Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[TLCOhio]

From the New York Times today, they have this headline: "Greek Rail System’s Debt Adds to Economic Woes" with these highlights: "Now, as a condition of Greece’s financial rescue, the International Monetary Fund is demanding that a solution be found. The fund and the European Union, which also chipped in to provide the bailout, are requiring that the debt of Hellenic Railways, as well as the off-balance-sheet obligations of other state-owned enterprises, be counted toward Greece’s official debt — which Greece has agreed to do. Some have argued that Hellenic Railways should shut down the majority of its routes, especially in the mountainous Peloponnese region where trains manned by drivers being paid as much as $130,000 a year frequently run empty."

 

You can read the full and interesting background story at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/business/global/21rail.html?hpw

 

This reporting gives more details on how Greece got into its current "situation" and some of what it will take to "fix" things there. It's a great country with a wonderful history. We want to there again when things are better and more stable.

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[islandmandan]

The Greek government was caught with its hands in the cookie jar. The past administration was incredibly corrupt and with the help of US banks led Greece to the situation they are in now. Unfortunately, the time to warn the US would have been a few years ago, before we reduced regulations on the banks and Wall Street. A bit late now...

 

Every economic student can tell you that borrowing money to create jobs and help a lagging economy is a good thing...its how businesses get started in the first place. However, when a government is corrupt and hides money and investments from its own populace, using the money to build up an artificial wealth in Greece, that is where the problems occur. Now the Greek people are dealing with severe austerity measures and the strikes are a result of this. My guess is if the rich folks in the US decided to force the rest of us to work for lower wages, cut teachers dramatically, took away much of our benefits, cut police and other essential services, we would take to the streets too. Well, only if there isn't some reality show playing on TV....

 

I don't blame the Greek people.

 

This, however, is not a place to come for politics. I don't know if there is a forum for that here, but there should be because I get tired of all the remarks I see sometimes here. The US is very divided right now. Do we have to deal with that on a cruise forum?

 

Hey rian90, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I too am tired of the one sided politics this thread has generated by some on this site {although I think that TLCOhio has done a good job of keeping to facts and leaving opinions out}. My suggestion would be to keep politics off this site, period!!!

[rian90]

TLCOhio has done a great job. :) Thank you, TLCOhio, for keeping us posted on how the issues in Athens may affect us. That is the sort of stuff that belongs here.

[Fblack]

Striking truck drivers have caused a huge gas shortage all over Greece. This is ugly.

 

July 30th: Greek Truckers to Continue Strike

 

ATHENS—Greek truckers decided on Friday to continue a crippling, five-day strike that has led to widespread fuel shortages and further dented the country's image in the midst of Greece's all-important summer tourist season.

 

The strike has led to severe fuel shortages around the country and massive lines at gas stations. Local media reports that more than 95% of gas stations in the greater Athens area are out of fuel, and the majority of them in the northern city of Thessaloniki have also run dry.

 

On some of Greece's islands and in its remote rural areas, the shortages of fuel and some goods are even more acute....On the island of Crete, some hoteliers said there is little fuel for buses to take tourists to the airport for their return flights. In northern Greece, thousands of Eastern European tourists have been stranded, unable to drive back home, while others have abandoned their rental cars on the sides of roads after running out of fuel.

 

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703999304575399101198858216.html

[TLCOhio]

TLCOhio has done a great job. :) Thank you, TLCOhio, for keeping us posted on how the issues in Athens may affect us. That is the sort of stuff that belongs here.

 

fblack: ATHENS—Greek truckers decided on Friday to continue a crippling' date=' five-day strike that has led to widespread fuel shortages and further dented the country's image in the midst of Greece's all-important summer tourist season. [/quote']

 

THANKS, rian90, for the nice comments! Appreciate the added info from fblack. It's sad what is happening in Greece.

