Bomb on plane in UK raises concern in US

[Sargent_Schultz]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/29/security.concern/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

[scottbee]

Let's tone down the subject line here

"Suspicious Package in which initial tests proved negative for explosives"

is more appropriate

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11654390

[CruiserBruce]

Agreed, plus it is a freight, not passenger plane.

[greatam]

Whether there are really bombs/explosive devices or radiologicals in the planes/UPS trucks, it is causing complete havoc in NYC. The Brooklyn/Manhattan bridges are shut down, NYPD has men stationed on the BQE (Brooklyn Queens Expressway) checking random trucks. There are delays at Newark and LGA. Thankfully, no reported other than normal delays at JFK.

 

I am in Chile where it has been peaceful and quiet until my phones and emails exploded in the last two hours. My drivers are having a heck of a time getting from point A to point B in the City. We have some time critical freight to the Javitz Center that may not make it there on time for the trade show. Can't get into the City other than on the Williamsburg and it is backed up for about 4 miles.

 

Thank goodness, SOMEONE somewhere was alert and on the ball. Probably a penetration test to find out what works and what doesn't. I think a big thank you to our British cousins is in order.

[twoputt.plusone]

Thank goodness, SOMEONE somewhere was alert and on the ball. Probably a penetration test to find out what works and what doesn't. I think a big thank you to our British cousins is in order.

 

Absolutely!

[Sargent_Schultz]

Where there is smoke there is fire. Whatever is going on is clearly NOT an isolated incident. I think a test run of some sort is a very plausible scenario.

 

Lots and lots of cargo is carried by passenger planes. Who knows what might have been on passenger planes during this test that went undetected?

[njhorseman]

Where there is smoke there is fire. Whatever is going on is clearly NOT an isolated incident. I think a test run of some sort is a very plausible scenario.

 

Lots and lots of cargo is carried by passenger planes. Who knows what might have been on passenger planes during this test that went undetected?

 

And having just watched Obama's brief public statement there actually was "fire"...explosives were detected in the packages, contrary to earlier reports.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Where there is smoke there is fire. Whatever is going on is clearly NOT an isolated incident. I think a test run of some sort is a very plausible scenario.

 

Lots and lots of cargo is carried by passenger planes. Who knows what might have been on passenger planes during this test that went undetected?

 

Contrary to preliminary incorrect reports, explosives WERE found.

 

And as I suspected...

 

Bomb may have flown on passenger planes

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/31/security.concern/index.html?hpt=T1

 

 

I don't care how much foreign airlines and countries whine about US security requirements. It is far cheaper and better to detect threats BEFORE they enter the US. If that upsets some, too bad.

[scottbee]

Contrary to preliminary incorrect reports, explosives WERE found.

 

And as I suspected...

 

Bomb may have flown on passenger planes

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/31/security.concern/index.html?hpt=T1

 

 

I don't care how much foreign airlines and countries whine about US security requirements. It is far cheaper and better to detect threats BEFORE they enter the US. If that upsets some, too bad.

 

 

As usual, you miss the point. We're talking about the difference between US domestic security requirements and US international security requirements. Tougher security on international flights wouldn't help in the situation where a terrorist boarded a domestic flight - as in all four 9/11 incidents.

[Sargent_Schultz]

As usual, you miss the point. We're talking about the difference between US domestic security requirements and US international security requirements. Tougher security on international flights wouldn't help in the situation where a terrorist boarded a domestic flight - as in all four 9/11 incidents.

 

As usual, it isn't me who is missing the point.

 

First, the material has to make it INTO the US for it to become a domestic issue. Preventing it from coming into the country in the first place is the BEST defense. I don't care how much foreign airlines and countries whine about US security requirements. It is far cheaper and better to detect threats BEFORE they enter the US. If that upsets some, too bad.

 

There was explosive material found, despite posts to the contrary. It seems likely a passenger plane was also involved, also despite posts to the contrary.

[frugaltravel]

As usual, it isn't me who is missing the point.

 

First, the material has to make it INTO the US for it to become a domestic issue. Preventing it from coming into the country in the first place is the BEST defense. I don't care how much foreign airlines and countries whine about US security requirements. It is far cheaper and better to detect threats BEFORE they enter the US. If that upsets some, too bad.

 

There was explosive material found, despite posts to the contrary. It seems likely a passenger plane was also involved, also despite posts to the contrary.

 

And interestingly enough, after the tightened security within the US, there has been no domestic terrorist attack or attempt that the US knows of. Might be luck, or might be the security system isn't working half bad after all.

[Sargent_Schultz]

US expands cargo security ban in wake of bomb plot

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWAT01473320101108

 

also impacts passenger flights.

 

It appears that a true disaster was narrowly averted.

