Liverpool turn arounds back on the agenda

[David&Heather]

The sooner Liverpool get a turn around facility the better , I for one hate the journey to Southampton.

 

It's a horrible journey which is a fact that is lost on those who live within easy traveling distance of Southampton. Hopefully we will have the option to join a cruise at Liverpool soon.

Lets leave the finance issues for the politicians to resolve.

[DEEDIA]

As I drive for a living getting to Southampton is easy, the problem arises when you get into Southampton, the roads are dire on a Cruise day, Traffic light after Traffic light, Speed Cameras yes they slow you down (good thing) but the locals chop and change lanes whilst everyone else is too busy watching they do nothing wrong. Its one crazy rat race

[southsea bubble]

It's a horrible journey which is a fact that is lost on those who live within easy traveling distance of Southampton. Hopefully we will have the option to join a cruise at Liverpool soon.

Lets leave the finance issues for the politicians to resolve.

 

Can understand the frustration of passengers from the north traipsing down to the south

 

Just wonder what the thoughts are about bouncing down the Irish Sea and then possibly being hit again thro the Bay of Biscay for southbound cruises.

 

At least from south coast ports the Irish Sea is not a problem.

 

I have sailed down the Irish sea in a summer swell and it wasn't pleasant

[blackpool belle]

The Irish Sea is no worse than the Bay of Biscay.

[John Bull]

The Irish Sea is no worse than the Bay of Biscay.

 

 

................. or indeed the English Channel if it's in a bad mood.

 

BTW, a Cunard bigwig was on local TV in the south thisevening (don't know if it made it to your screens up north), he suggested that Cunard would be interested in running some trans-Atlantics from Liverpool if they invested in a turnaround terminal. One-ways incorporating flights to or from Manchester. The interview was short & he wasn't too specific about frequency.

 

Location-wise, trans-Atlantic is the most likely itinerary out of Liverpool, and wouldn't put noses out-of-joint in places like Newcastle or Rosythe.

 

JB :)

[shazzamk]

Just read this thread for the 1st time and am staggered at the bias against Liverpool. I really thought all this 'scalli scouser' bias had long since been confined to history. How wrong can you be ! :(

The sooner Liverpool get a turn around facility the better , I for one hate the journey to Southampton.

 

Lindy, I have just read this thread too, it did seem quite disheartening for us northerners, although I did see it was mainly about the money issue

 

 

Just to set the record straight -

• Liverpool are not looking for a handout, they fairly got the public funds on the basis of using the terminal for visiting ships.
  
• It was the UK government who set the conditions regarding the 'terminal operations' in relation to UK public funds not the EU fund element
  
• It is Peel who want to use the publically funded cruise terminal for ships and hence Liverpool City Council are going through the correct process to turn the decision around.
  
• As for the who owns the terminal its is Liverpool City Council, with Peel using it temporarily, until they build a new terminal as part of the redevelopment of the waterfront - hence the private sector investment in the future (this fits with the Governments new agenda on Enterprise Zones, which Liverpool and Wirral Waterfront are one of the zones)
  
• LCC have also said as part of the pay back of funds would cease if and when turnaround facilities stop from this terminal - I can see how this fits with the realisation of the Peel terminal development in the future - although I can't see this taking 15 years !!! not sure where they came up with the time scales personally
  

[insidecabin]

There are at least 4 cruises embarking from Liverpool in the next few weeks,

 

how many of you are going on the cruises that you allready have.

[David&Heather]

BTW, a Cunard bigwig was on local TV in the south thisevening (don't know if it made it to your screens up north), he suggested that Cunard would be interested in running some trans-Atlantics from Liverpool if they invested in a turnaround terminal. One-ways incorporating flights to or from Manchester. The interview was short & he wasn't too specific about frequency.

 

Location-wise, trans-Atlantic is the most likely itinerary out of Liverpool, and wouldn't put noses out-of-joint in places like Newcastle or Rosythe.

 

JB :)

 

Sounds ideal:) when can we book?

[nellydean]

And I could get to ride through the City of Liverpool with my '19 Championships' tee shirt and my United scarf trailing from the window.:D

 

Jim the Red.:cool:

 

Fair dos, but I'll welcome you with my 5 European Cups banner, OK?

