Flyinby

We've had 14 in a suite a couple of times, for a meetup, not a meal, and it was fine. These are different suites, but if we don't cause the ship to list to one side, we should be OK. Regardless, the chance of getting all 19 there for lunch or breakfast would be pretty remote, nothing to worry about. Anyway, I don't want to highjack the original topic, just meant to comment on the room service post.

Yeah, that was meant mostly in jest, hence the smiley. It would be pretty hard to explain how we used all those clothes... But I really haven't used the free laundry service offered on our other (non-Princess) trips a lot...maybe once on a 10-15-day, at most 2 times for my wife. So Princess is getting a pretty good deal since we won't be using a lot of the "exclusive" suite benefits.

Glad you mentioned this, I have a similar situation as the original post. We've booked a penthouse suite for a 19-person-7-cabin family trip to Alaska, and I can just visualize getting everyone together for breakfast or lunch in the suite (other cabins are balcony). That alone may tip the scale in favor of keeping the suite. We will all eat dinner each night in the MDR together, and many of the other listed benefits won't be of much benefit....though I guess if someone needs laundry done, they could just drop it off 8^).

I was referring to my own criteria, as to why I'd need drinks to enjoy a cruise, if they're already "fun and exciting, enjoyable and educational". If they're not, without the help of alcohol, then maybe I should look at other options. I'm glad you enjoy your cocktails and wine regularly, and I'm sure that makes you the best judge of your faculties (since you mention "judgy"). You do seem a bit edgy about it though, relax. Since you're comfortable with it, what you think others think of it should not be a concern.

Or one can always ask "If I'm spending this much on a cruise, why would I need to drink to enjoy it?" If that's the case, maybe the test of a real vacation would be finding one you can really enjoy with all your faculties intact. 🤪 I have noticed here on the boards, one of the first and most common questions asked are "do they have a drink package?" or "How is the drink package?" etc. Probably beats out food or scenery and destination questions by quite a bit. Just sayin... But it does seem to me that a basic drink package...alcohol or not, should come with a suite. That's the case on many other cruise lines. I don't particularly being financially nitpicked for a cup of coffee or some sparkling water, and now that they've done away with the coffee package it just makes me less likely to consider Princess if there are alternatives.

There are a few longer excursions where you meet the ship at the next port. With the 'taste of Vesteralen' tour, you're off in Harstad and meet the ship in Sortland. On that particular one, they arrange to have the bus crossing the bridge as the ship goes under, which was kind of fun, besides it being a good tour. https://pbase.com/roberthouse/image/173488292 The winter stop in Alesund is a long 8-hour one (allowing for the Geirangerfjord tour), but there are several other stops around 2 hours or so. Getting off at these stops is interesting, there's really plenty of time for a short walk, and as Homerody said, the evening informational talks always let you know what is nearby, or will answer your questions if you have specific places you want to walk to during the stop. Nothing wrong with segments, however even when we had friends ending the trip at Kirkenes, I was glad we were staying on...I hadn't had enough yet, though I still hadn't when we arrived back in Bergen 8^). For a first time, I'd suggest maybe at least a full north or southbound if not round trip. Or maybe, during summer midnight-sun time, getting off somewhere on the northerly part and spending a night or two, then either flying back or reboarding and continuing the coastal journey a day or two later. Most of the towns I've seen are not what you'd call "tourist towns" so just a day might be enough.

I don't think you even have to book a suite to use the laundromat yourself, which is free. I don't remember any laundry service where they do it for you, but didn't inquire about it. It's a simple process with state of the art machines, you don't even have to measure out detergent.

This sounds great if they can make it work. I was surprised to see they were considering only electric options (and sail, if that works out) for recharging...that's quite a transition to have ready by 2030. Then I realized they may be thinking of shorter routes between stops, with recharging at the stops (like the coastal express route) which would be more feasible than anything where they'd be at sea for several days. On our recent Havila coastal trip, in one of the daily talks they spoke about how the ships were designed to be convertible from LP or biofuel to hydrogen, when the technology allows. That sounds more feasible to me, at least in the short term. Batteries are still large and heavy, so a hybrid design that would have zero emissions, and be less dependent on shore power seems to me like a more immediate solution. The current ships (Havila's) can run for several hours on battery-only, but taking away the onboard source of charging power, that's only practical for shorter runs with many stops that can provide charging. Then there are passenger needs. Lighting isn't a huge drain, but heat or air conditioning is, and I know there have been cases of engineers "forgetting" that passengers have needs too, when calculating the range of a ship on battery or fuel. So maybe they'll surprise me and get there by 2030...certainly we'll get there eventually, but there are still a lot of issues for something like this. Even transporting cars, now that lithium battery power is getting more common, has some real issues...if there's ever a fire, they're going to need a fast and safe way to deal with it when out at sea, and I'm not sure that exists yet. Thanks for the link...very interesting and definitely heading in the right direction.

