How do you feel about being seated w/children??

[canderson]

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

Sometimes, this does not even have to be about a current event, or controversial news topic. Maybe it is politics. Maybe it is discussing cruise ship incidents. Maybe safety issues which might panic a child. Maybe we are discussing what time at night we all sneak under the tree on Christmas eve to place our children's gifts, which will destroy their belief in Santa Claus.

[/QUOTE] That did not appear to be the type of issue being raised in the two posts in question.

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

If you can tell me that you honestly talk equally free, of identical content, and without restriction with other adults in the presence of your child, I would say you are the anomaly in today's world.[/QUOTE]
In some respects, undoubtedly I am an anomoly. But I think for all of the possible areas of conversation, we can probably manage to avoid the Santa Claus issue for a few days.

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

Since we no longer live in that strange, far off land (the one each and every one of us grew up in, and contrary to all modern beliefs, managed to become intelligent, well mannered, balanced, stable, successful adults), we must constrict our behavior and our conversation in the presence of any child lest we inadvertently overstep some unknown personal parental boundary, and risk finding ourselves the subject of a thread here, painted as the careless, monstrous, insensitive jerk at the table...because we mentioned the Iraq war, the curent trial-du-jour, the bad day at sea during the rogue wave last year, or the tsunami in Indonesia with the other adults at the table who wanted to discuss current topics as a form of societal bonding through common ground.[/QUOTE]
Amazing that we survived it, isn't it?;)

That said, those issues of politics, religion, etc., have been suggested elsewhere either in this thread or the one on "Tablemates" as often best relegated to another venue. I'm not clear how a tsunami figures into the equation ...

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

And no...I wouldn't simply launch into any subject without first getting to know the limits of my tablemates. But finding an adult's limits simply requires talking to them or asking them. [/QUOTE]

For that, we are appreciative. That wasn't at all clear in the prior post.

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

On my last cruise, my group of 4 were seated at dinner with two great, funny, and friendly women from Philadelphia. They decided to quickly broach the subject to the table that they were lesbian - something that caused no offense to any of us at the table. Had someone been offended, they certainly could have left. But with children present, even mentioning that subject would have been either taboo, or may have greatly offended a conservative parent who would rather their child not even hear such a word.[/QUOTE]

Just as likely, the parents (children in tow or not) would probably have been left wondering why they thought it necessary for the pair to announce their sexual preferences in the first place. Perhaps there was some contextual requirement for this, but having not been there...

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

And as to questionable assumptions, none would be more off-target than your own that adults who wish not to sit with children intend to carry on unrestricted with bigoted, foul-languaged babble about every offensive subject.
[/QUOTE]

I don't recall claiming that was my expectation. In fact, I had also noted in that post that there are any number of other quite understandable reasons for a person to prefer to sit only with other adults.

Let's try this on and see if it is in any way helpful...

Like you, I'm one who grew up in that time and land far, far away... OK, perhaps not so far as some could claim on these boards, but far enough. If I were to draw a contrast between what was considered appropriate dinner conversation in our very typical American household of the mid 60's and what passes for civil conversation in many places today, I do believe we'd have quite a substantial difference to work with. How good or bad this difference is felt to be is clearly a matter of debate.

However -- and as an example, I went to dinner last night at a local restaurant. A group of guys in their late 20's and early 30's came in and sat down a table on the other side of the room from us, and with no thought at all to the table next to them with 2 young children, and certainly not for any of the adults in the room, started up a conversation that would have had them thrown out of the same establishment in prior years. While less common in cruise ship dining rooms, most likely due to an average demographic of "further and further away", it does occur. One wonders whether this same group from last night's restaurant will "grow out" of this sort of thing, or just bring it along with them as they age.

Not all change is good.

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..

And to add another factor to sitting with children to your own mentions (not always well-behaved, not romantic mood setters, etc), may I add that children do not have an understanding of offensive or inappropriate behavior or conversation themselves, and can often be at the root of the offense of the table! Consider a child from a predominantly white suburbia who though completely well-behaved, has never seen a person of color, and asks an awkward or inappropriate question about it. Or consider a child not properly raised by their parents to be sensitive to people's problems blurting out a comment about an overweight person, or verbally pointing out a scar or disability. Maybe that child doesn't comment, but simply stares at what is unknown to them, not realizing that the stare comes off as an awkward judgement, making the person supremely uncomfortable. Of course, this could be dealt with my speaking to the parent about the behavior, which only brings up the awkward subject to everyone at the table, furthering the awkwardness and discomfort.[/QUOTE]

Fears of these sorts of things taking place would require a quarantine, not an absence from the dinner table. I have seen and I do understand what you're driving at above -- but this risk exists in [u]all[/u] venues.

