Completely OT, re: NW pilots

[MMCS Cruiser]

Yah think?:D

 

People make mistakes. I have no problem with what the FAA did, but two families have probably lost their primary income, and I do feel sorry for the pilots despite their bad actions. Do you realize in many countries pilots are allowed to sleep while in the cockpit?

 

jc

 

Don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

A lot of people could have been killed.

 

And they will probably be flying cargo planes within a year.

[cruiseknots]

A typical pilot's schedule is about 75-90 hrs per month. Now that is "block hours" which is the time from when the plane pushes back to the time the brake is set at the gate. This does not include the hour "show time" prior to the flight, any delays between flights, transportation to and from the hotel, etc.

 

I can't imagine those guys being awake and not hearing SELCAL or other ATC requests. This is almost impossible. On the A320, the SELCAL is very loud. So loud, that it is sometimes startling when not expecting it. Even if you missed a frequency change, you can still be contacted via ACARS which is similar to getting a text msg and can be sent with an audible tone such as SELCAL.

 

There is a much bigger problem in the industry than pilots being distracted by lap tops which gets very little media coverage or attention from the FAA. Fatigue. Fatigue is a huge problem for flight crews and has been for many years. If those guys were asleep, they should have just fessed up and blamed it on fatigue.

 

Current FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations) allow pilots to work up to 16 hrs per day and longer. It's been well documented that pilot performance after being awake 16 hrs is at the equivalent of having a few adult drinks. Although, this is not the norm, 12-14 hr days are pretty standard. The minimum rest required by FAR's is 8 hrs. This 8 hrs usually starts 15 mins after "block in" and ends upon show time at the airport at the start of the next duty period.

 

Here is an example of a scheduled rest period of 8 hrs. Let's say a crew is scheduled for a trip that arrives at 10:00pm and departs again the following morning at 7:15am, a legal rest period. They arrive at the gate at their destination at 10:00pm. By the time all the passengers have deplaned and the aircraft is put to bed, It's already 10:20 at best. They are already 5 mins into their required rest and haven't even gotten off the plane.

 

Now they make the 5-10 min walk to the hotel pick up area. It's now 10:30. They wait 10-20 mins for the hotel van to arrive. They drive to the hotel is 10 mins. They arrive at the hotel and its now 11:00pm. How many of us can come home from work and be in bed and asleep in 5 mins? Probably very few. Pilots are no different. By the time you check in, take the elevator and walk to your room it's now 11:10pm. You take 20 mins to get out of your uniform, brush your teeth and get into bed. If you're lucky, you are asleep by 11:30pm. Because of your 7:15am departure, your 1 hour show is 6:15am. This means a 5:45am pickup at the hotel. So the alarm must be set no later than 5:00am to give you time to wake up, shower, get dressed and be in the lobby usually 5 mins before pick up time. Notice that I didn't even allow for time to grab a bite to eat or call home to check in. All of this is perfectly legal and allowed by our current FAR's. Now this is not a typical day, but does happen quite a bit.

 

This is what the public outrage and media should be focused on. Fatigue has been a contributing factor in far more accidents/incidents than pilot distractions. Imagine Capt Sully trying to perform his heroics after 5 hrs of sleep in a time zone that is 3 hours different from his home.

 

Also, it is not uncommon at all to miss a "frequency change". It's normally not a big deal and can happen for several reasons. ATC can forget to hand you off to the next controller because of a saturated work load on his/her part. Normally you are back in contact with someone within a few minutes.

[cruiseknots]

Well I am on my PC at the moment and I can hear everything going on around me- so that excuse won't wash.

I don't fall asleep when I am working either...:(

 

 

Anyone who has ever flown knows that an airplane is much noisier than an office or living room, so I'm not sure I understand your comparison.

 

Also, there have been many studies that show that the noise and sounds created by an airplane in flight are naturally fatiguing. This explains why that crying baby or noisy child seated next to you is usually out cold by the time you reach cruising altitude. Combine this with 5 hrs of sleep after a 13 hr previous day and you have a pretty potent recipe for a siesta, that is if you're human

[senrab]

It was a regional jet - approximate capacity of 50 passengers, three flight attendants, Captain and First Officer. Only very, very large planes or very lengthy flights would have something beyond a Captain and First Officer in the flight deck.