Whoa...that covers a lot of ground! If that's the case, and you booked a 'round the world cruise with them, they could change it to: "We've changed the world cruise to one that goes around Lake Erie. The associated hotels are full, so you will need to bring an RV for some of the land nights (we will pay for the space, if available, other land nights will be at Motel6 in Detroit, assuming they haven't figured out that we don't pay our bills). Ports of call will be Toledo, Cleveland, and Buffalo. Except they won't let us tie up there since we have a bad payment record, so if we are able to get fuel we will cruise around the lake and anchor offshore. We don't guarantee tenders, so you'll have to arrange your ship to shore access. All costs are your responsibility, we are not responsible as should be obvious to everyone by now. If you have questions, call customer service and have a valid credit card ready. Thanks for being a valued customer."

I also like to plan ahead, but it depends what's important to you individually. I like to be able to choose my cabin, location and type...if you want a suite or mini-suite, a balcony, a certain deck and location, booking early is important. Ending up with a blocked view, no balcony, way aft, may not bother you, or it may detract from your overall experience, and after all, the whole purpose is to enjoy it. If looking at available cabins a week before your departure and finding them significantly cheaper would upset you, maybe the gamble is worth it. To me, I look at the final overall price when I book, and if I think it's fine, then it doesn't bother me if they sell last minute cabins cheaper...I got what I wanted at a price I was OK with. When you book directly (I prefer that too), the princess travel rep for your area may be able to switch you around...I know they're very good at rearranging things when a member of our group needs to be added or canceled, someone wants a cabin upgrade, etc. The point Waltd made about flying is also good. While there can be last minute airfare bargains, you can't rely on that, and they can easily be higher, or worse, unavailable. Last thing I want is an 11-hour overseas flight in cramped economy 3-across because that's all that was left. That said, some time back we booked an Alaska trip late, and as I entered our deck 4 smaller-window cabin I was a bit bummed. But it turned out to be right near the morning coffee, easy access to the restaurants, fairly uncrowded seating near windows, and was really a pleasant surprise after all. But in general, since I'm cruising for pleasure, not to save money, I like to tailor it best to our liking, rather than maybe save a few bucks and be stuck with what's left over.

Thanks to those who replied regarding the "mystery" of why so many remain faithful to Vantage despite 14--now 15 pages of cancellations, missing refunds and other complaints. I think Jazzbeau hit it for the most part...loyalty to first (or earlier) experiences. The other things cited like "meaningful contact with locals" etc. are pretty general, and probably could be said for many other cruise lines, so I'm really not convinced to try Vantage (maybe it's the fun of gambling...OK, I'm booked, now will I get to go? 8^) But we all form loyalties to some extent...a good experience even once can form a "favorite" that lasts a long time. I generally self-insure my trips, but seeing the somewhat devious ways they're getting out of issuing refunds for cancelled trips eases my decision to stay well clear of Vantage, but again, thanks for the replies and I hope your tours all work out well.

Just an observation...Vantage must have (at least at one time) been nothing short of amazing. With (so far) 14 pages of cancellations, lack of refunds, poor customer service, again and again, people are still booking with and excited about their (maybe) upcoming trips with Vantage. They either have (had) something to offer that no other company could, or they have a lot of faithful-to-the-end followers willing to book and hope. From the viewpoint of one who never used them, I'd be running away so fast that they wouldn't know I existed...planning for a trip, preparing, getting excited, then 'poof', never mind. Just an observation, but it's a bit puzzling.

