Wonder in dry dock

[Host Mick]

I guess Disney doesn't care about all that money leaving the US economy. :mad:

 

Im sure that DCL solicited bids from US yards. Apparently, they're not competitive.

[kath00]

Im sure that DCL solicited bids from US yards. Apparently, they're not competitive.

 

Almost every single ship drydocks outside of the US (last notorious exception was Carnival Splendor after the engine fire and there was no choice there since the ship literally had no power to go further than SFO). It's for the same reasons they always have an international crew. Labor laws in the US are strict with minimum wage and overtime regulations and lots and lots of red tape. They simply don't want to pay the costs. This is also why all ships are foreign flagged (except the NCL Pride in HI)....

 

All about $$$$$.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Almost every single ship drydocks outside of the US (last notorious exception was Carnival Splendor after the engine fire and there was no choice there since the ship literally had no power to go further than SFO). It's for the same reasons they always have an international crew. Labor laws in the US are strict with minimum wage and overtime regulations and lots and lots of red tape. They simply don't want to pay the costs. This is also why all ships are foreign flagged (except the NCL Pride in HI)....

 

All about $$$$$.

 

 

 

Kath00 you are of course totally coorrect..........when you run a yard like Freeport with what amount to almost slave labor noyard,US or even european can compete........of course with the poor work that was done in the Magics last drydocking,I hope DCL has learned thier lessen!

 

In the Magics case part of picking Freeport had to due with distance has well.

 

There is alot more to it that ....most 3 rd world and some of the other conutries dont have to worry about any environmetal laws.........safety....and in some cases even child working laws.:mad:.........when the playfield is so unbalanced............well of course no US or most other countries can compete.

 

 

Your right its all about money!, some companies and the people running them don't care about anything but what makes them and the bottom line look good!

 

 

AKK

[PopFla]

The last drydocking at Freeport was a total mess up........work poorly done and poorly supervised' date=' poor workmanship.

 

There were many complaints from the passingers for a few cruises after she got out. [/quote']

 

We were on the second cruise after Wonder's Freeport drydocking in October 2009. That was when they enclosed the area above the Cove Cafe, creating the Outlook lounge area. We saw no evidence of poorly done work; to the contrary, the addition got nothing but highly complimentary comments from the folks on our cruise. Other work done at that time included lots of carpet replacement, interior painting and lots of other work; again, the ship looked great, and we heard no complaints.

 

US shipyards need to totally reinvent their existing way of doing business if they have any hope of attracting new shipbuilding and renovation contracts. Otherwise they will be outbid by foreign shipyards on every contract and will find themselves going the way of the dodo bird and the sternwheeler steamship.

[Tonka's Skipper]

We were on the second cruise after Wonder's Freeport drydocking in October 2009. That was when they enclosed the area above the Cove Cafe, creating the Outlook lounge area. We saw no evidence of poorly done work; to the contrary, the addition got nothing but highly complimentary comments from the folks on our cruise. Other work done at that time included lots of carpet replacement, interior painting and lots of other work; again, the ship looked great, and we heard no complaints.

 

US shipyards need to totally reinvent their existing way of doing business if they have any hope of attracting new shipbuilding and renovation contracts. Otherwise they will be outbid by foreign shipyards on every contract and will find themselves going the way of the dodo bird and the sternwheeler steamship.

 

 

1. I am talking about the Magic last year........please read my post correctly and the other posts at the time the Magic came out of the yard.

 

2. Please read the reasons I gave for why the foreign yards can underbid so easily..

 

3. Then please come up with true reasons why I am wrong....because just battering here and you and the other 2 making statments without backing them up will never prove your statments......without back up they are just nothing.

 

 

What are US yards doing wrong?.the labor is not really more expensive then European and they do better and more productive man hours of work.

 

US yards developed the modular (that is the correct name,not blocks) system of biulding back in WW2,.. they use it now.

 

Have you read about or visited any of the major or smaller US yards?...

 

Meyers does have a shed over drydocks,so does other US yards.......IE Norfork and I beleive San Deigo among others...

 

 

I repeat........if there was a fair playing field in Shipbiulding and other industries.if foreign countries didn't use extreme sudsidies and protectionism, not the mention laws protecting thier flags and how foreign flags are controled in thier cruise industry, then I'll be the 1st to agree........

 

PS. Just for your information there have been a number of sternwheelers built in the US in the last 10 or 20 years......granted for the cruise and toursit trade..but they were built!

 

NOW.until I read about some real facts and statements based in facts not just opinons. I will not be responding you and your 2 buddies....I was beat up in that other thread and I won't waste my time with you ........hmmm...........*gentleman*....... further.

 

AKK

 

In case your wondering why I know my statements are based in fact I have been in the Maritime industry and international operations for 36 years now!

[Host Mick]

1. I am talking about the Magic last year........please read my post correctly and the other posts at the time the Magic came out of the yard.

 

2. Please read the reasons I gave for why the foreign yards can underbid so easily..

 

3. Then please come up with true reasons why I am wrong....because just battering here and you and the other 2 making statments without backing them up will never prove your statments......without back up they are just nothing.

