Formal Night - Fashion Police Question

[KirkNC]

Every time I read these threads it reminds me of the 14 yr old that sat at our table on the Veendam a few years ago. Every night he wore a t-shirt, shorts and Crocs, formal, smart casual, it made no difference. We never brought it up for the sake of peace at the table. :rolleyes: After that we started to enjoy anytime dining as an option. At least than it is only for one night.

 

Kirk

[Jemima]

The post "pushed my buttons" because I had just gone toe to toe with the person you were replying to. She was advising people that athletic shoes and jeans were acceptable in the MDR. I felt it was irresponsible to give out that kind of advice to a new cruiser. Then, I found out on this thread, that poster doesn't even eat in the MDR, and on the rare times she does, it's NOT in jeans!!

 

I am that poster and most of our dinners have been eaten in the MDR dressed within the dress code. We have been on 13 HAL cruises with 160 some days. Recently we've tended to eat dinner in the lido. We've eaten dinner in the lido about 16 times, twice in Canelettos, once in the Tamarind and all other nights in the MDR. That makes my "rare times" in the MDR around 140.

The dress code does not mention shoes. The listed no-no's do not list jeans. Jeans are permitted in the MDR on casual nights although they aren't specifically mentioned. You won't see many in jeans, but they are allowed. I and J jr., who is a young adult, don't wear jeans in the MDR because most people don't.

[BaltiGator]

It is usually understood, however, that the language is articulated in this way so as to be "polite" and positive rather than harsh and negative. It is similar to when a superior officer in the military -- or one's boss in civilian work -- uses "please" when issuing an order. "Commander Neal, please report to the Captain's port side cabin." This is not a request just because "please" is found in the syntax. Similarly, when Copper says "Please step out of the car, sir." He is not requesting that you do so, he is issuing you an order that you are expected to obey. It's phrased in the social-polite mode, but it is nevertheless an order. In general, this is the nature of the syntax in the HAL dress code. The line gives suggestions and by way of examples articulates the kind of clothing they expect us to wear on Formal Nights. They expect us to be mature enough to know how to behave without having to be policed or compelled with forceful language. Once upon a time they were correct.

 

I disagree with this part of your post on so many levels I'm not sure where to begin. Okay, I'll try.

 

The notion that "Please step out of the car" and "Please wear clothing appropriate for formal night" make a useful comparison for purposes of this discussion is a stretch of logic to the breaking point. HAL uses polite syntax because they are not, in fact, issuing an order or even stating a requirement. They use polite syntax because the dress code is a suggestion, not a requirement, and while they do indeed prefer everyone adhere to it, they generally have little or no intention of making anyone do so. The police officer, on the other hand, has every intention of making you step out of the car. If you don't respond to the first politely formatted request, you will quickly be the recipient of clearer and blunter versions.

 

Okay, there's more.

 

The notion that "once upon a time" people were "mature" enough to "know how to behave" - by which I guess you mean dress to the standard of the dress code - is a nostalgic fallacy. People nowadays aren't any less mature than they used to be, nor less polite, more selfish, etc. as so many people seem to believe. Hasn't anyone on these threads ever seen the quote attributed to Socrates about how the younger generation no longer respects their elders, has bad manners, etc? The children he was referring to have been dead for a couple thousand years. Human behavior has always occupied a spectrum from the most noble and selfless acts to the rudest and most selfish. There have always been people who flaunt the rules.

 

What is true about "once upon a time" is that more of the people who cruised in that era LIKED dressing up. They also came from generations where dressing up for social occasions was more routine, more accepted and frequently more expected. Nowadays many people who cruise have no such desire to dress up, and for them doing so in social situations is less routine, less expected and even less accepted. This has nothing to do with maturity. I have seen people on cruise ships dressed precisely to the dress code who behaved like animals or small children, and people who were not dressed to code otherwise behave with great restraint and dignity. Mark Twain was a brilliant writer, but like everyone else he was dead wrong sometimes. Clothes DO NOT make the man.