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/08/3168185/saudi-help-averted-bombing-disaster.html

[scottbee]

It's reassuring to see that the USA are putting these restrictions on all flights (domestic and international) given that all indications were that it was a US Citizen planning the attacks. (Anwar al-Awlaki; b. April 22, 1971; Las Cruces, New Mexico)

[frugaltravel]

It's reassuring to see that the USA are putting these restrictions on all flights (domestic and international) given that all indications were that it was a US Citizen planning the attacks. (Anwar al-Awlaki; b. April 22, 1971; Las Cruces, New Mexico)

 

Let's not pick and choose the facts we choose to share. Dual citizen (also Yemen, parents are Yemeni), hasn't lived in the US in years. Now he is believed to be hiding in Yemen's mountains.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/29/yemen-bomb-scare-mastermind-london

[scottbee]

Let's not pick and choose the facts we choose to share. Dual citizen (also Yemen, parents are Yemeni), hasn't lived in the US in years. Now he is believed to be hiding in Yemen's mountains.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/29/yemen-bomb-scare-mastermind-london

 

Hasn't lived in the United States for 8 years (2002).

 

Not hiding facts at all; Anwar al-Awlaki: Wikipedia Article. While he has dual citizenship; the United States clearly state that by having an additional citizenship, it does not mean you have renounced your United States citizenship; he is in the eyes of US law, is American.

 

Given he appears to the person involved with both International (recent toner cartridge, underwear bomber) and Domestic (Fort Hood shootings); I'm happy to see the USA not take the "it's not us, just them" attitude again. The past few security alerts, only affected flights entering the United States; not domestic flights within the United States.

[scottbee]

Preventing it from coming into the country in the first place is the BEST defense. I don't care how much foreign airlines and countries whine about US security requirements. It is far cheaper and better to detect threats BEFORE they enter the US. If that upsets some, too bad.

 

The problem is pretending it's only outside the USA is putting your head in the sand. How many of the following flights on 2001/09/11 were international?

AA11

UAL175

AA77

UA93

 

 

And these most recent attempts were committed by an American! OK, he did it from outside the country, but they could well have been shipped domestically

[greatam]

Let's not pick and choose the facts we choose to share. Dual citizen (also Yemen, parents are Yemeni), hasn't lived in the US in years. Now he is believed to be hiding in Yemen's mountains.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/29/yemen-bomb-scare-mastermind-london

 

Who is picking and choosing facts???? He IS a US citizen with a "shoot to kill" order on his head (either the first or one of only two). Who cares if he has dual citizenship?? He is an AMERICAN citizen and therefore different rules apply in prosecution, arrest, etc. etc. Hence, the shoot to kill order. He CANNOT be declared an "enemy combatant". This is one of the worst of the terrorists, IMHO (and the military and various security agencies I deal with). His father is SUING the US government with the help of the ACLU to rescind the "shoot to kill" order. After all the US gave his father, he now sues our government???

 

And who is to say he has NOT been back in the USA in recent years? He has already been indicted for passport fraud in 2002 (lied about where he was born-said he was a dual citizen born in YEMEN when he was not). But the Statute of Limitations ran out, so no prosecution.

 

The REAL danger with this man besides his brain and his tactical/strategic planning is he THINKS American, he ACTS American, he SPEAKS American, he has a VERY good American education and his main goal is to incite disaffected AMERICANS to Jihad against OTHER AMERICANS.

 

And yes, he is a master bombmaker and is more than willing to take down any part of the USA he can, including cargo or passenger planes.

 

I have seen NO increased cargo security, no matter what the media and our government says. We had two shipments of flower bulbs land today (or maybe last night) at JFK. They were from Israel AND Syria. The Israeli shipment-I knew this would not be held up in Customs or USDA. The Syrian one-I sure thought it would be a couple of days or at least overnight. The containers went to Customs about 10AM this morning. They were released before 2PM. NOT much they could check in 4 hours (other than for radiologicals). Now WE are left with stripping out these containers and HOPING there is nothing bad in them.

 

Increased cargo security???? Keep on reading all the idiotic stuff in our media.

[biker1972]

The amount of freight and mail that is carried on passenger jets is mind boggling. Most of this freight is from vetted shippers (really ;)) and the airline pilots sure would like to see it screened. So our luggage is screened but not much of the freight :eek:.

[Sargent_Schultz]

The amount of freight and mail that is carried on passenger jets is mind boggling. Most of this freight is from vetted shippers (really ;)) and the airline pilots sure would like to see it screened. So our luggage is screened but not much of the freight :eek:.

 

This is so true and one of the reasons FedEx, UPS, etc get interline rates - they are among the best customers for US passenger jets.

 

Ya think that might be one of the reasons for the outrageous luggage fees some airlines charge? Why give it away when they can sell it for un-inspected freight. :p

[Sargent_Schultz]

The problem is pretending it's only outside the USA is putting your head in the sand. How many of the following flights on 2001/09/11 were international?

AA11

UAL175

AA77

UA93

 

 

And these most recent attempts were committed by an American! OK, he did it from outside the country, but they could well have been shipped domestically

 

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up a 9 year old incident as if it were current? Are you suggesting it could happen again?