 

From the New York Times yesterday, they have this headline: "European Bank Stress Tests Worked: Sort Of" with these highlights: "Bank stocks rose in the past week, and the risk premiums on European government debt fell — particularly for Spain. Several large banks successfully issued bonds. The euro, the ultimate barometer of global investors’ faith in the common currency, strengthened against the dollar. While most market signals were positive, one money-market indicator created a nagging doubt about whether the stress tests would achieve their ultimate goal of loosening up the amount of credit available to European business and consumers. "

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/business/global/31stress.html?src=busln

 

Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[Fblack]

Sorry, but I had to laugh at this one.

 

Saturday, 31 July 2010 : Hell in Greece, Vacationers Can Not Go Home

 

If you selected Greece for your vacationing this summer, you probably can not read this because you are stuck for days at a gas station...

 

Resorts in Northern Greece due to constant strikes have managed to trap more than a hundred thousand tourists from Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, because no gas station is working, thus tourists are unable to return, according to Greek newspaper "Express".

 

 

Some vacationers who brought extra cash had prolong their stay in hotels, others are forced to sleep in cars. Hotel owners have complained that due to the situation thousands have canceled their reservations. Only hotels in Piraeus claim this week there had been 25 thousand cancellations.

 

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16163/46/

[Mrs Miggins]

Just returned from 2 weeks in Kefelonia - peaceful and beautiful - locals say they are not so busy as before - but plenty of tourists - petrol (gas) cheaper than in the UK - No problems at airport - in fact no problems visible at all.

On cruise in Oct - do not think there will be any problems on our itinerary (Corfu, Mykonos, Kotokolon - may be a liitle more problematic in Athens - but rest assured the Greeks want you there to spend as much in the local economy as possible - yet another reason to avoid ships tours and benefit the locals more directly.

[TLCOhio]

From the Wall Street Journal online at 4 pm today, they have this headline: "Greek Truckers End Strike" with these highlights: "Striking Greek truck drivers voted to halt a weeklong walkout, ending one of the more severe tests of the government's ambitious overhaul agenda. After a stormy, four-hour meeting late Sunday, Greece's umbrella truckers union, the Federation of Overland Commercial Transporters, narrowly voted to end their protest and announced that its members would return to work starting early Monday. The vote comes even as fuel shortages stemming from the strike eased further Sunday as some truckers complied with the government's work order ahead of the union vote, and the military joined efforts to resupply hospitals, power plants and airports around the country. The strike, which began July 25, has led to severe fuel shortages around the country, brought misery to thousands of holiday travelers and businesses, and further dented Greece's image in the midst of its all-important summer tourist season."

 

The key question is on what's next in Greece and what impacts will it have? It is good that Mrs Miggins had positive results.

 

This story also notes: "While the strike has proved to be particularly disruptive, many analysts fear it foreshadows similar protests from other cosseted professional groups working in Greece's so-called closed professions. These include pharmacists, lawyers and engineers, among others."

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704702304575403312114219860.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLEFifthNews

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[Fblack]

I am not sure I totally believe this, but it's something to consider.

 

1 August 2010: Greece will be a war zone, Sect of Revolutionaries warns tourists. Security forces fear wave of terror as austerity program provokes strikes, protests, violence – and assassination.

 

"Greece has entered a new phase of political violence by anarchist-oriented organizations that are more murderous, dangerous, capable and nihilistic than ever before....

 

"For the first time we are seeing a nexus of terrorist and criminal activity," he said. "These groups don't care about collateral damage, innocent bystanders being killed in the process. They are very extreme."

 

The threats came from a guerrilla group called the Sect of Revolutionaries, as it claimed credit for the murder of Sokratis Giolas, an investigative journalist. Giolas was shot dead outside his Athenian home on 19 July, in front of his pregant wife.

 

The gang promised to step up attacks on police, businessmen, prison guards and "corrupt" media – and, for the first time, threatened holidaymakers.

 

"Tourists should learn that Greece is no longer a safe haven of capitalism," its declaration said.

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/greece-war-zone-revolutionaries-tourists

[cruisemom42]

I am not sure I totally believe this, but it's something to consider.

 

1 August 2010: Greece will be a war zone, Sect of Revolutionaries warns tourists. Security forces fear wave of terror as austerity program provokes strikes, protests, violence – and assassination.