[zackiedawg]

[quote name='canderson']That did not appear to be the type of issue being raised in the two posts in question.[/quote]

I only brought it up because the third quote you posted was mine...so I seemed to be getting lumped in under that assumption and wanted to clarify what MY version of adult conversation might be.

[quote]Amazing that we survived it, isn't it?;)

That said, those issues of politics, religion, etc., have been suggested elsewhere either in this thread or the one on "Tablemates" as often best relegated to another venue. I'm not clear how a tsunami figures into the equation ...[/quote]

While I agree that many of those subjects are best left unbroached, in an all-adult environment they may find their way to the surface if they are featured prominently in our current events. Sometimes they may even help to bond us further from strangers to friends. The tsunami was a tragic event...but it wouldn't be too hard for it to come up as a subject - someone mentions the last cruise they took which visited Thailand, and suddenly the tsunami incident looms large in everyone's mind. But would a child be shocked, saddened, or scared at the mention of a natural phenomenon which occurred in a tropical location with a tectonic fault nearby oft visited by cruise ships, taking hundreds of thousands of lives with little warning? Quite possibly.

For an example of politics not always being a derisive and devisive subject - on a past cruise, I was seated with a couple more than twice my age from Belfast Ireland. Watching the news in the United States makes it fairly clear that many Europeans are less than pleased with U.S. foreign policy, and often hold a contempt for our country, politics, and even us. However, in the conversation somehow coming up of the presidential elections (this cruise was in November 2004), we were able to have a lengthy, friendly, and open conversation about our various political views, opinions, desires, etc. And despite differing in many ways, we understood eachother and bonded. Last week, they took a cruise out of Ft. Lauderdale, and came a week early to spend 5 days as guests in my home. Sometimes the rational and mature discussion of those 'untouchable' subjects is better than avoiding them! It is up to us as rational adults to decide whether or not to bring it up.

[quote]For that, we are appreciative. That wasn't at all clear in the prior post.[/quote]

I thought so...wanted to clarify!

[quote]Just as likely, the parents (children in tow or not) would probably have been left wondering why they thought it necessary for the pair to announce their sexual preferences in the first place. Perhaps there was some contextual requirement for this, but having not been there...[/quote]

They brought it up because they had been ostracized and abandoned several times on cruises by people who were able to pick up on their sexualtity through their dress, behavior, or actions, and apparently disliked their persuasion. Several times, they found themselves at a table for 6 with nobody else there on day 3, because everyone moved tables. They had decided it was better to approach the subject openly, so people could make up their minds quickly, and they could get on with the enjoyment of the cruise without wondering if they'd have an empty table in a few days. It was especially hard when they felt they were honestly bonding with and getting along with their tablemates...maybe not making the extra effort to hook up with other friends during those crucial first few days when people bond...and then finding themselves abandoned by those people and maybe missing some opportunities to find friends earlier in the cruise. As it was, we bonded just fine, had a wonderful time with them, and we have still been e-mailing eachother since. In August, they will be coming down to Disney World, and I and a few friends will be having them stay in my vacation condo for 5 days with us (not that it matters, but my group is 2 heterosexual men and one heterosexual woman).

[quote]I don't recall claiming that was my expectation. In fact, I had also noted in that post that there are any number of other quite understandable reasons for a person to prefer to sit only with other adults.[/quote]

I meant that response to be not just to you, but to many of the respondents who seemed to form lesser opinions of anyone who replied that they'd prefer not to sit with children. I agree with you - there are many reasons to make such a decision. Some people probably DO want to raise ruckus and spout dirty jokes. But many of us don't!