 

It was not a regional jet. It was an Airbus A320 and (on this particular day) carried 144 passengers and 5 crew. Even on long flights, only two crew members are "working" at any given time. The others, while possibly in the cockpit, are off duty and are resting.

[GaryfmCol]

A typical pilot's schedule is about 75-90 hrs per month. Now that is "block hours" which is the time from when the plane pushes back to the time the brake is set at the gate. This does not include the hour "show time" prior to the flight, any delays between flights, transportation to and from the hotel, etc.

 

I can't imagine those guys being awake and not hearing SELCAL or other ATC requests. This is almost impossible. On the A320, the SELCAL is very loud. So loud, that it is sometimes startling when not expecting it. Even if you missed a frequency change, you can still be contacted via ACARS which is similar to getting a text msg and can be sent with an audible tone such as SELCAL.

 

There is a much bigger problem in the industry than pilots being distracted by lap tops which gets very little media coverage or attention from the FAA. Fatigue. Fatigue is a huge problem for flight crews and has been for many years. If those guys were asleep, they should have just fessed up and blamed it on fatigue.

 

Current FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations) allow pilots to work up to 16 hrs per day and longer. It's been well documented that pilot performance after being awake 16 hrs is at the equivalent of having a few adult drinks. Although, this is not the norm, 12-14 hr days are pretty standard. The minimum rest required by FAR's is 8 hrs. This 8 hrs usually starts 15 mins after "block in" and ends upon show time at the airport at the start of the next duty period.

 

Here is an example of a scheduled rest period of 8 hrs. Let's say a crew is scheduled for a trip that arrives at 10:00pm and departs again the following morning at 7:15am, a legal rest period. They arrive at the gate at their destination at 10:00pm. By the time all the passengers have deplaned and the aircraft is put to bed, It's already 10:20 at best. They are already 5 mins into their required rest and haven't even gotten off the plane.

 

Now they make the 5-10 min walk to the hotel pick up area. It's now 10:30. They wait 10-20 mins for the hotel van to arrive. They drive to the hotel is 10 mins. They arrive at the hotel and its now 11:00pm. How many of us can come home from work and be in bed and asleep in 5 mins? Probably very few. Pilots are no different. By the time you check in, take the elevator and walk to your room it's now 11:10pm. You take 20 mins to get out of your uniform, brush your teeth and get into bed. If you're lucky, you are asleep by 11:30pm. Because of your 7:15am departure, your 1 hour show is 6:15am. This means a 5:45am pickup at the hotel. So the alarm must be set no later than 5:00am to give you time to wake up, shower, get dressed and be in the lobby usually 5 mins before pick up time. Notice that I didn't even allow for time to grab a bite to eat or call home to check in. All of this is perfectly legal and allowed by our current FAR's. Now this is not a typical day, but does happen quite a bit.

 

This is what the public outrage and media should be focused on. Fatigue has been a contributing factor in far more accidents/incidents than pilot distractions. Imagine Capt Sully trying to perform his heroics after 5 hrs of sleep in a time zone that is 3 hours different from his home.

 

Also, it is not uncommon at all to miss a "frequency change". It's normally not a big deal and can happen for several reasons. ATC can forget to hand you off to the next controller because of a saturated work load on his/her part. Normally you are back in contact with someone within a few minutes.

 

 

Hey Cruise...

I used to bid those trips..

Show at 5 P.M. fly a leg or two out of MIA

to somewhere...go to hotel, check-in.

Watch Jay Leno, read the paper, plan on a

cruise someday..sleep, get up, show at aerodrome

for a 6:30 AM, back in MIA by 7:30 A.M. Bingo......

my 15 hours complete.

 

We called them "stand-up overnights.."

 

Return at 5 P.M. to start over again...4 days...then, catch the first

ride MIA - DEN.

 

When I got home to DEN before noon, my days off don't

start until "tomorrow.."

I never minded that.

 

When I returned to duty, leave DEN early AM.

Arrive at MIA ops in middle of afternoon and, await show/departure time.

 

I got paid my "minimum" hours..I flew 40 per month..

got paid for 80...not a bad deal.

I did not need the hours to build.

The overtime would have been nice

but, not the hours to fly to get there.

I prefered being home in DEN than being anywhere else.

 

Oh..B-T-W...on the 4 duty days between 8 - 5 P.M.

I slept in a "crash pad" in MIA....getting ready for that big

"stand up overnight".. We got paid per diem then too,

to sleep in a hotel, the company paid for. :D

 

This was just the way we did it at the time..