 

 

What are US yards doing wrong?.the labor is not really more expensive then European and they do better and more productive man hours of work.

 

US yards developed the modular (that is the correct name' date='not blocks) system of biulding back in WW2,.. they use it now.

 

Have you read about or visited any of the major or smaller US yards?...

 

Meyers does have a shed over drydocks,so does other US yards.......IE Norfork and I beleive San Deigo among others...

 

 

I repeat........if there was a fair playing field in Shipbiulding and other industries.if foreign countries didn't use extreme sudsidies and protectionism, not the mention laws protecting thier flags and how foreign flags are controled in thier cruise industry, then I'll be the 1st to agree........

 

PS. Just for your information there have been a number of sternwheelers built in the US in the last 10 or 20 years......granted for the cruise and toursit trade..but they were built!

 

NOW.until I read about some real facts and statements based in facts not just opinons. I will not be responding you and your 2 buddies....I was beat up in that other thread and I won't waste my time with you ........hmmm...........*gentleman*....... further.

 

AKK

 

In case your wondering why I know my statements are based in fact I have been in the Maritime industry and international operations for 36 years now![/quote']

 

So, are Canadian shipyards subsidized also?

[PopFla]

1. I am talking about the Magic last year........please read my post correctly and the other posts at the time the Magic came out of the yard.

 

I did read your previous post - it said absolutely nothing about Magic' date=' and this entire thread deals with the drydocking of [u']Wonder[/u] ; pardon me for not being a mindreader.

[divinity]

We were on Wonder for the second cruise after her last drydock in '09, the one where the new Outlook lounge was added above the Cove Cafe. Even with that extensive work, she was only out of service for two weeks. The ship looked great, with lots of fresh paint, carpeting, flat-screen TVs, and other small touches.

 

As for where she'll be drydocked this time, I thought I had read somewhere that it would be in Seattle. Anybody familiar with shipyards large enough to handle Wonder in Vancouver, Victoria and/or Seattle ?

 

I am sailing on the Disney Wonder from Vancouver to L.A. (repositioning cruise) on September 20, 2011.

[Tonka's Skipper]

So, are Canadian shipyards subsidized also?

 

 

Foreign Shipyards: Worker Repression & Corporate Subsidies

BC Ferries and the provincial Liberal government are actively promoting the purchase of new ships and the refitting of the existing fleet by foreign shipyards.

Exporting jobs and investment out of British Columbia makes no financial sense. It will hurt our economy, our shipyard industry and its workers.

But BC Ferries' wrong-headed approach also rewards foreign countries that are severely repressing their workers as well as paying dramatically lower wages coupled with poor working conditions.

At the same time, these countries are subsidizing their shipbuilding industries to create unfair competition for BC shipyards.

Four main areas control 90% of the world's shipbuilding: Japan, China, South Korea and the European Union.

South Korea, China, Germany and Finland are the major potential suppliers of ships to BC Ferries, which has repeatedly solicited bids for ferry construction from foreign countries

But South Korea and China have been repeatedly criticized by Amnesty International for the harassment, arrest and detention of trade unionists attempting to exercise basic labour and human rights.

Are countries that jail workers the sort of suppliers that BC Ferries should be doing business with?

Meanwhile, Germany, Finland, Spain and other European countries are subsidizing their shipyard industries to gain international business, as are South Korea and China.

The European Union not only allows members countries to subsidize shipyards by up to 6% of the total value of a ship, but also permits “research and development” funding to assist shipyards.

And both Germany, Finland and Korea provide state-guaranteed loans at preferential rates to shipbuilders or financial guarantees.

Detailed information below on the terrible situation facing workers in South Korea and China and their shipbuilding industries shows why BC Ferries should be building new ships and refitting its fleet in British Columbia , not foreign countries.

Other countries understand the benefits of promoting and supporting their own shipbuilding industries – what's wrong with the BC Liberal government and BC Ferries?

Worker Repression in Foreign Shipyards

China: Conditions for workers

From the Amnesty International 2003 Annual Report

“The dramatic rise in labour disputes continued. Among issues sparking protest were low wages, corrupt management, mass layoffs, dangerous working conditions and restrictive working practices in factories.

Many protests were met with excessive use of force by police, resulting in casualties. Protestors were detained and harassed, and some were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

Lawyers and journalists who defended protestors or publicized the protests were intimidated or arrested.

The revised [trade union] law still severely restricts workers right to freedom of association and expression, and independent trade unions remained illegal.”

Chinese workers averaged 2,287 hours worked per year, compared to 1,600 to 1,800 for Canadian workers, according to an International Labour Organization study.

Is it any surprise that China's leaders are confident that the country can overtake Asian shipbuilding rivals South Korea and Japan by 2015? Chinese shipbuilding output has more than doubled in recent years.

South Korea: Conditions for workers

From the Amnesty International 2003 Annual Report

“Harassment and arrests continued of trade unionists who organized strikes and demonstrations to protect their basic rights….. At least 170 trade unionists were arrested, including trade union leaders charged with calling an “illegal” strike action and “obstructing company business”.