 

"Greece has entered a new phase of political violence by anarchist-oriented organizations that are more murderous, dangerous, capable and nihilistic than ever before....

 

"For the first time we are seeing a nexus of terrorist and criminal activity," he said. "These groups don't care about collateral damage, innocent bystanders being killed in the process. They are very extreme."

 

The threats came from a guerrilla group called the Sect of Revolutionaries, as it claimed credit for the murder of Sokratis Giolas, an investigative journalist. Giolas was shot dead outside his Athenian home on 19 July, in front of his pregant wife.

 

The gang promised to step up attacks on police, businessmen, prison guards and "corrupt" media – and, for the first time, threatened holidaymakers.

 

"Tourists should learn that Greece is no longer a safe haven of capitalism," its declaration said.

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/greece-war-zone-revolutionaries-tourists

 

 

This is certainly disturbing. One can only hope it is a bravado statement from a fringe group with little power to effect their claims. However, it is statements like this that will frighten tourists away, even without actions to back them up.

[TLCOhio]

This is certainly disturbing. One can only hope it is a bravado statement from a fringe group with little power to effect their claims. However, it is statements like this that will frighten tourists away, even without actions to back them up.

 

From the Daily Mail in London today, they have this headline: "Terrorists threaten to turn Greece into a 'war zone'" with these highlights: "An urban guerrilla group has threatened to turn Greece into a 'war zone' this summer. The group, known as the Sect of Revolutionaries, warned tourists that the country should no longer be regarded as a 'safe haven'. The terrorists issued a leaflet threatening to cause mayhem during the peak holiday season. The leaflet stated: 'We are at war with your democracy. Tourists should know that Greece is no longer a safe haven of capitalism. 'We intend to turn it into a war zone of revolutionary activity, with arson, sabotage, violent demonstrations, bomb attacks, and assassinations.' The guerrillas, however, said they would not carry out indiscriminate attacks and made no direct threat to tourists. The militant group handed over a CD to an Athens newspaper containing a statement and photographs of their arsenal, which included 17 handguns and automatic weapons, assorted gun-magazines and ammunition, a knife and brass knuckles."

 

Greece has had a history of some strongly, ultra left folks. There is clearly lots of political tension there as these economic changes play out and move forward. The Greek officials are trying to downplay these threats. The British Foreign Office has not changed its travel advice to tourists but urges British visitors to the country to remain vigilant.

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

Full story at:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-1299614/Greece-unsafe-tourists-warn-Sect-Revolutionaries-amid-threats.html

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[TLCOhio]

From the Wall Street Journal and New York Times today, they have major updates on the Greek economic situation. This NY Times headline says: "Greece Gets Good Progress Report From Lenders" with these highlights: "Greece’s international lenders cleared the way Thursday for it to receive the next installment of its bailout package, saying the government had made 'impressive' progress in revamping its economy, from restructuring pensions to overhauling the tax system. The program dictates cuts in civil service pay, reduced pensions and an increase in taxes, among other measures, many of which were approved by the Greek Parliament by the slimmest of margins over the last few months. In a country where tax evasion has been a national pastime, tax collection was slightly below target for the first half of the year, though it was still 7 percent higher than last year, I.M.F. officials said. The team also found that spending below the national level — local governments, hospitals, social security — was over budget. But spending cuts at the national level exceeded expectations, making up the difference."

 

The story gives more details on the recent truck strike, etc.

 

Full story at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/business/global/06drachma.html?_r=1

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[TLCOhio]

From the Wall Street Journal and New York Times today, they have major updates on the Greek economic situation. This NY Times headline says: "Greece Gets Good Progress Report From Lenders" with these highlights: "Greece’s international lenders cleared the way Thursday for it to receive the next installment of its bailout package, saying the government had made 'impressive' progress in revamping its economy, from restructuring pensions to overhauling the tax system. The program dictates cuts in civil service pay, reduced pensions and an increase in taxes, among other measures, many of which were approved by the Greek Parliament by the slimmest of margins over the last few months. In a country where tax evasion has been a national pastime, tax collection was slightly below target for the first half of the year, though it was still 7 percent higher than last year, I.M.F. officials said. The team also found that spending below the national level — local governments, hospitals, social security — was over budget. But spending cuts at the national level exceeded expectations, making up the difference."

