Completely OT, re: NW pilots

[mm25112]

Was this a smaller plane? Most I've flown on have a pilot, co-pilot and navigator. Where was the navigator during all this? He's usually the one doing a lot of the work during the flight.

[buckanear]

My bad, she was making $24 an hour and her yearly salary was $16,254 a year without extra flight time.

 

I just know how much their education costs, my dh was a com av student with a semester left at the University of North Dakota, and it darn sure wasn't cheap. He left right after 9/11 when even his friends who were gold seal instructors couldn't get a job.

[senrab]

Was this a smaller plane? Most I've flown on have a pilot, co-pilot and navigator. Where was the navigator during all this? He's usually the one doing a lot of the work during the flight.

 

Actually, most commercial aircraft put into service since the early 1990s have a two man crew. Others may be on board due to the length of a flight (crew rest/duty time requirements, typically seen on intercontinental flights), or deadheading (travelling from one city to another). Very seldom is a thrid crewmember actually working during the flight.

 

Specifically, the A320 aircraft like that used by Northwest 188, only requires (and carried) a two man cockpit crew. The three other crew members reported by media were flight attendants.

[spongerob]

Was this a smaller plane? Most I've flown on have a pilot, co-pilot and navigator. Where was the navigator during all this? He's usually the one doing a lot of the work during the flight.

He was in the back chatting with the tail gunner.

 

 

 

See, planes haven't had tail gunners for a long time, either.

[Gonzo70]

Was this a smaller plane? Most I've flown on have a pilot, co-pilot and navigator. Where was the navigator during all this? He's usually the one doing a lot of the work during the flight.

 

It was a regional jet - approximate capacity of 50 passengers, three flight attendants, Captain and First Officer. Only very, very large planes or very lengthy flights would have something beyond a Captain and First Officer in the flight deck.

[Gonzo70]

My bad, she was making $24 an hour and her yearly salary was $16,254 a year without extra flight time.

 

I just know how much their education costs, my dh was a com av student with a semester left at the University of North Dakota, and it darn sure wasn't cheap. He left right after 9/11 when even his friends who were gold seal instructors couldn't get a job.

 

Yes, those are the correct figures. The numbers work out to about a 13 hour per week job - which explains why she was living with her parents. I probably would be too if I was working 13 hours a week! ;)

[ccletzgo]

I know this is OT, but thought I'd post about the NW flight from SAN to MSP. This thread will most likely get pulled, but since many of us fly to our embarkation cities, I'd just like to make a comment.

 

The pilot and co-pilot have had their flight licenses revoked. (Good!) They flew 150 miles beyond MSP, and were out of radio contact for 78 minutes. When interviewed by the FAA, they apparently stated that: They were on their laptops to look at NW/Delta flight crew scheduling, and ignored repeated attempts at radio contact. Apparently, pilots a nd co-pilots ARE allowed access to private laptops in the cockpit for pre-programmed in-flight issues..regarding the actual plane.

l

Here's what I think:

These guys fell asleep! They tried to use the excuse of being allowed to use their personal laptops, but twisted it into researching "scheduling" rather than the programmed plane in-flight info. They both just snoozed too long, and it took a flight attendant to wake them up! NW offered each passenger a whopping $500.00 toward a future flight. Auto-pilot is a good thing. Or not. These guys just slept for over an hour, and then tried to make excuses. Is the FAA looking at their laptops to determine if each pilot was actually logged on? If so, what website?

 

This is just my opinion. My next flight is scheduled on United. I'm not worried, because I think that all domestic pilots have gotten a major "Heads Up"!

 

I believe the pilots fell asleep. There union rep told them what to say and the FAA is going to accept there excuse because its a better excuse for the public to hear, then falling asleep. And NO, I highly doubt they are looking at there lap tops. They lost there license's period. The FAA doesn't care about there laptops. All they care about is the fact that they did not have proper control of there equipment for an extended period of time..no matter what it was that they were doing.