I haven't been inside the panorama deluxe cabins, only seen them through the open doors, and they do indeed have nice large windows, facing forward. I considered these at first, but when I found out there were no side facing windows, decided on the junior suite. We went in mid February, and I had thought the balcony might be of limited use, but we used it a lot. Not for lounging around, but for viewing ports and scenery (and northern lights at times). The weather was cold, but not usually the extremes I expected (the gulf stream keeps the Norway coast warmer than inland). I really enjoyed watching and taking photos as we came into ports from the balcony, and it's easy to pop back into the nice warm room when/if you get cold. We never even closed the curtains, watching some of the nighttime activity was enjoyable, and I didn't mind if I was awakened by the lights when coming into ports. The gold package that comes with the suites is also nice...you can stop by the cafe any time, if you'd rather do that than the dining room, or for a snack or something to drink, coffees, etc. Breakfast for the suites is in the Havrand dining room, rather than the main dining room, which is nice as you can go in when you choose. The suites also give you a couple of nights in the Havrand dining room for some fancy dining. You can pretty much just do the math on the drinks packages, figuring maybe $10-12 per as a ball-park figure. I don't drink so can't really help beyond that, but if 50 drinks would do you for the 11-12 days, it's probably a bit cheaper, or at least easier. I don't think you can lose with either the forward views of the pano cabins or the junior suites, or a balcony cabin, but the gold package was nice to have. The Junior suites and Pano cabins are on deck 7, so it's an easy and quick trip to deck 9, with the open deck aft and the large observation lounge forward, so I didn't feel at all limited by being on one side. Those forward windows are very large and probably have a great view while underway, but I'd still pick the suite if (or actually, when) we go again. Just bring good quality warm clothes...layers, wool, down, and good head coverings such as wool watchcap and or expedition hat with ear flaps, gloves, and by all means a scarf, and the cold probably won't be much of an issue. We had one of the forward junior suites, I think the ones further aft may be a little quieter...there were some occasional 'klunks' and ship noises but it was a very quiet ship, and the only thing that would wake me was the lights from the port (since we left the curtains open). The pano cabins are forward also.

I looked at some of the exif data from my recent trip...I had a 28-300mm (camera) with me but wasn't sure how much of the telephoto I'd used. There were a lot of photos in the high 250-300mm (equivalent) zoom range. There are a lot of small settlements that almost look like toy model towns because the surroundings are so large, and the telephoto was nice to have. I also used my Leica D-lux7 a lot, with 24-70mm equivalent f/1.7 lens, and did have a lot of use of widest angle, and sometimes wished it went beyond 70. With the northern lights, I could have used a wider angle than the 24, but I didn't have one. Hopefully your prime is a relatively fast lens...with the ship motion, the longer exposures needed for northern lights are tricky. I was able to get it down on the Leica to under a second at ISO 1600 f/1.7 with the brighter northern lights (could have probably pushed it to 1/2 second, but had to use ISO 3200 on a not-so-bright night. The Leica is a 4/3 sensor, so you can probably push your ISO quite a bit higher than I did. The really fancy photos that are from land often use 10-15 seconds at low ISO, but it would be a messy blur from the moving ship, we just don't have that luxury. You could probably do a lot of the daytime photos with the 70-200 or 300, but it could be a hassle not having a wider angle, or at least it would be for me...even a 35-200 or similar might be more versatile. But then, the 70-300 would be handy at times, just keep your prime lens handy. As you can probably tell from above, I took smaller cameras, but there were plenty of SLR's in use out there on deck. Swapping lenses out in the wind would have been a pain. But you'll get some really nice photos no matter what, it's so photogenic out there.