 

As for continuing concerns over cargo from foreign countries, see this post:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=26799306&postcount=17

[Sargent_Schultz]

Shippers fought full screening of cargo planes

 

US knew for years that cargo planes were vulnerable but shippers fought full screening

 

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Shippers-fought-full-apf-428352101.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

 

"The U.S. requires all packages be screened before being loaded onto passenger flights originating in the U.S. But there's no such requirement enforced for all cargo loaded onto U.S.-bound international passenger flights or on cargo-only flights, such as UPS and FedEx planes."

[greatam]

Shippers fought full screening of cargo planes

 

US knew for years that cargo planes were vulnerable but shippers fought full screening

 

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Shippers-fought-full-apf-428352101.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

 

"The U.S. requires all packages be screened before being loaded onto passenger flights originating in the U.S. But there's no such requirement enforced for all cargo loaded onto U.S.-bound international passenger flights or on cargo-only flights, such as UPS and FedEx planes."

 

Yes, a continuing problem, one we as a company face every day.

 

The industry as a whole DOES NOT want a certain type of government mandated screening. Why-because EVERYTHING the government gets involved in costs too much, takes too much time and is littered with STUPID rules which cannot be complied with in a lot of cases.

 

But we as an industry do our best to determine what is safe and what is not. I have asked for specific "extra documentation" from shippers I did not know. I sometimes turn these shippers over to Stratfor (paid security analysis company) for further info if I have a REALLY bad feeling. And that container of flower bulbs from Syria-it is parked in the FURTHEST corner of our yard in NYC. When it is time to unload it later this afternoon, I have hired a haz mat team to do the actual unloading. And we have notified NYPD bomb squad of a potential danger (which has caused problems with our company and ICE-the phone calls have been flying). I don't think we will have any problems, but myself, like most shipping companies, take a LOT of precautions to protect ourselves and our businesses. Just NOT government mandated.

 

There is NOTHING the US government can do with international shipping. Different rules for different countries. IF you put in very stringent rules that cannot be complied with due to cultural and logistical differences (thinking specifically of the Middle East), world commerce could stop. You really MUST leave it up to the shipping companies involved without US government interference. Will some contraband get through??? Yes. But we are always alert to the possibility and are always trying to outhink the bad guys.

[twoputt.plusone]

It's reassuring to see that the USA are putting these restrictions on all flights (domestic and international) given that all indications were that it was a US Citizen planning the attacks. (Anwar al-Awlaki; b. April 22, 1971; Las Cruces, New Mexico)

 

When you're talking about terrorists, I really think you have to forget about their citizenship or place of birth. Any citizen from any country can and has been radicalized. It can happen anywhere. :(

[Sargent_Schultz]

There is NOTHING the US government can do with international shipping.

 

I think they could probably do something for shipments headed for the United States, but what was interesting in the article is that there are restrictions in effect for domestic cargo.

 

It isn't like they are trying to do something internationally that they don't already do domestically.

[greatam]

I think they could probably do something for shipments headed for the United States, but what was interesting in the article is that there are restrictions in effect for domestic cargo.

 

The article???? You REALLY trust an AP writer who got carefully crafted quotes from company spokespeople to give you the straight scoop about what REALLY goes on behind the scene??? Think again. And what "restrictions" are you referring to??? That freight is scanned before it is loaded on a plane??? It is scanned when it goes through Customs at major entry points into the USA also. That was my complaint yesterday. The Syrian flower bulbs were scanned ONLY!!! What else could possibly be in the container??? We shall find out in about 2 hours.

 

It isn't like they are trying to do something internationally that they don't already do domestically.

 

Here's a perfect example of why it is so difficult to impose US rules on various countries:

 

Vanadium is HAZ MAT in the USA. Placarded, not allowed on passenger planes, etc. etc. It is frequently used in water treatment to neutralize arsenic in ground water as well as for machine tools. It is slightly radioactive in some forms.

 

BUT the small amount of Vanadium produced in the USA is very expensive and most of it is brought in from SE Asia/former Russian countries. Quite a few of these countries are free trade/no tariff countries and DO NOT have to comply with US rules for labeling, haz mat, container composition, etc. etc. This is all done courtesy of the US Commerce Dept.

 

So you could EASILY send in vanadium TO the US from anyplace in the world on a passenger plane. Will it travel within the USA on a plane??? NO Once it gets to the USA, it MUST be trucked, it MUST be placarded, it MUST not be spilled, even in your own trailer. And USA transportation companies have to deal with the ramifications of these free trade rules, even when the containers are NOT made for cross country truck shipment (been there, done that).

 

HOW in the world are you going to sort out all the different rules from differing government agencies, free trade/third party nation states and have USA conformity without shutting down commerce worldwide? You can't and you don't.

 

This example is just a small snippet of what freight companies (air, land and sea) deal with every day. Something shipped in could certainly be much more lethal than Vanadium but will it get into the USA??? Unless it is truly explosive or radiological/biological, probably. Do we have the people or the political willpower to sort through all the conflicting rules and regulations? NO and never will.