[quote]If I were to draw a contrast between what was considered appropriate dinner conversation in our very typical American household of the mid 60's and what passes for civil conversation in many places today, I do believe we'd have quite a substantial difference to work with...as an example...A group of guys in their late 20's and early 30's...started up a conversation that would have had them thrown out of the same establishment in prior years.[/quote]

While certain things could be rationally discussed in the 60s at a table without raising offense or argument that may not be discussable today, other behaviors that were considered improper in a public place are no longer. My feeling is that this will only get worse, and much of it has to do with how we have altered the raising of children. Our efforts to be more politically correct have already backfired on us, and will continue to get worse. Problems in our PC world are not discussed and dealt with, they are avoided. Misbehavior in children or inflated expectations aren't reasonably denied or reprimanded, but allowed unchecked and granted for fear of disappointment. Your group of 20-30 somethings may well have grown up with that parent who never told their child to sit down and be quiet, never reprimanded bad behavior, gave too many time-outs and 'was that the best thing to do's, and gave in to all expectations, wants, and desires which bred a teenage brat, and later a misfit with no common sense or respect for anyone but themselves. It makes you wonder how far all of this will go before we decide that maybe the system which worked for hundreds of years and resulted in the greatest leaders, thinkers, prodigies, artists, and politicians in our time...might not have been so wrong to begin with!

[quote]Fears of these sorts of things taking place would require a quarantine, not an absence from the dinner table. I have seen and I do understand what you're driving at above -- but this risk exists in [u]all[/u] venues.[/QUOTE]

But you have to admit, if a person who has one of these sensitivities has to live with such behavior everywhere they go, and you ask them if they woulf prefer to sit with a child at dinner on their vacation, 'no' would be a fairly rational and understandable response. Again...not saying that person wouldn't be comfortable with a child present...certainly he may find himself pleasantly surprised at the good upbringing and behavior of the child and enjoy the cruise thoroughly. But without the benefit of hindsight, it would make things a touch easier if you didn't have a child at the table.

The risk does exist in all venues...but the risk of it occurring at dinner on a cruise ship is much reduced by not having a child at the table.

BTW - thanks for the spirited, mature discussion on this divisive controversial subject! I'd love to have dinner with you and blazerboy while discussing it...you could even bring your child...though I'd withhold the Santa statement. ;)

[Blazerboy]

(Never mind) What I was gong to complain about was not germaine to the discussion here. Not trying to be mysterious, just go with the flow and not start a "red hot" thread .:(

Think I'll post in a few "what's your favorite...." threads to remember why I'm chatting here.:)

[Lois R]

Andrew:) Hi, we chat here because we LOVE to cruise:D just remember that and you will be just fine;)

[Blazerboy]

Thanks Lois, really sweet of you in the midst of the frenzy and excitement of leaving to give a kind word. Have a wonderful, wonderful trip and birthday- we're a little jealous as we we just hit 70 days until the QE2 todayAndrew

[jsaadat]

1. I want to be one of your 4 y/0 so I can eat at Mortons and Ruth's Chris :)

2. Its really up to you where to sit. You can change your table when you get onboard. I personally would asked to be at a table with other young children if you really want to sit with other folks. I have cruised with my kids since they were 5 and 10 and will admit that I would not like to be seated with a table with 2,3, or 4 y/o. Im just being honest. If I was crusing my kids that age then I would probebly want a table with little kids.

J

[canderson]

[quote name='zackiedawg']
For an example of politics not always being a derisive and devisive subject - on a past cruise, I was seated with a couple more than twice my age from Belfast Ireland. Watching the news in the United States makes it fairly clear that many Europeans are less than pleased with U.S. foreign policy, and often hold a contempt for our country, politics, and even us.[/QUOTE]

Somewhat OT, but as one who travels a great deal, I can appreciate that more than you can imagine. One note: you would be amazed at the difference in the coverage and content of the foreign news and editorial material (sometimes hard to distinguish between them) of the [u]international[/u] broadcasts of CNN and the domestic version we're used to seeing.

While CNN tends to get beat up a bit in the U.S. for what some call left-leaning tendencies, even my more liberal friends are astounded by the much farther left slant of the international editions. I've had friends in Belgium, Germany and the UK point out things that they've heard on CNN that were quite different from what we hear here, and their impressions of us are in no small part effected by the spin of this coverage.

[quote name='zackiedawg']..snip..
They brought it up because they had been ostracized and abandoned several times on cruises by people who were able to pick up on their sexualtity through their dress, behavior, or actions, and apparently disliked their persuasion. Several times, they found themselves at a table for 6 with nobody else there on day 3, because everyone moved tables. They had decided it was better to approach the subject openly, so people could make up their minds quickly, and they could get on with the enjoyment of the cruise without wondering if they'd have an empty table in a few days. [/QUOTE]

As I understand the common practices of the day (including of several of our fellow posters here at CC), it is considered appropriate to introduce the other person as one's "partner". [u]Most[/u] adults would draw the correct conclusion immediately, and if it presented some sort of a problem for them, it could still be dealt with. Children that weren't already familiar with the realities are most unlikely to question that term as they'd more than likely be familiar with it in entirely different contexts.

