO.

 

It takes me nearly a week to get the layout of most CCL ships down pat. They aren't layed out as friendly as the ships on other lines. Not everyone is directionally savvy.

 

 

I totally agree! No comparison at all IMO........

[kyrisong1]

. I'll probably get flammed for this, but that's OK, I'm on this thread learning so I have more insight next time we take our grandchildren with uson a cruise.

Why would you get flamed? Pene seems to have an agenda to get Kurban to argue, Kurban avoided the bait masterfully!!!

I'm sure most are in agreement, nothing added to this thread by this little drama.

Carole

[wentworth]

After thinking about this, I definitely see how it could be a bit more daunting for some kids, since they are much less familiar with the ship's layout than my kids. That's probably why at 9 I had no qualms letting our son sign himself out - by age 9 he'd been on 10 cruises, most of them Fantasy class (or very similar) and he knows the ins and outs of getting around the ship better than some of the crew seem to. My 8 year old was constantly giving people directions on the last cruise, telling them how to get to the dining room, or the piano bar, etc. The Fantasy is almost like our "second home" at this point and my children are as comfortable walking around it as they are walking around our neighborhood. When we go on the Triumph in November, I will take extra care in showing them around the ship, making sure they know how to get from point a to point b, and making sure they understand what to do if they get lost at any point. I will certainly allow them to go off on their own to get ice cream, or play mini golf, but I'll be extra sure beforehand that they have a good familiarity with the ship's layout.

 

 

Rowan, I agree with what your saying. You an your children have

cruised so many times on the Fantasy that it probably does feel like

home to you. Not so for many others. Other children have not

experienced lots of travel and their parents are more reluctant to let

them off by themselves, myself included.

 

Hope you enjoy your cruise on the Triumph.......that will be our next

cruise as I'd love to go back to New Orleans:)

[nealstuber]

If a 10 year old could easily interpret something wrong, then I have to assume that that same 10 year old could easily be scared if left alone.

Yes, kids do get lost quite often...I don't like to think that this is some 'right of passage' though....I also don't agree that comparing walking around your neighborhood is anywhere near the same as walking around a cruise ship. A child is comfortable and familiar with their neighborhood...and even if walked through the ship several times, and rehearsed on what to to...it's still something new. This kid likely has grown up in her neighborhood...spent 10 years there. She's had what, a few days on a very large ship jam packed with people???

Not the same. IMO.

 

It takes me nearly a week to get the layout of most CCL ships down pat. They aren't layed out as friendly as the ships on other lines. Not everyone is directionally savvy.

 

Just 5 miles from the border, Our neighborhood is full of transplants. Heck, the school has only been open a year an a half. Our kids have moved 5 or 6 times - so they may get "comfortable and familiar" more quickly than some - and I agree that not every 10 y/o kid is ready to find their way about on a ship - but many of them are.

 

I'm on this thread because I do not want carnival to raise the self-check out age for kids as there was a time when it served us well. I also don't need or want a "Nanny State" (in the most literal sense) on my vaction. DW and I are the best judge of what our kids are ready for and when - not Carnival - and certainly not a bunch of folks on CC. I would hate to see Carnival rounding up kids who are behaving well and enjoying their vacation to apease the out-of context sensibilities of some on this thread.

[gtouch]

See this is where we differ........I would never leave my child at home alone for any reason....it really is not that hard to put them in a car seat and go....

Sorry I just don't get it............

 

I think your make a good point solid logic and easy to follow. Put the child first.

[halos]

 

And regarding his brother getting lost at the parade - we've "lost" our kids several times at parades in New Orleans at Mardi Gras - and no, we've never freaked out about it - it's remarkably easy for a child to kind of drift up the street with a float, and it's the parents who freak out as soon as they can't see their child who aren't able to keep calm enough to find them quickly. I think people fly off the handle far too quickly these days - and if they would just keep their cool, everything generally turns out okay.