South Korean workers averaged 2,447 hours worked per year, compared to 1,600 to 1,800 for Canadian workers, according to an International Labour Organization study.

With repressive rules and state subsidies, South Korea has become the world's leading shipbuilding nation – 43% of all ships on order are being built in South Korea.

 

NOW, case complete......enjoy your opinions on your own!

 

AKK

[kath00]

I am sailing on the Disney Wonder from Vancouver to L.A. (repositioning cruise) on September 20, 2011.

 

Have a great trip and please let us know what is new when you return home! We did the Coastal trip northbound (on the Sapphire Princess) and loved it!

 

Katherine

[traveldayz]

Very excited at doing our first Disney Cruise - even more so after reading this post, as our cruise starts on Sept 25 on the Wonder.

Our last trip to the USA (from Australia) was in 1999 .When we visited Disneyland, we were SO IMPRESSED especially with the high standards of cleanliness and organisation - looks like we are in for another treat!!!

[Host Mick]

Foreign Shipyards: Worker Repression & Corporate Subsidies

--snip--

NOW' date=' case complete......enjoy your opinions on your own!

 

AKK[/quote']

 

So apparently, Canadian shipyards aren't subsidised not do they have slave labor but they managed to underbid the US shipyards on the West Coast.

Perhaps the US yards can learn from them.

[Tonka's Skipper]

So apparently, Canadian shipyards aren't subsidised not do they have slave labor but they managed to underbid the US shipyards on the West Coast.

Perhaps the US yards can learn from them.

 

 

... <snip>

 

Please read the Guidelines linked to at the top of every page.

Discuss the topic not the person.

[Capt_BJ]

The last drydocking at Freeport was a total mess up........work poorly done and poorly supervised, poor workmanship.

 

Well, I didn't inspect the work so I can't comment - altho I AM experienced with inspecting shipyard work. I WAS master of ships in dry dock . . .

 

There were many complaints from the passingers for a few cruises after she got out.

 

One needs to remember that a ship goes to Dry Dock for underwater hull inspection and repair. Anything that happens inside the ship is incidental and normally outside the scope of the shipyard. It is done 90% by ship staff or outside contractors.

 

I would love to see DCL use US shipyards.:D....but I would be surprized if they go back to Freeport.:eek:

 

If DCL sticks to US shipyards expect prices to rise significantly

 

BTW didn't we start with discussion of a west coast ship? Where are the possible haul out facilities?

[Tonka's Skipper]

Well Said Captian!

 

To my knowledge their are 2 ports with a drydock or graving dock to handle the tonnage of the Wonder,SF and SD, but SD has a bridge that maybe a issue with air draft.

 

I was also not there, so I am basing my opinion on what was commented on by Disney yard reps and the passingers on the boards. There were reports of shipyard jobs not be completed to spec, including the new septic system and the underwater damage repairs which occurred at Castaway key., again no great details.

 

I agree the interior cosmetic stuff isn't my point or debate.

 

US and Canadian yards are more expensive, my point is they cannot compete with the extreme subsidzed foreign yards and the protectionist laws they use.

 

I cannot product figiures , but the difference in the US/ Canadian yard and a subsidzed foreign yard, regarding a drydocking in the overall operating costs of the large cruise liner today is not much at all. But the point is that thses yards have a rough time competing with a uneven playing field.

 

With all due respect, much of the work and how it is done, between a military vessel and a commercial vessel in shipyard are apples and oranges

 

We did start with a west coast veseel, but some totally one side and wrong information was being given out.

 

AKK

 

8 years at sea as a deck officer/Master including 2 years in shipyard peroids for Sabine. 28 years as a Marine surveyor, ship inspector and investigator.

[truck1]

[quote name='DisneyKidsDad'][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]I guess Disney doesn't care about all that money leaving the US economy. :mad:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

The first time they went to Freeport with the Wonder, had to do with getting work visas for some of the contractors. Either the visas coud not be obtained, or not obtained in time for the scheduled dd, so it got moved both time wise and location to Freeport.


[quote=Tonka's Skipper;30157298]The last drydocking at Freeport was a total mess up........work poorly done and poorly supervised, poor workmanship.

There were many complaints from the passingers for a few cruises after she got out.

I would love to see DCL use US shipyards.:D....but I would be surprized if they go back to Freeport.:eek:


AKK[/quote]

I was 1 of them. We were on the first Magic trip out of DD in Oct.
There was a lot that was not done properly both on DCLs side, and the yard side. Just a few examples, the newly laid carpets were never cut and installed properly, the hull paint did not match, either the blue/black or the red underpaint. There was ALOT of things that were probably never looked at when the DCL rep went thru checking that work was completed.

On the contractor side, a lot of the contractors did more damage then what they fixed. There were cigerratte burns in the carpet in areas they sholdnt have been in, there was chips and damage done to hallways again where they were supposed to be, etc.

I stopped counting the number of guests that complained about the smell of sewer gas in and around most of the ship at different times. (Just things you over hear when you talk to gs about your wedding.)