 

The story gives more details on the recent truck strike, etc.

 

Full story at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/business/global/06drachma.html?_r=1

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[TLCOhio]

From the Wall Street Journal writers in Athens and Turkey, they have an interesting story with this headline: "Tourists Shun Greece, Try Turkey" with these highlights: "In the big-money world of mass tourism, Greece's woes are proving a boon for Turkey as vacationers vote with their flip-flops to avoid a country in financial crisis. Greek hotels and tour operators have been slashing prices and scaling back staff in a bid to recoup, after TV images of street riots coupled with a strong euro earlier this year persuaded vacationers to book elsewhere. That is bad news for Greece, which is already facing declining growth and budget deficits. Tourism makes up about 15% of the country's gross domestic product, and many economists say this summer's tourist season will be critical for a weakened economy that is forecast to shrink around 4% this year. So far, tourism revenues are down almost 9% this year compared with the period in 2009—itself a bad year—according to the latest Bank of Greece data. In May, Athens hoteliers saw some 30,000 cancellations after protests rocked the capital, leaving three bank workers dead. Meanwhile, just across the Aegean Sea in Greece's longstanding rival Turkey, 2010 is shaping up as a record year for tourism. Revenues in the second quarter for the industry as a whole were up 7.4%, compared with last year, while passenger arrivals in the first half were up by a quarter, according to Turkey's airport authority."

 

Given the past Greek-Turkish battles and tension, this "flip-flop" on tourism trends makes this a more interesting story.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704741904575409162866603270.html

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[rian90]

Fascinating article! Thank you. Good to see Turkey profit from this but I feel for the people of Greece.

[TLCOhio]

Fascinating article! Thank you. Good to see Turkey profit from this but I feel for the people of Greece.

 

YES, it's sad for the Greek people, but good news for Turkey.

 

From the Guardian in London in the last hour, they have this headline: "Greece's economy deeper in recession than forecast" with these highlights: "Greece's recession deepened more than expected in the second quarter of 2010 after the country was rocked by its financial crisis and a series of government measures to slash public debt. Investment dropped and public spending slumped in the three months to June as Greek politicians battled to regain the confidence of financial markets and meet the conditions of a multibillion-euro bailout from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. There was also a fresh warning sign that the economic crisis could further intensify social unrest, after a record jump in unemployment. The crisis has already led to widespread industrial action and public protests."

 

From the AP newswire within the past two hours, they have this headline: "Europe's sluggish recovery hinges on consumers" with these highlights: "As Europe makes a wobbly recovery based largely on selling goods overseas, the key question for its economy is: Are shoppers at home ready to start spending again? Growth in the 16 countries that share the euro was just 0.2 percent in the first quarter, and analysts say the recovery can only really take root if consumers in France, Germany and elsewhere forget their fears of unemployment and more turmoil — and open their pocketbooks."

 

Neither of these breaking news stories this am are good for Greece or Europe.

 

Full stories at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/12/greece-recession-gdp-unemployment

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jI6EmLmnq6TQtanHj17GEwoSmKlwD9HHVFKO0

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[cruisemom42]

Darn, now people are going to discover how lovely Turkey is and it will be overrun! ;)

[TLCOhio]

Darn, now people are going to discover how lovely Turkey is and it will be overrun! ;)

 

This is good for Turkey. It is a great country with such wonderful history, architecture, charm, people, etc. It deserves to get some attention and have folks discovering its many super areas and cities.