 

ok, although I agree that in a situation that is intense it is best to keep your cool, but I have a hard time being so blasé about a child becoming separated from their parent. For me personally, I wouldn't stand and scream like a maniac, but I know how fast my heart would be racing and I have experienced this when my kids were younger...once. And once was MORE than enough. This only happened in a supermarket. To be calm losing your child during Mardi Gras??? No, sorry. I'd have a heart attack.

 

everyone is different...

[hayesktrm]

My new sister-in-law would laugh at this thread. My brother moved to Japan and married a Japanese woman with an 8 yo. We were shocked when they told us her son catches a train, gets off and walks the rest of the way to his English classes. He also stays home alone. When he got lost at a store in the new town they moved to, he walked the couple miles home. Now, I did explain to her that when they moved back to the states they couldn't do this...they might be arrested for child endangerment and I would never had put my kids in those situations...however, their culture is like that. All the kids have those kinds of freedoms and they think nothing of children going around on their own. I think here we are, at times, on the other side of the spectrum.

 

I wonder if the people who don't give their children (who are of a reasonable age) any kind of freedom, send their kids to summer camp. I would be a lot more worried about my kids wandering off in that kind of atmosphere...or I would be worried they might get hurt. I also think my kids are in a lot more danger in our city than on a cruise ship. I haven't heard of any situations (except the one posted here where a man took kids into his cabin) on cruise ships where any of these things have happened (and I even goggled to see if I could bring anything up). I do here about pedophiles here almost on a weekly basis.

 

Again, that's what is great about Carnival...you have the choice whether you want to give your child that freedom or not. I didn't give my DD that choice when she was of that age, but now that she's 12 as long as she knows my rules and knows where the cabin is, she gets that freedom.

[halos]

Just 5 miles from the border, Our neighborhood is full of transplants. Heck, the school has only been open a year an a half. Our kids have moved 5 or 6 times - so they may get "comfortable and familiar" more quickly than some - and I agree that not every 10 y/o kid is ready to find their way about on a ship - but many of them are.

I'm on this thread because I do not want carnival to raise the self-check out age for kids as there was a time when it served us well. I also don't need or want a "Nanny State" (in the most literal sense) on my vaction. DW and I are the best judge of what our kids are ready for and when - not Carnival - and certainly not a bunch of folks on CC. I would hate to see Carnival rounding up kids who are behaving well and enjoying their vacation to apease the out-of context sensibilities of some on this thread.

I don't argue that CCL should be the parent, and I posted as much early on in this thread...My point is that people come on here and blast the OP saying a 10 year old child shouldn't have reacted this way. I find that appalling.

NOT every 10 year old IS ok finding their way around a ship...especially if it's their first cruise. I don't know if 'many' are or not...and neither do you. All we really know is our own children.

 

I don't think CCL should raise the check out age either. I agree whole heartedly with you. Parents should parent their children. You can always sign the paper saying that they cannot check themselves out. BUT if they did (which is highly unlikley) is it THAT inconvenient to you to walk a little bit and pick up your CHILD????

This is a family vacation isn't it?

[nealstuber]

Big effin deal????? Is that what someone told your parents when your

5 year old brother got lost?

 

No, but its what my Dad would have said if someone suggested he try to sue Macy's or the NYPD. He certainly wouldn't have done a "one post wonder" on a Parade web site. And he didn't have to. My brother did not panic - he went to the nearest uniformed officer and asked for help. What a concept. Both my parents took responsibility and refined our ground rules for future events. More "crazy talk" in this day and age.

[wentworth]

ok, although I agree that in a situation that is intense it is best to keep your cool, but I have a hard time being so blasé about a child becoming separated from their parent. For me personally, I wouldn't stand and scream like a maniac, but I know how fast my heart would be racing and I have experienced this when my kids were younger...once. And once was MORE than enough. This only happened in a supermarket. To be calm losing your child during Mardi Gras??? No, sorry. I'd have a heart attack.

 

everyone is different...