[sidari]

There are at least 4 cruises embarking from Liverpool in the next few weeks,

 

how many of you are going on the cruises that you allready have.

 

Inside cabin .. I can only assume from the above that you mean Fred Olsen ? why should people book with them just because they are there? after all many people do not like small ships!! Cunard are clearly looking at the bigger picture even if they begin with just a handful of cruises from Liverpool.

Liverpool currently does not have a Terminal as some people appear to think but have a Pier where ships can moor.

 

Location-wise, trans-Atlantic is the most likely itinerary out of Liverpool, and wouldn't put noses out-of-joint in places like Newcastle or Rosythe.

 

JB ... why would Cunard going anywhere from Liverpool put noses out of joint in these two places? cannot recall any cunard cruise from either of the two places you mention.

[John Bull]

Location-wise, trans-Atlantic is the most likely itinerary out of Liverpool, and wouldn't put noses out-of-joint in places like Newcastle or Rosythe.

 

JB ... why would Cunard going anywhere from Liverpool put noses out of joint in these two places? cannot recall any cunard cruise from either of the two places you mention.

 

Uh-oh, you're confusing me again Sid. ;)

 

I said that Cunard sailing trans-Atlantic wouldn't put noses out of joint in those places. Cos they wouldn't be in line for that trade anyway.

 

Now if Liverpool's subsidy meant it got cruises that might otherwise have turned-around there (round-Britains, for example) they'd be pretty miffed to see their taxes being used to take work that they might otherwise be in line for.

 

JB :)

[insidecabin]

There are at least 4 cruises embarking from Liverpool in the next few weeks,

 

how many of you are going on the cruises that you allready have.

 

Inside cabin .. I can only assume from the above that you mean Fred Olsen ? why should people book with them just because they are there? after all many people do not like small ships!! Cunard are clearly looking at the bigger picture even if they begin with just a handful of cruises from Liverpool.

Liverpool currently does not have a Terminal as some people appear to think but have a Pier where ships can moor.

 

Location-wise, trans-Atlantic is the most likely itinerary out of Liverpool, and wouldn't put noses out-of-joint in places like Newcastle or Rosythe.

 

JB ... why would Cunard going anywhere from Liverpool put noses out of joint in these two places? cannot recall any cunard cruise from either of the two places you mention.

 

You(as in all the locals) can bang on about how important a local embarkation location is as much as you like but if you keep going somewhere else why should cruise lines bother taking the risk.

 

If local was TOP of the list of enough people, the cruises that are sailing would sell out at better prices than they can get sailing from Southampton, Dover etc. and that would get the eye of the other lines if they are more profitable.

 

Do some research it is not Fred Olsen.

 

Try and find out from a web page that promotes Liverpool as a cruise port I can't from a quickish look. You would think the current cruise embarkations would be on a main page somewhere to do with Liverpool docks if promoting turnaround is so important.

 

I can see a market for Cunard TA's but they may be aiming at Americans that have done London too many times(that will need TA flights somewhere local) or it an attempt to get Southampton port charges reduced.

[sidari]

Inside cabin ... If Local people as you call them had a choice of different ships just like those in Southampton then those Local people probably would cruise from Liverpool rather than drive to Southampton! if the other cruise line is Cruise and Maritime once again Small ships that only people who like Small ships will cruise on!

 

To keep harping on about cruises that are available from Liverpool which only have a small following does you no favours! as for cruisers going elsewhere instead of Liverpool what choice do they have when the Bigger ships are almost All currently in Southampton ?

 

JB ... there is always a chance that a cruise line may well run round UK trips from Liverpool, after all what is to stop them ? its the cruise lines ship not the ports.

[John Bull]

JB ... there is always a chance that a cruise line may well run round UK trips from Liverpool, after all what is to stop them ? its the cruise lines ship not the ports.

 

Quite right Sid.

The point I was making was that for a round-Britain, cruise ships can turnaround at any port which has the facility. :)

Including Newcastle & Rosythe.:)

 

And that the folk in those other ports are going to be miffed if Liverpool gets the business because their taxes which built the facility in Liverpool means Liverpool under-cuts them on port fees & takes the business. :(

 

JB :)

[insidecabin]

I would expect the demographics of cruiser to be fairly evenly distributed throughout the UK.