 

Sadly, heard yesterday from some "friends of friends" who just got back from the end of their cruise finishing in Athens. They were disappointed by conditions they saw in Athens. We saw some of this in 2006 when we were away from the Plaka and key historic areas. Athens is a big city with some "third-world looking" areas. These first-time recent visitors were surprised by these conditions they saw in Athens.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[TLCOhio]

From the Wall Street Journal on Friday, Aug. 20, they have this headline: "Jobs Crisis Grows As Greece Falters" with these highlights: "Greece's deepening recession is driving joblessness steadily higher, feeding discontent with the government's austerity program and dragging on the broader economy. Greece's gross domestic product contracted by 3.5% in the second quarter from a year earlier, hitting retailers hard and sending unemployment rates to above 12% of the work force, according to data released last week. Forecasts vary on how bad unemployment could get. The International Monetary Fund predicts the jobless rate will reach 14.8% by 2012. But some labor experts fear that before long, one in five Greek workers could be without jobs. Against a backdrop of rising joblessness, Prime Minister George Papandreou has been meeting with top government officials to discuss how to ramp up tax collections. Tax intakes are €700 million below the seven-month targets, people within the government said."

 

This story was written by the WSJ writer who is experienced and based in Athens.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704476104575439330354012798.html

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[denniti]

We just got back from our Mediterranean cruise with Royal Caribbean BOS and toured Athens on the 15th of August. We did not experience any strikers at all. We watched the changing of the guard at the Greek houses of parliament, did the acropolis, sygmata square, etc. It was a National holiday, but our taxi driver, who lives in Piraeus, said that it has been quiet since the unrest and didn't expect it to start up again until later in the year. He also said that any demonstrations that he saw were uneventful. The wide spread corruption by the Greek government is sickening - those poor people . . . hope they get it resolved, peacefully.

 

If anyone needs a recommendation for a reasonably priced taxi driver/knowledgable tour guide, please let me know.

 

Tina

[chipmaster]

It looks ugly, that is what happens when Goverments talk and don't bite the bullet and balance the budget. Obama are you paying attention!

[quote name='TLCOhio'][COLOR=Blue][SIZE=3][FONT=Georgia]From the Wall Street Journal on Friday, Aug. 20, they have this headline: [B][I]"Jobs Crisis Grows As Greece Falters"[/I][/B] with these highlights: [I]"Greece's deepening recession is driving joblessness steadily higher, feeding discontent with the government's austerity program and dragging on the broader economy. Greece's gross domestic product contracted by 3.5% in the second quarter from a year earlier, hitting retailers hard and sending unemployment rates to above 12% of the work force, according to data released last week. Forecasts vary on how bad unemployment could get. The International Monetary Fund predicts the jobless rate will reach 14.8% by 2012. But some labor experts fear that before long, one in five Greek workers could be without jobs. Against a backdrop of rising joblessness, Prime Minister George Papandreou has been meeting with top government officials to discuss how to ramp up tax collections. Tax intakes are €700 million below the seven-month targets, people within the government said."[/I]

This story was written by the WSJ writer who is experienced and based in Athens.
[URL]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704476104575439330354012798.html[/URL]

THANKS! Terry in Ohio[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:
[URL]http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923[/URL][/quote]

[rian90]

Again, can't we keep US politics out of this? I could tell you why..but I prefer to leave that for a political forum.

[islandmandan]

[SIZE=3]Hey Chipmaster, I could also tell you why, so could Australia, but let's leave it alone[/SIZE]

[Great8]

[quote name='denniti']We just got back from our Mediterranean cruise with Royal Caribbean BOS and toured Athens on the 15th of August. We did not experience any strikers at all. We watched the changing of the guard at the Greek houses of parliament, did the acropolis, sygmata square, etc. It was a National holiday, but our taxi driver, who lives in Piraeus, said that it has been quiet since the unrest and didn't expect it to start up again until later in the year. He also said that any demonstrations that he saw were uneventful. The wide spread corruption by the Greek government is sickening - those poor people . . . hope they get it resolved, peacefully.

If anyone needs a recommendation for a reasonably priced taxi driver/knowledgable tour guide, please let me know.

Tina[/quote]

Our group of 8 will be on the Star Princess on Sept 23. We haven't made tour plans for Athens yet because of the possibility of strikes. We would appreciate the name of your tour guide, how far in advance you booked and the price if possible. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give us.

[linda_22003]

We're going to Athens on Sept. 12 and we're staying right in Syntagma Square. I'm not worried. :)