Sure beat being on "reserve.."

[LeesSummitCruiser1]

The best pilot in the cockpit is AUTO.

[Gonzo70]

It was not a regional jet. It was an Airbus A320 and (on this particular day) carried 144 passengers and 5 crew. Even on long flights, only two crew members are "working" at any given time. The others, while possibly in the cockpit, are off duty and are resting.

 

You are talking about a different flight than I was. I was responding to a post about the plane crash (that was a regional jet carrying 49 passengers) and not to the flight where the pilots flew past the aiport.

[imsulin]

Many, many thanks to all of you responded to my post! I know it's still a hot topic, and I appreciate your replies. I've been following the news about this, and at first it was reported that they were out of contact for 78 minutes, and was later determined they were out of contact for 91 minutes. IMO, the reason they used the "laptop" excuse is because, apparently, pilots are allowed to use them to retrieve information about their particular aircraft/flight. To admit that they were both, at the same time, using their respective laptops to check on flight crew schedules, was just an attempt to exaggerate this "permission", and they used this as their excuse. If they admitted that they both fell asleep, they'd have a far less chance of being booted than if they said they were on their laptops, which is partially allowed. Initially, it was reported that there was a "heated argument between the two regarding NW/Delta policy." That excuse quickly and conveniently disappeared. That's why I asked if the FAA might have confiscated their laptops to see if they were both actually logged on during this 91-minute non-contact time period. Bottom line: IMO both of these guys just fell asleep! They just don't want to admit it. The pilot who was briefly interviewed right after the incident looked just a few years younger than me - definitely no spring chicken! I assume from this that he had a lot of experience under his belt. My prediction is that they'll be fired. I hope so! I also hope that they'll never receive their license back....but they might. There's an Appeals Process available to them. Scary! Once again, thanks to all who have posted.

 

Cruisecritic: Thank you for allowing this thread to continue.

[buckanear]

You are talking about a different flight than I was. I was responding to a post about the plane crash (that was a regional jet carrying 49 passengers) and not to the flight where the pilots flew past the aiport.

Yup, sorry if I caused any confusion!

[GaryfmCol]

The best pilot in the cockpit is AUTO.

 

 

His name is correctly spelled "OTTO".... :D

He is a great help...

Plus, he has a female helper (voice) that called out warnings to us...

We called her "Bitchin Betty.." :rolleyes:

[kooljamming]

Don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

A lot of people could have been killed.

 

And they will probably be flying cargo planes within a year.

 

I agree. You have mistakes and then plain carelessness and disregard for the lives of so many people, possible children. When you foolishly jeopardize the lives of children, my sympathy goes out the door. I would have felt differently if they fell asleep but that is a long time for 2 people to be on their lap top while flying a plane...JMOP!

[CruisinManiac]

My DH thinks that the pilots and flight attendants were all in the cock-pit together. Use your imagination. :rolleyes:

 

This certainly was a scary situation and something I had never thought about when flying. This incident will make me think twice about flying in the future.

 

Glad the passengers are being compensated, even so, I am sure there will also be many lawsuits come out of this. :rolleyes:

 

People make mistakes. I have no problem with what the FAA did, but two families have probably lost their primary income, and I do feel sorry for the pilots despite their bad actions.

 

Had the plane crashed, and all the passengers killed, how many families would have lost their loved ones AND a possible primary source of income? :eek:

[Ocean Boy]

My DH thinks that the pilots and flight attendants were all in the cock-pit together. Use your imagination. :rolleyes:

 

This certainly was a scary situation and something I had never thought about when flying. This incident will make me think twice about flying in the future.

 

Glad the passengers are being compensated, even so, I am sure there will also be many lawsuits come out of this. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Had the plane crashed, and all the passengers killed, how many families would have lost their loved ones AND a possible primary source of income? :eek:

 

Why? Was any one injured? Oh I know, it is the emotional damage that they need to be compensated for. It is amazing to me how money fixes that damage so readily.

[xpcdoojk]

Why? Was any one injured? Oh I know, it is the emotional damage that they need to be compensated for. It is amazing to me how money fixes that damage so readily.

 

True Dat!

 

jc

[wraithe]

Why? Was any one injured? Oh I know, it is the emotional damage that they need to be compensated for. It is amazing to me how money fixes that damage so readily.