 

There should be a similar relative numbers local to liverpool as there are local to southern.

 

Or are you saying that of the UK cruising public those that like big ships are more concentrated in the north?

 

If you look at a population map like that below the main population center for southern ports is London 1.5-2hr from the 3 main ports

 

Liverpool probably has a similar population within that range and Loads more nearer.

 

The following is a map based on population

 

from

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1217571/A-new-world-The-amazing-map-based-population-shows-Britain-big-player.html

[sidari]

JB ... I may be wrong but most of the ships that do the Around the UK stops are usually in the Bigger size such as the Emerald,Crown or Grand Princess, Cunard with one of the Queens may do the odd couple as well.

 

So apart from stops at Rosythe (day calls) i cannot recall them going into Newcastle! so there is no reason why they need to get upset because Liverpool would not be taking any business from either of them seeing as non of them are Starting places for big cruise ships so there would be no undercutting of port fees.

 

With smaller ships ie 40k tons and under i can accept your arguement but it is only a very small part of it, and to expect Liverpool to repay All of the money spent on a pier is a non starter! after all you would not expect to get back £10k for a car that you had bought for £10k Ten years earlier would you?

 

Inside cabin ... I have no idea if people from the North of the UK prefer Big ships over Smaller ones, some people like both while others will only travel on Big or small ships. One thing for sure is that Liverpool sadly has been blinkered in the past in not having built many years ago a Turnaround facility when a decision was made to revamp the Albert dock area, but at that time the number of people taking cruises from the UK would have been much smaller and i can only guess that the people in charge at that time did not see the need for such a facility.

[John Bull]

 

So apart from stops at Rosythe (day calls) i cannot recall them going into Newcastle! so there is no reason why they need to get upset because Liverpool would not be taking any business from either of them seeing as non of them are Starting places for big cruise ships so there would be no undercutting of port fees.

 

Marco Polo, Azamara, Discovery, Fred, etc etc. There's a fair few tiddlers that go round the block, Sid.

And both Rosythe & Portsmouth put their hands in their own pocket just a few years ago to build their own turnaround facilities. Discovery now operates some cruises out of Portsmouth, so does Fred. So Portsmouth will feel grieved if their taxes are used to turnaround those cruises in Liverpool instead.

 

// and to expect Liverpool to repay All of the money spent on a pier is a non starter! after all you would not expect to get back £10k for a car that you had bought for £10k Ten years earlier would you?

 

The pier head was built in 2007/8 - that's not ten years ago, Sid.

And depreciation-wise, the pier head is more like a house than a car. It doesn't depreciate, it has no tyres to wear out, or an engine to start smoking, nor does concrete rust.

The pier-head increases in value along with inflation. Like a house, if it were built today it'd cost about 10% more to build

And remember, Liverpool didn't buy it - we all paid for it.

 

// One thing for sure is that Liverpool sadly has been blinkered in the past in not having built many years ago a Turnaround facility when a decision was made to revamp the Albert dock area, but at that time the number of people taking cruises from the UK would have been much smaller and i can only guess that the people in charge at that time did not see the need for such a facility.

 

Yes, Sid, the Liverpool powers-that-be were indeed blinkered. At the same time that Albert Dock was built, other ports were investing & risking their own money in an anticipated growth in cruising.

Yet even though that growth has now happened, even though it's still growing, even though Southampton Port has planned to risk its own money on a fifth terminal, Liverpool will still not reach deep into its pocket to pay the full cost of a ready-made pier-head.

 

regards to all scally scousers

 

JB :)

[sidari]

JB ... Of the tiddlers as you call them i do not see Liverpool taking those as Turnarounds! after all Fred has decided to pull out anyway, i think Liverpool would be after the bigger ships for turnarounds but i may be wrong.

 

One thing is for certain any turnaround facility would not be where the current pier is! unless they were to build it over the water next to the pier,car parking may be an issue though there are a few large multi stories a short walk away which could be used as secure parking with a lease.

[southsea bubble]

One question that has yet to be answered, who is going to pay for the reported £20m+ that is required to turn the very basic Pier head calling cruise facility into a proper turnround terminal to handle all the cruise ships that will be heading to Liverpool?