 

There used to be many, and there remain a few, restaurants where a "jacket is required" and they mean it. If a man shows up without one, sometimes they will offer him one from their own stock. But if they don't have one for him, or he refuses to put it on, they won't seat him. The word REQUIRED is very clear. Yet just like HAL, they are running a business, so when they turn someone away for no jacket, they are turning away business. HAL very well could, if it wished to, make it very clear on their website, in their cruise contracts, and on the ships that the dress code is REQUIRED and that those who do not adhere to it may be denied entry to certain parts of the ship that night. HAL chooses not to do this. They choose to call their dress code SUGGESTED. This is the same as going to a restaurant that has a sign which reads "jacket suggested." Big difference.

 

I'll conclude by reminding anyone who cares that I personally feel people should adhere to the dress code - at least in the MDR/specialty dining rooms - because there remain people who very much enjoy that aspect of cruising and it would be nice if others could respect that enjoyment. But I totally understand the point of view of those who don't feel obligated to dress up, I would never criticize anyone for what they are wearing (talk about rude and immature behavior), and I do not think the Line should EVER "enforce" a dress code that they themselves have deemed to be SUGGESTED.

[world~citizen]

... I do not think the Line should EVER "enforce" a dress code that they themselves have deemed to be SUGGESTED.

 

It's a bit more than that isn't it?

 

HAL declares a formal and smart casual dining category. It defines smart casual. It describes what guests usually wear on formal evenings, and specifically requests that passengers observe the suggested dress code:

 

"In order to complement your fellow guests, Holland America Line asks that you observe the suggested dress code throughout the entire evening."

 

Certainly there is latitude in the formal code, but isn't the direction and intent clear?

 

Smooth sailing...

[BaltiGator]

It's a bit more than that isn't it?

 

I'm sorry if there remains any ambiguity about the point I made in my prior post. I specifically acknowledged that the Line does state their preference, and I also said that IMO it would be nice if everyone adhered to it. However, when it comes to so-called ENFORCEMENT, as in, a staff member actually turning someone away from the MDR, well, that's also a bit more than that, isn't it? ;)

[world~citizen]

I'm sorry if there remains any ambiguity about the point I made in my prior post. I specifically acknowledged that the Line does state their preference, and I also said that IMO it would be nice if everyone adhered to it. However, when it comes to so-called ENFORCEMENT, as in, a staff member actually turning someone away from the MDR, well, that's also a bit more than that, isn't it? ;)

 

As has been stated, enforcement is uneven.

 

That is not to say that it doesn't happen. You say that HAL should not enforce the code as it is only "suggested". The fact that it has on occasion indicates HAL doesn't see it that way.

 

I guess it all boils down to how we view the "power" of suggestion.:eek:

 

Smooth sailing...

[BaltiGator]

Certainly there is latitude in the formal code, but isn't the direction and intent clear?

 

And by the way, no I don't think the direction and intent is all that clear. I think it's rather ambiguous. We ASK that you OBSERVE the SUGGESTED dress code. Hmm. Those three words - ASK, OBSERVE, SUGGESTED - imply different levels of adherence.

 

If the dress code was clear, I doubt we would have newbie threads every 3-4 days on this forum expressing anxiety over what to wear on formal nights and where and when to wear it.

 

I also believe the ambiguity is on purpose. Because, again, "enforcement" is not generally a consideration. If people who dress up want to be angry, fine, though I think it's a waste of a perfectly good emotion on an utterly trivial matter. In any case they shouldn't be solely angry at the people who don't dress up. They should also be angry at the Line for choosing such ambiguous language in an era when many people are looking for any reason NOT to dress up.

[peaches from georgia]

HAL is trying to be all things to all people. Therefore they lose their identity as to what kind of cruiseline they are or want to be. They keep "formal" nights, but so dilute the dress code they no longer are really the "elegant" traditional line that they were at one time and like to pretend they still are. They call one dress code "smart casual", but let people wear jeans in the MDR which is not a country club smart casual such as Oceania and other lines have and enforce. Hence we have the never-ending dress code threads because HAL won't define itself anymore.

[BaltiGator]

HAL is trying to be all things to all people. Therefore they lose their identity as to what kind of cruiseline they are or want to be. They keep "formal" nights, but so dilute the dress code they no longer are really the "elegant" traditional line that they were at one time and like to pretend they still are. They call one dress code "smart casual", but let people wear jeans in the MDR which is not a country club smart casual such as Oceania and other lines have and enforce. Hence we have the never-ending dress code threads because HAL won't define itself anymore.