 

I believe they're being compensated for missed connections and such as that, haven't heard anything about other compensation, although I wouldn't be surprised.

[temple1]

Why? Was any one injured? Oh I know, it is the emotional damage that they need to be compensated for. It is amazing to me how money fixes that damage so readily.

 

I think the attitude that there will be lots of law suits, is the reason so many think the courts are being abused by frivolous suits. Even though not one single mention has been made of an actual lawsuit the idea is out there that there will be.

 

I think if we ever knew how many/few frivolous suits are filed (and in medical malpractice alone the numbers have dropped significantly) many corporate suits would be out of jobs. I have a theory that the idea of Americans being sue happy is mostly propogated by large companies and corporate lawyers who want among other things - to keep their corner offices and to bring about "tort reform" also known as - taking away our fundamental rights to seek redress for damages in court. And no I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on television.

[seatraveler1]

.

 

Cruisecritic: Thank you for allowing this thread to continue.

 

And this part is what I don't understand about the monitors. Laura, please move this clutter out of the Royal Caribbean cruise board!

[CruisinManiac]

Why? Was any one injured? Oh I know, it is the emotional damage that they need to be compensated for. It is amazing to me how money fixes that damage so readily.

 

Exactly why I used the rolleyes :rolleyes: icon with my statement.;) I am in no way promoting that people file lawsuits.

 

[And this part is what I don't understand about the monitors. Laura, please move this clutter out of the Royal Caribbean cruise board! /QUOTE]

I suppose this should be moved to the air board, but I have enjoyed reading what others think of this incident.

[Ocean Boy]

And this part is what I don't understand about the monitors. Laura, please move this clutter out of the Royal Caribbean cruise board!

 

It was moved days ago to the floataway lounge. That is why there have been no new posters. No one can find the thread except those of us who are already subscribed to it... and those people who actually go to that area of C.C.

[Ocean Boy]

Exactly why I used the rolleyes :rolleyes: icon with my statement.;) I am in no way promoting that people file lawsuits.

 

I realized that you were not promoting it. I"m sorry if my response came across otherwise.

[alwayshappytocruise]

And this part is what I don't understand about the monitors. Laura, please move this clutter out of the Royal Caribbean cruise board!

 

Totally agree....how about Floataway??

Lynda

[Ocean Boy]

Totally agree....how about Floataway??

Lynda

 

See post #71 above.

[NordicPrince]

And this part is what I don't understand about the monitors. Laura, please move this clutter out of the Royal Caribbean cruise board!

 

This thread becomes relevant because a large number of RCI cruise passengers fly to their port of embarkation, they want to start their vacations in a safe and worry-free manner and also rely on a timely transfer to meet their ship on time. I know my DW would be in a panic

if something like this were to happen on our day of departure ( which why she always insists we fly in a day early "because you never know"! )

 

It also ties in to the trust we place on individuals who transport us

such as airline pilots and Captains of cruise ships. We assume that they are performing their duties in a competant manner.

 

Can you imagine the content and size of a thread on CC board if a RCI Captain were to overshoot an island by 150 miles and delay arrival in port resulting in people missing planned excursions and VST (valuable shopping time) being lost? My God it would make War and Peace look like like

a 200 word essay !!

 

As far as compensation for passengers, you get compensated by the airline for your time and inconvenience if you were to get bumped from your scheduled flight and voluntarily or involuntarily have to take a later flight. I would assume the same principle applies here.

 

I also assume that you have never been on a plane where there have been mechanical or operational problems and you do not find out until you

are safely on the ground. I was on a plane which landed with the airport's

emergency and fire equipment lining our runway. I discovered upon landing that the nose cone had fallen off in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and the crew was unsure what else had fallen off with it! After kissing the ground I can tell you that my first thought was NOT to sue the airline !

[alwayshappytocruise]

See post #71 above.

 

Hmmm...interesting but wierd!! Usually a thread doesn't show up in two places does it? Thought the mods put a "moved" thingy on the original site.

Thanks, Lynda

[Ocean Boy]

Hmmm...interesting but wierd!! Usually a thread doesn't show up in two places does it? Thought the mods put a "moved" thingy on the original site.

Thanks, Lynda

 

Actually I just noticed that it is back on the RCI board from the Floataway lounge. Maybe the mods decided that they didn't want to see the thread floataway, or flyaway, after all.

 

Maybe we will pick up some new posters now.