That said, it's a shame these two have had such a series of bad experiences.

[canderson]

[quote name='jsaadat']1. I want to be one of your 4 y/0 so I can eat at Mortons and Ruth's Chris :)[/QUOTE]Hey!!! I've already inquired if they're interested in an adoption, so at least have the courtesy to wait until we see if they've turned me down first, OK?;)

[Luxana]

My husband and I are 55. We took our son, who is 21 now, on his first cruise (5 days to Mexico) when he was 9, and when he was 11, we took him and his 10-year old cousin on a 7-day cruise. They were well behaved and although they were the only kids at the table, everything went well.

Having said that, we are now going April 1st on a 10-day cruise to the southern Caribbean on the Summit, and for a cruise that long, I think we would prefer to be with adults only at dinner. We are signed up for second seating, and figure that all the people with kids will surely be signed up for the earlier dinner hour. :cool:

[dgg4]

I wouldn't assume all people with kids will be signed up for early seating. We will be cruising the Panama canal with our 2 boys in a week:p and we are booked for late seating. We live in the Mountain timezone so late seating for us would be when we would normally eat dinner at home.

[batchkk]

Not to sit with children, for many different reasons. In fact we prefer a table for two.

First, I am a Paramedic, so much of the time I am high stress. Helping and dealing with bad situations; be it patients or partners. My husband is a Police Officer and Motor Vehical Fatality/Crash Investigator. He deals daily with the public intimately, good bad, and ugly. We are exposed to children, as we have a handicap niece and a nephew under the age of ten, and spend alot of time with them. We are expecting our first baby early in the fall of 2005, so we truly want to be alone right now. This will be our last large vacation (11n cruise Summit 3/21) for some time. Eleven months ago we sailed on 10n Summit for our 5 year anniversary, again table for two. It's not that we don't like children or are anti-social, we just favor the company of eachother on special vacations. We travel/vacation on average of 8-10 times per year (de-stress from our jobs) most of that is with family or friends.

Having said all of that, I would hate to be seated with an obnoxious adult, more than the equivalent child. I have seen alot and truly do not tolerate foolishness from adults. Goofing around is fine, but poor behavior is not acceptable. Atleast you know there is a chance the child many grow out of it; the adult...........never!

To save ourselves and potential tablemates the hassle, we just order a table for two when booking. We do not wish to change or dance around subject matter for others. We wish to just speak freely together and giggle privately and as intimately as possible.

Our experiance from tables around ours has not been great. On our last cruise the table directly behind us (6 mature adults), snapped fingers, pointed and loudly said "hey you", they sent EVERY plate back AFTER EATING THE ENTIRE MEAL, and demanded most of the attention from our shared staff. The remaining 2 tables including ours (12 top, 2 top) were slighted from the 2nd night. If I were EVER place with people of that nature I think I would scream! I find behavior like that embarrasing and degrating. How shameful that grown adults were acting worse than ANY child I have ever seen.

Kerri

[Luxana]

dgg4, after a couple of days, you're going to be acclimated to ship time -- tours and other activities will begin in the ship time zone. But, of course, if you get hungry, you can always get a snack in the late afternoon, especially your kids. We have never been seated with children in the late seating; naturally, there could always be a first time. However, it is less likely in the late seating.:o

[Murphy]

We usually request a large table and until recently chose early seating and we have never been seated with any children. I have to agree with the poster who stated they would rather be seated with a well behaved child than an obnoxious adult.

[CajunLiner]

On our last cruise, our children, ages eight and nine, were only two of twelve children aboard the Galaxy. We were seated at at table for eight with two retired couples who explicitly but very politely stated that they preferred adult company at dinner. The dining room was not filled, so we were able to make special arrangements with the assistant maitre d'. The Fun Factory provided dinner, which the kids much preferred, so our children only went to dinner with us on the nights that we made them. We sat at a table for four when the kids were with us and rejoined our table companions on the other nights. As far as I know, everyone was pleased; I thought it worked out quite well.