 

Exactly. The Line is as much to blame as any so-called under-dressed passenger for the ambiguities, anxieties, uneven "enforcement" and other dress code issues we debate in these threads ad nauseum.

 

Hey HAL how about adding this:

 

Appropriate formal night attire, as described above, is required for entry to the MDR and Pinnacle Grill on formal nights. Those passengers who do not adhere to the dress code are welcome to dine in the Lido buffet or their own cabin via room service.

 

Just a rough draft, but the point is, it would make that one small part of formal night very clear - if you ain't dressed up stay out of the dining rooms! HAL will never add this language to their policy. We all know why ($$) but the reason why doesn't matter. What matters is that without this kind of language, the ambiguity exists and will continue to manifest itself.

[world~citizen]

And by the way, no I don't think the direction and intent is all that clear. I think it's rather ambiguous. We ASK that you OBSERVE the SUGGESTED dress code. Hmm. Those three words - ASK, OBSERVE, SUGGESTED - imply different levels of adherence.

 

What do you consider ambiguous, the dress code as described on HAL's website or their determination to enforce it? HAL has reserved the right to enforce it - we have seen that. The nature of the clothing described on the website seems self explanatory.

 

We will agree to disagree.

 

Smooth sailing...

[Copper10-8]

I disagree with this part of your post on so many levels I'm not sure where to begin. Okay, I'll try.

 

The notion that "Please step out of the car" and "Please wear clothing appropriate for formal night" make a useful comparison for purposes of this discussion is a stretch of logic to the breaking point. HAL uses polite syntax because they are not, in fact, issuing an order or even stating a requirement. They use polite syntax because the dress code is a suggestion, not a requirement, and while they do indeed prefer everyone adhere to it, they generally have little or no intention of making anyone do so. The police officer, on the other hand, has every intention of making you step out of the car. If you don't respond to the first politely formatted request, you will quickly be the recipient of clearer and blunter versions.

 

.......................

 

Thank you!:)

[peaches from georgia]

Other cruiselines seem able to find their niche, enforce their policies and stay afloat and prosper. A formal night is a formal night and other dining venues are provided for those that do not wish to dress up. An adult pool is an adult pool and children are politely told to swim in the family pool. We are cruising soon on another line and these dress code threads don't exist on their board on CC.

[BaltiGator]

Thank you!:)

 

I thought you might appreciate that! ;)

[BaltiGator]

What do you consider ambiguous, the dress code as described on HAL's website or their determination to enforce it?

 

Both, and more.

 

The description of the dress code is ambiguous because it is a description by example rather than by definition. It does not explicitly exclude some of the questionable possibilities that people endlessly start threads to ask if it's okay to wear. Moreover, with regard to attire the word "formal" has a different/stricter meaning to many people. So yes, the description of the dress code is ambiguous.

 

The enforcement or lack thereof also creates ambiguity. I've already pounded to death my point that enforcement of a suggestion is nonsensical to begin with. But on top of that, when HAL does enforce it, they do so only in certain venues and only in scatter shot fashion. So yes, ambiguous.

 

Finally, HAL specifically defines a place for people to eat who are not observing the dress code. Why? If they really want everyone to obey the dress code, why specifically set aside a place like that? Why not just tacitly ignore the code in the Lido, like they tacitly ignore it in, say, the casino? So, more ambiguity.

 

Hope that's clear. ;)

[RichNY]

RichNY - I see you focussed only on my offhand mention of NCL, and not the meat of my post:

 

Those who prefer to see dress codes abolished are just as often "fashion police", and just as horribly rude as those who'd like to see them remain.

 

There is no excuse for accosting a 80+ year old woman, clearly dependent on her family, and trying to ruin their evening with malicious words. IMO, no action by the so called "fashion police" exceeds the gall of this particular "slob snob".

 

Does anyone here maintain otherwise?

 

I'm well aware NCL has many cruisers who dress formally, nothing "down market" about the line, dress codes that request no shorts in most dining rooms in the evening, etc. I cited it merely because it's a line without an official formal night, just "Dress Up or Not".

 

Perhaps I should have referred to Oceania, or Carnival, or...well any line that doesn't have formal nights (yes, Carnival has Cruise Elegant -- just not formal.)