 

LOL , I agree with you. Getting lost in rural Maine or NH, is one thing

but Mardi Gras...........no way,............my cool would be boiling!!!

[halos]

LOL , I agree with you. Getting lost in rural Maine or NH, is one thing

but Mardi Gras...........no way,............my cool would be boiling!!!

 

LOL...I can't lose a child in a crowd here...there are no crowds!!

 

I lost my DD in a Philly supermarket. I can remember my heart beating so hard I thought it would punch it's way out of my chest.

[Rowan555]

I'm on this thread because I do not want carnival to raise the self-check out age for kids as there was a time when it served us well. I also don't need or want a "Nanny State" (in the most literal sense) on my vaction. DW and I are the best judge of what our kids are ready for and when - not Carnival - and certainly not a bunch of folks on CC. I would hate to see Carnival rounding up kids who are behaving well and enjoying their vacation to apease the out-of context sensibilities of some on this thread.

 

Very good point! We're flying to FL to go on the Dream next April, and the main reason is that our younger child will have just turned 9, and then both kids will be able to sign in and out of camp on their own. She is so excited to be able to do that, and we're excited as well. If the age was to change because of a frivolous lawsuit, or threat of such, I would be quite disappointed. It's a perfect setup as is - parents like myself who wish to allow their 9 - 11 year olds to sign out can do so, and parents who do not wish to grant the privilege can choose not to. I very much hope the policy remains the same. It works for our family, and if flexible enough to work for all families.

[Kurbanfan]

LOL...I can't lose a child in a crowd here...there are no crowds!!

 

I lost my DD in a Philly supermarket. I can remember my heart beating so hard I thought it would punch it's way out of my chest.

 

I believe every mother that has experienced this will never forget that sinking feeling in our chests.......no matter if it was for a few seconds or a few hours.........it is just a feeling that can't be explained........

[nealstuber]

I don't argue that CCL should be the parent, and I posted as much early on in this thread...My point is that people come on here and blast the OP saying a 10 year old child shouldn't have reacted this way. I find that appalling.

NOT every 10 year old IS ok finding their way around a ship...especially if it's their first cruise. I don't know if 'many' are or not...and neither do you. All we really know is our own children.

 

I don't think CCL should raise the check out age either. I agree whole heartedly with you. Parents should parent their children. You can always sign the paper saying that they cannot check themselves out. BUT if they did (which is highly unlikley) is it THAT inconvenient to you to walk a little bit and pick up your CHILD????

This is a family vacation isn't it?

 

I think we pretty much agree. And - no it would not be a huge deal if they raised it. Most of the kids we see about on the ship weren't signed into camp in the first place (ours included). My interest in this topic is two-fold. 1) My kids will be even less inclined to use the camp if they feel they are being treated "like babies." 2) I don't like that Carnival (and the other lines) are being forced to make this "non-issue-issue" a prority. I'd rather see the kids camps focused on providing new an exciting things to do.

 

Just had a funny thought - my first cruise was in 2nd grade on the Statendam. Grandma and Grandpa took me to Bermuda and I remember making my way to the card room on the 1st sea day. Guess what we did - MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE! As has been beeten to death on another thread - that doesn't happen anymore because the nil envirnmental impact was taken out of context and given disproportionate importance by a few folks unable to see the big picture. I feel the same way about this topic (and the swine flu thing too).

[halos]

I think we pretty much agree. And - no it would not be a huge deal if they raised it. Most of the kids we see about on the ship weren't signed into camp in the first place (ours included). My interest in this topic is two-fold. 1) My kids will be even less inclined to use the camp if they feel they are being treated "like babies." 2) I don't like that Carnival (and the other lines) are being forced to make this "non-issue-issue" a prority. I'd rather see the kids camps focused on providing new an exciting things to do.