I was curious about northern lights and ran across Hurtigruten's coastal express route. It sounded interesting, with all the stops at smaller towns...something different than a normal "cruise". I don't remember how I also ran across Havila's site, it might have been here on the forum or a search, but after inquiring here and getting some good info from Hallasm and others, it sounded better and better. Havila sounded more exciting...a new line with new ships and what seemed like a good attitude to environmental issues etc. I had recently booked a Viking River grand European cruise for May 2022, and when looking at the prices for Havila's cabins, it seemed like a great bargain. I had looked at some of Hurtigruten's cabins, but must have looked on the older ships, because the basic rooms looked more like a train compartment; plus they had few balconies, and I've always been partial to balconies. (Though for Norway in mid-winter, it seemed silly, but as it turned out I used the balcony a LOT, way more than I use it on any "normal" cruise. Anyway, so I booked a nice cabin on the Capella, almost a year ahead of departure, with the most flexible option in case I wanted to cancel later. It got more exciting as I learned about the Oslo-Bergen train, and I added a couple of days in each city along with overnight in Flam. It was no longer a "cruise", the Havila voyage being an integral part of it but not all of it. The short stops were great, me being an avid photographer, to where we left the curtains open at night so I could wake up (if I felt like it) and check out the stops (from the lights...most stops were so quiet they were easy to miss). On the "longer" short stops it was fun to get out, bundle up, slip on some YakTrax and take a short walk around town. Most long stops had some interesting excursions, and we took a lot of them. Weaving among the islands and passing so many towns was fascinating also, really no need to get off the ship unless one felt like it. The northern lights were great on a few nights, though taking photos from a ship is not ideal, due to the longer exposures needed for the best photos of them. Crossing into the arctic was exciting, and seeing the scenery change was interesting and kept me busy. The ship was relaxing, no parties to speak of, no big shows or traditional 'cruise' activities. Talks each day were fun and informative. The weather was warmer than I expected, though the wind was colder. The "small" towns were larger (and cleaner) than I expected. Norwegians in general were friendlier than I expected. The ship was nicer, warmer, more roomy than I expected. The crew was nicer and more helpful than I expected on this type of voyage. Oslo folks walked faster than I expected. Norway's trains are really nice. Havila's ship was great. Norwegian was harder to understand than I expected, but a lot of shipboard conversation was in German, which is easier for me. And nearly everyone spoke English. I really don't consider the trip a "cruise", but more a winter visit to Norway, with a coastal voyage up into the arctic and back. Nothing against full-on normal cruises, I like them fine, both river and ocean, but I like variety, and this was more of a hands-on trip since we designed it from scratch. In retrospect, I'd have added another day in Oslo (3 nights) at the beginning and another day in Bergen at the end (2 nights), but I'll have to save that for next time 8^).

I'm not sure where to go with this...for some reason, it just doesn't seem to register with some folks. What "plenty of upscale restaurants" do has nothing to do with what happens in Princess' dining rooms. There is no logic whatsoever that connects the two. Princess states on their website in multiple places what the dress standard is for the dining rooms. If you think it's silly, or antiquated, or ridiculous, then don't book a cruise on Princess. It's not complicated. If you think it's silly, antiquated, or ridiculous but realize that when you booked you agreed to the rules they set on their ship,. then act like a mature human being and go by the rules until they change them, if they do. Write 'em a letter, telling them you don't like the dress code, if it's that important to you. But the third choice is the problem...book with Princess, knowing what their dress requirements are, and just figuring you'll ignore them because you don't like them. These are the same people who disrupt flights, inconveniencing a whole plane full of people, because they're old spoiled brats that think "nobody's going to tell ME what I can do", regardless of whether they're on or in someone else's plane, boat, house, or whatever. One thing that keeps coming up is people reporting they "saw someone in shorts in the dining room of ..." What so many aren't understanding on this, is that nobody, including Princess employees, likes confrontations (well, most normal people anyway). When given a choice between confronting someone who may have had a few drinks, or acts belligerent, or just acting like they "didn't see it", many will avoid the confrontation unless someone points it out or complains, and that is understandable. But that doesn't mean it's OK, it just basically means no one wants to confront a spoiled brat who will probably make a scene if they don't have to.

Probably not, assuming wherever he sits down doesn't have a dress code that doesn't allow shorts, or requires collared shirts. That's up to the owner of the restaurant to decide, not him.

It's nice that's what you chose Princess for, but what does that have to do with anything? I'm wondering where you saw the fantasy you cite (?) It's a shame that you don't like what others wear when they're perhaps just trying to look nice the best they can, and go along with the rules of the cruise line they chose. I've never seen anyone turned away either, but then I don't sit and watch at the entrance to see. So what does that prove? Most people act maturely and try to respect the rules and norms of the ship they chose to travel on. Some think they make their own rules, like a spoiled kid. Yep, to some it's all about "me".

I assume you can read, so why go on Princess if you find it important to wear shorts in the dining room? Why not stick with the "40+ cruises other cruise lines" instead? Seems simple enough. I don't care much for dressy environments or having to change from shorts at dinnertime, but it's no big deal, and if I wasn't willing to do what they require in plain English, I'd go elsewhere. Or, you can listen to the ones that say to ignore the requirements and wear what you want, because it "doesn't bother "me", and those who don't like it can find another way to travel." Because, after all, it's all about "me".