 

Much of the cruising public is oblivious to the policies of different lines. But, CCer's generally know who has formal nights, who doesn't, and what the dress code minimum would be. When savvy cruisers book HAL for itinerary, price, timing or whatever, they know what they're getting into.

 

So don't whine about the parts you don't like!

 

Dress code not what you want? Suck it up. I wish HAL had the same (non) smoking policy as Celebrity, but you will never, EVER hear me whining about it.

 

First time cruisers, those new to CC, anyone taken by surprise by a dress code: don't sweat it. Code is flexible for just that reason. Cruisin Susan - that black dress will be absolutely, positively gorgeous on her. And you will both have a great time!

 

 

Suck what up ???? I never once said I was against any dress code or do I try to avoid them...I'm just trying to inform the uninformed about NCL..

[RevNeal]

I understand that this is HAL's decision. When we go to Alaska (with your friend Ruth) in August, we will probably see people in the MDR in jeans. Maybe even me????? (That will be one for the books, but it's possible.)

 

The post "pushed my buttons" because I had just gone toe to toe with the person you were replying to. She was advising people that athletic shoes and jeans were acceptable in the MDR. I felt it was irresponsible to give out that kind of advice to a new cruiser. Then, I found out on this thread, that poster doesn't even eat in the MDR, and on the rare times she does, it's NOT in jeans!!

 

People can dress however they want, within the HAL guidelines. I feel it is a huge mistake to advise people they CAN wear jeans, just because it's acceptable to HAL. We also need to tell them that if they do wear jeans, they will probably stick out like a sore thumb (hopefully!!).

 

In my lifetime, people have gone from dressing to travel on a jet and dressing to attend church services. Recently, I have seen people in a nice restaurant in bermuda length jeans!! It annoys me to no end that now I have to see this while on my cruise vacation!! I was brought up by a woman (who is approaching 87.)who has NEVER worn jeans. Her casual outfit is a khaki or denim skirt, with a smart shirt. She has been asked if she still works, because she looks wonderful at all times. That is why I don't "get" this acceptance of jeans in the MDR!! And, I don't think it's "old fashioned". Those of us who feel this way need to stick together to encourage respectable dress on HAL!!

 

The code is the code is the code. 4 years ago the dress code specifically prohibited jeans on Casual nights; then, with the last change which brought in the term "smart casual," a subtle alteration of the prohibited list occurred ... Jeans were removed from it. By this proactive step -- removing jeans from the "not allowed" list -- HAL was effectively stating that jeans are allowed to be worn on Smart Casual nights.

 

Your point is that, in your opinion, jeans should not be worn even though the Line, by silence, indicates that jeans are ok. While you absolutely should make such decisions for yourself, and while I certainly agree with you that jeans are not dressy-enough FOR ME for wear on Smart Casual Night, that isn't a decision you or I get to make for others. Since the dress code permits their wear, we would be misrepresenting the code by suggesting that the code says otherwise.

 

And, of course, people DO wear them. Indeed, I've seen jeans worn as part of a dressy outfit that WORKED for that person. He was wearing a very nice pair of jeans, a dressy shirt, and a very smart jacket ... Very much in keeping with the smart casual night's atmosphere, even though he was wearing jeans.

[RevNeal]

HAL is trying to be all things to all people. Therefore they lose their identity as to what kind of cruiseline they are or want to be. They keep "formal" nights, but so dilute the dress code they no longer are really the "elegant" traditional line that they were at one time and like to pretend they still are. They call one dress code "smart casual", but let people wear jeans in the MDR which is not a country club smart casual such as Oceania and other lines have and enforce. Hence we have the never-ending dress code threads because HAL won't define itself anymore.

 

Succinctly stated, without ambiguity or untoward emotion or sarcasm.

Thank you.

[TracieABD]

Please have no concern for your daughter. I'm on the large size, so is my mother, and so are my friends, and they all look great in simple black dresses. As one friend says, you can't go wrong with a black dress and a little bling. :)

 

Cruisin Suzin-

A simple black dress with some sparkley jewelery will be just fine. I have some "paste" that looks great, did not cost much and will dress up any outfit.

I found it in a bridal store on sale. It looks lovely with a black background, really highlights the sparkle. Or she could try a pashmina or a scarf.

 

Your DD will be fine. Remember CC represents a very small percentage of cruisers. Most folks are so busy worrying about how they look, they would never think to judge another.