 

Just had a funny thought - my first cruise was in 2nd grade on the Statendam. Grandma and Grandpa took me to Bermuda and I remember making my way to the card room on the 1st sea day. Guess what we did - MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE! As has been beeten to death on another thread - that doesn't happen anymore because the nil envirnmental impact was taken out of context and given disproportionate importance by a few folks unable to see the big picture. I feel the same way about this topic (and the swine flu thing too).

 

I posted on the message in a bottle thread. As for environmental impact, I truly have NO idea if it would have one or not. I am not an expert on the oceans....because I'm not an expert and don't know if tossing bottles does or doesn't have an impact, I then refrain from even thinking about doing it.

I figure I do enough damage to the earth already. No need to make it worse. ;)

 

The swine flu??? Whew! That was mass hysteria IMO...but I actually had a Dr appointment during that time and she said that although people shouldn't be hysterical, there was valid reason for concern.

I think there's valid reason for concern every time I get behind the wheel of my car too....but I do my best to stay as safe as possible. I buckle up for one.

 

In the same regard, I know you don't want to over protect your child...but you do what you can to keep them safe :)

[txgolfergrl]

You're taking 'further action' because your TEN YEAR OLD daughter was mistakenly let out of Camp Carnival early and YOU didn't have a contengiency plan (such as...'if you're EVER lost or confused on the ship, go to the purser's desk...or pick up a phone and tell the operator to have you paged...or find a crew member, etc'.) (and ultimately NO harm came to your daughter). If everybody took 'further action' based on the 'what-could-have-happened's' in life...we'd ALL have to keep lawyers on retainer.

Look, I'm sorry that happened. People make mistakes at their job every day. Granted, keeping all your little ones safe is a job that has no room for error. But YOU, as the parent are ultimately responsible for teaching your children how to handle the 'what ifs' in life.

[nealstuber]

I posted on the message in a bottle thread. As for environmental impact, I truly have NO idea if it would have one or not. I am not an expert on the oceans....because I'm not an expert and don't know if tossing bottles does or doesn't have an impact, I then refrain from even thinking about doing it.

I figure I do enough damage to the earth already. No need to make it worse. ;)

IMO, Nobody really understands man's impact on the envrionment - but we're about to embark on a "carbon credits scheme" that will cause great harm to our economy. The fix is worse than the problem.

The swine flu??? Whew! That was mass hysteria IMO...but I actually had a Dr appointment during that time and she said that although people shouldn't be hysterical, there was valid reason for concern.

Concern yes - cancelling cruses to Mexico no. The fix was worse than the problem.

I think there's valid reason for concern every time I get behind the wheel of my car too....but I do my best to stay as safe as possible. I buckle up for one. Motor veichle safety has improved dramatically and I would accept the argument that the "Nanny State" was a driving force on this front (even a blind squirrel can find a nut every once in a while). Lets see what happens on the safety front when the same nanny state says we have to start drving smaller, more effficent cars.

 

In the same regard, I know you don't want to over protect your child...but you do what you can to keep them safe :)

 

I don't accept that "better safe than sorry" is an axiom. The case can be made that the safest course of action with respect to crusing is to stay home.

Why risk exposing our children to "uncomfortable" and "unfamiliar" surroundings?

Why sign the injury waiver?

Why engage in boating, swimming, and other high risk excursions?

Why expose children to drinking and gambling and thongs?

Why put them into an upper berth where they could fall out?

Why risk them falling overboard?

 

Every parent that cruises with their children is taking a calculated risk. For that matter any parent that cruises and leaves their kids home is taking a different set of risks. Any parent that cruises and then insists on a one-size fits all formula for parental risk managment is, IMO, a hypocrite.

[gatormama]

Someone can "take further action" but that doesn't mean it will go any further. I had a friend who wanted to hire a lawyer a the school incident and was told for what it would cost, she could put her son in private school. She never did either. People say things when they are angry, follow through is a whole dofferent story. Unless Carnival released her child without her permission, then in the end it is the parents fault.

 

Carnival is not going to change a sane and rational policy that works for 99% of families over one incident that simply resulted in an angry mom.