[John Bull]

JB ... Of the tiddlers as you call them i do not see Liverpool taking those as Turnarounds! after all Fred has decided to pull out anyway, i think Liverpool would be after the bigger ships for turnarounds but i may be wrong.

 

One thing is for certain any turnaround facility would not be where the current pier is! unless they were to build it over the water next to the pier,car parking may be an issue though there are a few large multi stories a short walk away which could be used as secure parking with a lease.

 

Saw one of Fred's tiddlers in Southampton today, Sid.

And if Liverpool get the nod, they'll turn around anything until the diary gets full.

And Frec knows there's business to be done with northern turnarounds - they only pulled out cos of the problems getting in & out of Langton Dock.

I don't know about space near the cruise pier, though I do recall acres of empty parking around the Echo building.

 

Southsea Bubble - I think you'll find Peel putting their hands in their pockets for the terminal. Lets face it, the could do so today to pay off the grants, but it's so much more profitable to start off with a free pier.

 

JB :)

[southsea bubble]

Saw one of Fred's tiddlers in Southampton today, Sid.

And if Liverpool get the nod, they'll turn around anything until the diary gets full.

And Frec knows there's business to be done with northern turnarounds - they only pulled out cos of the problems getting in & out of Langton Dock.

I don't know about space near the cruise pier, though I do recall acres of empty parking around the Echo building.

 

Southsea Bubble - I think you'll find Peel putting their hands in their pockets for the terminal. Lets face it, the could do so today to pay off the grants, but it's so much more profitable to start off with a free pier.

 

JB :)

 

Didn't I read somewhere that Liverpool have said that they dont expect to win more than 5% of the Uk turnround market which supposedly was the figure previously accommodated at Langton Dock before Olsen/ Thomson etc pulled out?

if correct that wont give much return for a possible £40m investment

Re parking I would have thought that space around the Echo Arena would have been required for events

Re Peel paying for the upgrade. Whilst Liverpool Council have said that there are plans in place to fund up to £23m for a terminal upgrade I have not seen anything from Peel to say they will provide part funding.

Peel are a very hard nosed company so you would question why they would stump up money to upgrade a facililty owned by Liverpool council when they have plans for their own as part of the grand Liverpool Waters scheme

Finally there was a piece on the local news today in which a MEP for the South East has challenged the assertion (made by NWest MEP's) that there were no conditions attached to the £8.5m EU Funding part of the £17m grant

This Soap opera has a few episodes to run yet!!!

[sidari]

SB ... it was the UK government that attached strings to the funding, the EU part did not have any as i recall! and lets face it what do mep`s know ? other than lining their own pockets.

 

Once the answer is known about Liverpool that is when and if the funding arrangements will be made.

[John Bull]

SB ... it was the UK government that attached strings to the funding, the EU part did not have any as i recall!

 

I do seem to recall seeing comments that the EU part of the funding wasn't subject to that condition, but that if the UK Gov drops it's condition, other ports may appeal that the european part of the funding will be an illegal subsidy under EU competition laws - and that's a real minefield !!

So the Bubble is probably right, there's still a fair mileage left in this soap.

 

Once the answer is known about Liverpool that is when and if the funding arrangements will be made.

 

in other words, Liverpool will ask for another £20m of my money? :D

 

 

Regards to all

JB :)

[southsea bubble]

Regards to all

JB :)

 

I think the comment on the European funding was initially reported in the Liverpool press following comments made by NW MEP's who favour liverpool obtaining turnround status.

The actual EC terms have not been made public as far as I know

Not sure if anyone ever audits the EC funding programmes properly anyway.

I once worked for a company in Greece who got shed loads of EC dosh and they never ever got anywhere near their projections for job creation or capital returns and the returns shown when EC Inspectors arrived for a cursory glance at the books were doctored duplicates!!!.

Going forward I think there is very little chance of Liverpool getting any grant aid assistance with the required terminal upgrade as the area does not now qualify for EC Objective One assistance and the NWDA Quango has been closed down.

However if Liverpool Council put up some/all of the money this could possibly be counted as a tax payers subsidy

[sidari]

in other words, Liverpool will ask for another £20m of my money?

 

JB ... you know you and all those people in the South can afford it .... :)

 

However if Liverpool Council put up some/all of the money this could possibly be counted as a tax payers subsidy

 

But only paid for by the Ratepayers of Merseyside!