 

I want for you and your DD to relax and enjoy your cruise!

TL:)

[world~citizen]

Both, and more.

 

The description of the dress code is ambiguous because it is a description by example rather than by definition.

 

Well, definitions are by nature descriptive - they can't always be stipulative. There are strict and loose definitions. HAL opted for a loose one. All the better.

 

It does not explicitly exclude some of the questionable possibilities that people endlessly start threads to ask if it's okay to wear.

 

And in context many of those questionable possibilities are plain thoughtless. Athletic shoes and clean T shirts are examples. No definition will preclude ambiguity 100 per cent. Thats why there are travel agents and HAL has shore staff to field these and other questions.

 

The enforcement or lack thereof also creates ambiguity.

 

Why? Enforcement is done on a case by case basis to minimize embarrassment to guests.

 

Finally, HAL specifically defines a place for people to eat who are not observing the dress code. Why? If they really want everyone to obey the dress code, why specifically set aside a place like that?

 

It is clear by these threads that not everyone wants to participate in the festive dinners. The Lido is set aside for those who don't - to preserve the atmosphere in the MDR for those who do.

 

I know this will be unsatisfactory but I gave it a shot.:)

 

I am satisfied to agree to disagree.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[iancal]

|I cannot imagine this post influencing anyone in terms of how they plan to dress on their cruise. The only exception may be a first time cruiser, or perhaps a first time HAL cruises. This person may be put off so much and feel that the board is representative of HAL cruisers that he/she makes a decision not to cruise or to cruise on a friendlier line.

 

That would be a shame because this is certainly not indicative of our HAL cruise.

[world~citizen]

... A formal night is a formal night and other dining venues are provided for those that do not wish to dress up. An adult pool is an adult pool and children are politely told to swim in the family pool.

 

That is pretty much it. :)

 

Smooth sailing...

[world~citizen]

Succinctly stated, without ambiguity or untoward emotion or sarcasm.

Thank you.

 

Agreed.

 

And I might add PDF documents.

[CDRMark]

Snip....

 

If the dress code was clear, I doubt we would have newbie threads every 3-4 days on this forum expressing anxiety over what to wear on formal nights and where and when to wear it.

 

SNIP.. If people who dress up want to be angry, fine, though I think it's a waste of a perfectly good emotion on an utterly trivial matter. ....Snip

 

I disagree with the statement in red. I believe that the majority of questions come from people who understand exactly what is being "suggested" and are unhappy with that suggestion. The reasons for their unhappiness are many and varied. A poll might be interesting if properly structured.

And I, personally, am never angered by poor manners, merely saddened.:)

Cheers

Mark

[DizzyDallasDi]

A couple of years ago, prior to my first HAL cruise, I made the mistake of posting a question on the HAL board about dressing in smart casual clothing on formal night (not in the MDR). As so many others, I was asking a legitimate question that I thought would get a simple response. I received the usual onslaught of quoting da code, chastising of those who would consider such a thing, was told that cruises were "ruined" because less than formally clad pax were encountered in the common area (yes, the word "ruined" was used), etc., etc., etc.

 

That was my first post on the HAL board (not CC) and I was appalled by the attitude and nastiness of several of the responders. It got pretty ugly, as well as comical...IMO. I have to say that since that time, many of those responders have really toned down and are not as quick to villify those who would consider dressing in less than formal attire on formal night. Sure, there are still the hard core folks who come across as "meanies" but they are becoming the minority.

 

I'm not easily intimidated so the "meanies" didn't scare me. However, all who ask these simple dress code questions aren't made of the same "tuff stuff" as me and I can only imagine their horror when reading some of the responses. My reaction was that many on here needed to take several deep breaths of fresh ocean air accompanied by a few adult beverages. Others will react differently and become worried about not fitting in and having made a mistake in choosing to cruise on HAL.

 

I know it won't make any difference, but please be aware that you could be hurting someone's feelings with your response.

 

Thank you for letting me rant....

[RevNeal]

You mean this thread?

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=849626&highlight=casual

 

Took me a bit to find it, and then it was an interesting read. Things don't ever seem to change. I noticed that I managed to avoid posting on it for 11 pages, and then when I did I managed to avoid the topic ... my name had been taken in vain and I was curious to see what was going on.