Yes, but then you have a built-in excuse for the next trip. Now that we have all these nice cold-weather clothes, no sense letting them go to waste! So besides returning to Norway in winter to re-enjoy the voyage and "fill in" the things we didn't have enough time for, we might have to look into winter trips in Canada, Arctic, Antarctic, Greenland, Iceland and more. Lots of choices to avoid wasting these nice clothes...8^)

I think it's exactly what you said. There's a lot of brand loyalty among many who cruise, as you can find out on most any of the other lines' forums here. Hurtigruten is well-liked (even the former Hurtigruten employees on our Havila trip thought well of it), and people often feel more secure with an "old standby" than a newcomer. Then there was the fiasco after the Ukraine invasion, with the Capella being out of commission and the Castor still in limbo. Though it was due to some ties their finance companies had and the sanctions, I remember a post on one of these forums (or possibly at Tripadvisor) saying that maybe the oligarchs were getting a cut on their fare if they sailed on Havila. With all that, people were reluctant to book, and understandably so. I had already made a booking last February, and decided I was sticking with it, and am thrilled I did. And Hurtigruten has branched out in many other areas, and may not be that concerned about the basic coastal route (?). Their prices probably will go up when they are able to overcome the above...but in the meantime, I'll be happy to "help them out" 8^) At their prices and given the quality of the trip and the ships, I'll hope to be back a few times before the prices equalize.

Next question though, is "what happens then"? If the price is for Norwegians only, when address for the credit card and passport information is entered, it will become obvious. Would they cancel it when they found out? Or require the proper US price? Would you be worried about your planned trip maybe getting cancelled later? If so, would it be worth it? I think I remember from our shipboard "history" lessons, the Norwegian government having a lot to do with the establishment of this route, so perhaps there were subsidies etc., which might make it seem more logical to offer better prices to Norwegians, since their taxes would have helped with the subsidies, and to encourage them to use the service. Just some guesses, I don't know. But it's not that unusual to offer different prices for residents of certain areas...I know we get offers from Princess for discounted fares for Californians (for the local coast area cruises), Disneyland has lower entry offers for SoCal residents, etc.

I missed this before writing my earlier post. Just my opinion, but if you can possibly get a cabin with a window, do it! I looked at the cabins on the Vesteralen, and have to say I wouldn't be spending much time in the cabin either. But we left the curtains open in our cabin purposely so the lights from ports would maybe awaken us, and the late-night stops were interesting and fun to watch the ship come in, or the dock activity if you're on that side. With an inside cabin or blocked window view, you might feel like you're missing something every time you go in for a rest or a break, and you may have no clue even when you've entered, docked, and left a port. Certainly the lounges are great, but it's nice sometimes having a choice, and if one choice is just a box to sleep in, give it some thought. On an ocean cruise ship, maybe no big deal to not be able to see the empty ocean outside, but these trips are chock full of beautiful and interesting scenery and activity at all times of day or night.

I'd suggest going to both Hurtigruten and Havila websites and clicking through the booking process on a date you think would be likely for you. Take a look at the cabins they offer for the prices they give. I say this because I chose a random date (May 15, or near to it) with both and there was a big difference in price...to get even close to the price match, I had to choose an inside cabin on one, versus a balcony deluxe on the other. Or I could get a suite on one for the price of a window cabin with tiny window. Remember to check if the price is per person, or per cabin. The single supplement choices seemed limited, and prices didn't seem any better on the dates I checked. I'm checking from the US, I don't know if that matters or would be a different result. I'm with the round-trip-if-you-can group. I recently completed a round trip, and would have hated to been getting off in Kirkenes and leaving. The trip back was just as interesting to me, we saw places we didn't see because of night-day stop differences, and were able to get off the ship or do tours we couldn't on the other way. I don't know about the culture talks etc. on Hurtigruten, but on the Havila ship there was a briefing every day around 5:15, depending on stops etc., and it covered the upcoming day, tours, northern lights and upcoming stops, then on to local culture information, with an art info session to wind it up before dinner. The suggestions about the Bergensban and Flam railway are also good, certainly do that if you can...not sure what I'd choose if I could only do one or the other (Round Trip or Railway) but both are good choices. Best of luck with your choices, it's a wonderful trip and was a welcome change from a traditional cruise.