[ccletzgo]

These pilots made a whole lot more than $18 per hour. The captain made $155 per hour and the first officer made about $104 per hour. Also, as the plane flew across the country, the pilots would have had to change frequencies to different air traffic controllers. If they missed the instruction to change frequency, they would not have been able to hear any requests for communication. Northwest would have sent them a text, but if they were not watching their instrumenrt (which we know they weren't) they would not have known. I in no way am trying to excuse these men. I agree that they needed their licences revoked and don't need to be working as pilots. I just wanted to set the record straight.

 

your right and its not rare that air traffic control forgets to hand them over.

[lovesublime]

I would like to correct a few misconceptions here about pilots. The $18.00 an hr. (give or take) is what a new first officer at a regional would be making to start off. Yes, it's low. Pilots salaries are directly related to seniority and size of aircraft. The more years working and the bigger the plane-the more money they make. At every airline, each pilot is given a seniority number- as pilots retire, quit or otherwise-pilots will move up in seniority. Some airlines have longer upgrade times than others.

 

Also, most airliners today do not use a navigator (they are called flight engineers). However, really long flights (use your imagination) do carry three or more pilots so they can take turns sleeping. In fact, the larger aircraft have crew bunks for sleeping.

[chaswelf]

What I find most amazing about this is the whole public relations spin Delta has put on it. Since there is no longer a Northwest Airlines this is really a Delta problem but I'll bet no one has heard a news report, "Delta pilots over shoot their destination".

 

Delta has done a marvelous job of taking advantage of the fact that not all the planes have been re-painted or all the signage changed around the country yet.

 

Great Job Delta public relations on ducking this one...

[Colorado Kat]

Scary stuff - I believe that the pilots had fallen asleep - you just can't get that engrossed in "scheduling" stuff. However, I am very impressed with the autopilot system. Is it right to assume that there would be loud noises from the autopilot if bad things had been detected?

 

Kathy

[powelweb]

According to some news stories I saw yesterday, the company has a data link to the cockpit that makes a loud "bing." So, if I understand you correctly, there is the audible alert you suggested. I also saw an "interview" with the filght attendant who eventually got their attention. She said she had no trouble getting the crew's attention. My question is, how are the flight attendants in the back supposed to know there is a problem? My suggestion would be adding someway for the ground to contact the flight attendants in the back of the plane so they know the pilots aren't responding. Perhaps extending the airline's data link to the cabin so that a light could be turned on [and maybe a "bing" but nothing to cause undue alarm] to let the flight attendants know the ground is trying to contact the crew.

 

I'm actually surprised that the flight attendants in back didn't take action sooner if they were running so late to begin the descent- weren't they an hour late once they had to backtrack back to the MSP?

[curley23]

Yah think?:D

 

People make mistakes. I have no problem with what the FAA did, but two families have probably lost their primary income, and I do feel sorry for the pilots despite their bad actions. Do you realize in many countries pilots are allowed to sleep while in the cockpit?

 

jc

 

I quite agree with you jc. People do make mistakes, unfortunately for these guys it was in a cockpit of a plane in flight. It seems most here want to see these guys tarred and feathered to boot.

I wonder how every one would feel if there would have been some type of emergency and these guys got the plane down in one piece with no one hurt, despite their miscue. I guess then they would be heros??

[wraithe]

Don't be surprised if these guys get their licenses back after a period of time. They'll probably have to do some "training" and go through a period of observation, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they get their licenses and maybe even their jobs back once the investigation is complete. The FAA has pulled their licenses while they investigate, if it turns out that they can't "prove" the pilots were negligent, then if the FAA doesn't restore their licenses, they'll likely sue and the court will force restoration. To quote a movie, they may be flying "rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong", but I'd make a gentleman's bet that they'll fly again.

[mm25112]

Actually, most commercial aircraft put into service since the early 1990s have a two man crew. Others may be on board due to the length of a flight (crew rest/duty time requirements, typically seen on intercontinental flights), or deadheading (travelling from one city to another). Very seldom is a thrid crewmember actually working during the flight.

 

Specifically, the A320 aircraft like that used by Northwest 188, only requires (and carried) a two man cockpit crew. The three other crew members reported by media were flight attendants.

 

Thanks for the info. I used to jump seat on cargo planes and we always had a 3rd officer. Only our puddle jumpers have two officers.