The first thing I learned in Oslo was that a scarf was a necessity. I never used or even owned a scarf, but fortunately we brought them and they were indispensable when the wind came up. While we got my wife a nice wool one, I took a fairly thick fleece one, inexpensive and it did the job fine. Makes a world of difference and it's easy to modify to suit the situation. Seems like everyone in Norway had a scarf. Another essential was a thick merino wool sweater. The one I got was called a 'waterfowl sweater' at LLBean and it was very warm yet wearable over a flannel shirt on the ship without getting too warm. Warm enough to step outside in the wind for a bit, for a photo etc., and a great layer. My wife thought she might have preferred a zip front version...these were pullover with a short zipper, but I was OK with the pullover. I brought several pairs of gloves...some very nice down-filled ski gloves which were great except not if you had to operate a camera or phone. I also brought some wool gloves from Amazon that were supposed to be liners for under mittens etc., but they were pretty warm, compact to put in a jacket pocket, and I used them more than any of the others just because I could slip them in a jacket pocket and still use the pocket. I also brought some thick wool mittens and some thicker wool-mix gloves that worked with phone screens, but really didn't use either. The down gloves worked well for serious cold or wet situations, the thinner wool ones for general use and convenience. A nice thick wool knit ski/watchcap was also essential because I could slip it in the other jacket pocket ready as needed. We found some on Amazon that were thick and warm, and they got a lot of use, and could be used under a hood. Also, an "Expedition hat", with ear flaps, faux-fur lined and with a buckle got a lot of use when it got colder. The knit cap would fit under it for a great combination when it got really cold. I brought a medium-weight merino wool base layer, pants and shirt, and used them when we knew we'd be outside a lot. Also one pair of lined pants...most of the time I'm fine with normal cargo or similar pants so one pair was enough, but these were nice...warm, and had zipper back and side pockets. Wife brought more than one pair. A small backpack was also an essential, for shore excursions or just walking around in port and carrying any 'layers' you might need. A couple of good umbrellas...(Repel wind resistant)..were handy now and then. The rain or sleet is cold and the wind didn't help, so getting wet is not the best idea. Coats/jackets...I brought 2 "heavy duty" jackets...an expensive hooded down jacket, which was very nice, warm, and did the job well. But also a pretty inexpensive ski jacket that turned out to be my favorite. It was also warm, but had a good assortment of pockets, a belt that would draw in in to keep wind out, sleeves would tighten up, and it could zip clear up my neck...in fact, I could draw it up to cover my nose, which I did a few times. The removeable hood was quick to put up and stayed in place, with velcro...much quicker to fasten than the down jacket's hood. While I started out using the down jacket, once I unpacked the ski jacket and tried it, it was all I used. I was surprised due to the low price, but it worked great. It was from Amazon, listed as "Wantdo Men's Mountain Waterproof Ski Jacket". Both jackets did the job fine, but I didn't need both. For boots, I brought my hiking boots I used in Yosemite...waterproof, and very comfortable along with tested for fit and broken in. They weren't particularly expensive, I think from Big5, but I was trying on boots to bring and when I slipped them on I knew they had to be the ones. I had travel shoes that slip on and off easily, so the boots traveled in the suitcase, which took up a lot of room, but they earned their space (and you can always pack stuff inside 8^). I also used merino wool socks at times, both thick and thin, both seemed fine to me, but one pair would have been OK. Other things: Bring stretch-over-shoe crampons (like YakTrax etc.), or they sell them on the ship, but streets get slippery. Take them with you when going ashore, and even the boat decks can get snowy/icy. Not knowing the snow/ice conditions or if we'd be doing much hiking, I also brought trekking poles for both of us. While I have tons of them, I wanted aluminum ones that came apart, and I prefer shorter ones. After looking at everything from hundreds of dollars to 20, I settled on some inexpensive Foxelli poles at Amazon that came in two sizes, came apart for travel, and hardly took any space. While it turned out we didn't need to use them, I would bring them again, because they can save slips and falls, knees and more, and it was nice having them along if needed. I also brought a balaklava, that I used a lot in Yosemite, which I didn't need but would bring again, as they replace scarves, neck gaiters, hoods etc. and really work well, besides not taking much room. Didn't mean to make this so long, but hope this helps; everyone's different, but this is just what we found useful and some of what we didn't use.