 

A third officer would have a least answered the radio calls :-).

[mm25112]

I would like to correct a few misconceptions here about pilots. The $18.00 an hr. (give or take) is what a new first officer at a regional would be making to start off. Yes, it's low. Pilots salaries are directly related to seniority and size of aircraft. The more years working and the bigger the plane-the more money they make. At every airline, each pilot is given a seniority number- as pilots retire, quit or otherwise-pilots will move up in seniority. Some airlines have longer upgrade times than others.

 

Also, most airliners today do not use a navigator (they are called flight engineers). However, really long flights (use your imagination) do carry three or more pilots so they can take turns sleeping. In fact, the larger aircraft have crew bunks for sleeping.

 

Oops, forgive me, I should have said flight engineer. You're right, the term navigators went away many, many years ago :-). I've learned a lot from this thread. Most large cargo planes also have a pilot, co-pilot, and flight engineer.

[emdia43]

Well I am on my PC at the moment and I can hear everything going on around me- so that excuse won't wash.

I don't fall asleep when I am working either...:(

[buckanear]

emdia, I wish I could just take a nap while I was at work. Mid-checkin just take an afternoon siesta!

 

I can't help but think that they would have been better off if they had just admitted they had fallen asleep. There wouldn't be all this speculation and the attention would have been focused on crew rest minimums and not what happened up there.

[GaryfmCol]

I flew for 40 years professionally.

 

I can tell you, that in 40 years there was a time or two

when we "lost" contact with Center. (A.T.C.) When that happened

we would always immediately re-establish contact.

 

Also, truthfully as I can be..when we went 10 minutes or so,

without contact...we would (and, everyone else did) would say

something to the effect.."Minneapolis Center...this is XXXXX (call-sign)

are you still with us?" We always had a comment from them..

No comments back, we started scrambling around to see what the

next "freq" was...or, what happened to "the guys.."

 

With me and, the crews I flew with...without a "contact"

by the particular A.T.C. controlling agency, every 10 minutes

or so, we started getting "antsy.." I never knew a crew

yet, that could possibly be off the "freq" for an hour and, a half.

Or, checking fuel to the destination...or, cross referencing

position. So many other cross referencing needs to be going on.

 

All of my years doing just that...I am mystified how that could

ever possibly happened...I still think there is more to the

story than we know. (Or, will know..)

 

Also, F.Y.I. The "audible tone" refered to earlier in this

thread is called SELCAL. On flying over water, (or places like Africa)

out of radar contact with anyone and, instead working

Oceanic Control, when the A.T.C. Oceanic wants to talk to you

on HF (High Frequency) they activate the SELCAL. This is because

listening on HF is all static usually. When the SELCAL goes off,

that is where the "DING" comes in..),

you just contact the Oceanic Control on the proper frequency.

SELCAL is not used too much in the U.S.A. The cockpits

have data links from company that go off if they want to contact

you..It appears as a message on a screen...however, if no one

is paying attention to business the data link messages

mean nothing at all.

 

These guys will have their Airline Transport Certificates pulled

for sure. If it stands up against their most certain appeal, they

can re-apply for their certificate in a years time...However,

as the Commander in "TOP-GUN" told "Maverick" (Tom Cruise)

they will probably only be able to get a job flying rubber doggie

doo (sic) on a cargo plane flying out of Hong Kong...." which is probably

true for these guys....

 

There are alot of good posts on this thread and everyone interested,

in this subject...

 

No one hardly goes for a cruise without flying to the port.

Our closest port from Denver requires flying to get there...

and, our closest port would be...Seattle, San Pedro, San Diego,

Houston..ect...nothing is close to us and, we will fly to get there.

 

I have been flying since 1963 and, I have always found it to be very safe

and, 99.5% of the crews you fly with are professionals and,

know their careers very well.

 

I would not worry...

(I was one of those low paid pilot too way back when..:p )

[buckanear]

Thank you for that insight Gary!!! Ever since I've read "Blind Trust" and listened to pilot banter with my dh's friends, I've hated flying. Takes a lot of liquor, :P Thoughts of aeroperu, aeroflot, Air Alaska (81 seconds in a spiraled nose dive *hurl*) freak me out.

 

Yeah, I know the statistics. I'm in a statistics in psychology class right now and it emphasizes that correlation does not imply causation so the statistics don't comfort me right now :D

 

And I see you'll be on the VOS a few times this season, make sure to pop by and see me!

[joan_al]

Don't be surprised if these guys get their licenses back after a period of time. They'll probably have to do some "training" and go through a period of observation, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they get their licenses and maybe even their jobs back once the investigation is complete. The FAA has pulled their licenses while they investigate, if it turns out that they can't "prove" the pilots were negligent, then if the FAA doesn't restore their licenses, they'll likely sue and the court will force restoration. To quote a movie, they may be flying "rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong", but I'd make a gentleman's bet that they'll fly again.

Absolutely, I'll take a guess in about 6-12 months they will have them back.

They need a better union, their pay stinks. They should be starting around $60 an hour. Responsible for the aircraft and over 150 passengers. Make it $100 bucks an hour. Don't like it walk.

[rubrrick]

These pilots made a whole lot more than $18 per hour. The captain made $155 per hour and the first officer made about $104 per hour. Also, as the plane flew across the country, the pilots would have had to change frequencies to different air traffic controllers. If they missed the instruction to change frequency, they would not have been able to hear any requests for communication. Northwest would have sent them a text, but if they were not watching their instrumenrt (which we know they weren't) they would not have known. I in no way am trying to excuse these men. I agree that they needed their licences revoked and don't need to be working as pilots. I just wanted to set the record straight.

 

I wonder where you came up with that amount for a captain and first officer.

 

If you want to make those figures work..........let's be honest and tell the folks in the cruising industry.......how many hours a captain and first officer work....per month.

 

It would be appreciated that you put that into hours per year.......or annual salary.

 

I know what most unionized Captains and First Officers make per year.

 

On some airlines..........it's not as much as a Captain on RCCL makes.

 

Rick

[GaryfmCol]

Thank you for that insight Gary!!! Ever since I've read "Blind Trust" and listened to pilot banter with my dh's friends, I've hated flying. Takes a lot of liquor, :P Thoughts of aeroperu, aeroflot, Air Alaska (81 seconds in a spiraled nose dive *hurl*) freak me out.

 

Yeah, I know the statistics. I'm in a statistics in psychology class right now and it emphasizes that correlation does not imply causation so the statistics don't comfort me right now :D

 

And I see you'll be on the VOS a few times this season, make sure to pop by and see me!

 

 

Have you EVER won the lottery?

Would you want to win it? (Of course...)

Do you THINK you'll really win it? (Of course NOT!)

 

Your chances of winning the lottery are greater

than being in a fatal aircraft accident.

 

I flew for well past 23,000+ hours...

Never anything more scary than being

struck by lightning about 7 times... :o

(I lost count!)

 

You are in Galveston, I seem to remember...

 

Galveston is one of our closest ports..

We fly into IAH.

(Tells you who we DON'T fly..;)

 

Now, the scary part begins..

riding the freeways down to Galveston..:rolleyes:

Once we get there, the BEST part is eating the

Fried Oysters at Gaido's... YUM!

[buckanear]

LOL, you're the greatest Gary. My rational brain gets that the chances of something bad happening are really low, but my irrational brain says that the chances of that one thing bad happening will probably be fatal takes over. I mean, a piece of tape causing a crash, it's no wonder I'm neurotic. Marrying a pilot was probably a bad idea. Good thing he decided med school was better.

 

No one ever said I was "normal" lol.

[curley23]

Well I am on my PC at the moment and I can hear everything going on around me- so that excuse won't wash.

I don't fall asleep when I am working either...:(

 

I'll bet you are not in the cockpit of an A320 going 550 mph at 35,000 ft. when on your PC. Evidently you never have, so you would not know how loud it is in there. If they were not wearing headsets, like they said, and had their speaker volume low enough, they would not have heard anything but the air rushing outside. It does not excuse them from admitting that they broke policies, however no need to speculate either. Why not just let the investigators work it out, then make your comments after the investigation is over.

How do you know they were sleeping, were you there??