how to adjust the daily service charge with HAL?

[jtl513]

I think it fair to say that human nature makes one work a little harder if one can earn something extra by doing so.

 

If the cruise line builds the service charge into the price of the cruise and it is not treated as something extra for the staff, then they no longer have any incentive to provide exceptional service.

The incentive is still there to earn a cash tip in addition to the basic service charge. Also, there is the incentive to earn non-monetary rewards, such as extra time off in ports, by earning praise on the end-of-cruise comment cards.

[Globaliser]

I think it fair to say that human nature makes one work a little harder if one can earn something extra by doing so.

 

...

 

I believe if it is ever built into the price of the cruise, the exceptional service provided by the HAL staff will start to disappear.

There are many service industry locations where tips are neither given (sometimes they're prohibited) nor expected, and yet service is consistently good or even exemplary. So this is not a necessary consequence of building it into the price of the cruise. Other factors include the quality of management, individual satisfaction with their actual job (as opposed to the possibility of making extra money) and service culture - in addition to the other incentives mentioned by jtl513.

[peaches from georgia]

There are many service industry locations where tips are neither given (sometimes they're prohibited) nor expected, and yet service is consistently good or even exemplary. So this is not a necessary consequence of building it into the price of the cruise. Other factors include the quality of management, individual satisfaction with their actual job (as opposed to the possibility of making extra money) and service culture - in addition to the other incentives mentioned by jtl513.

You are so right. The cruise lines that include tips are most often the ones with truly exemplary and superb service- Seabourn, Regent, Silversea are perfect examples. It's not the price of their cruises, but the quality and expectations of management aboard their ships that assure the quality of the experience to the pax.

[cruisemom42]

For me, the most valid post here was the one about AIDA Cruise Line indicating the poor service which resulted when the service charge was built in as part of the cruise price.

 

I think it fair to say that human nature makes one work a little harder if one can earn something extra by doing so.

 

If the cruise line builds the service charge into the price of the cruise and it is not treated as something extra for the staff, then they no longer have any incentive to provide exceptional service.

 

There was endless discussion about this when the change was made a few years ago. I remember may posters insisting that it was NOT a service charge, but still a tip.

 

It was, and still is, a service charge and the control of it is still in the hands of the passengers...and not built into the cost of the cruise. I hope it stays that way.

 

I believe if it is ever built into the price of the cruise, the exceptional service provided by the HAL staff will start to disappear.

 

IMO

 

After much travel, I've come to the conclusion that this is an American-centric view. We are raised to think this; it is our culture. But in other cultures it is just as deeply ingrained that good service is an end in itself, not a means to a greater financial reward. Look at Japan, for example. Tipping is simply not accepted -- if you try to leave a tip it's sort of viewed as a social faux-pas and an embarrassment. Yet I have rarely experienced such good service as there. I think this is true in other Eastern cultures as well, just haven't experienced it first-hand.

 

Another example: In Europe, being a waiter is considered a profession, and waiters make a living wage and do not depend on tips. Yet they pride themselves on doing a good job. I think one of the differences is that in America we view wait staff as semi-professionals, and often people who are wait staff are only filling the position part time (students) or until they can find something better. In recent years, Americans, with our tipping culture, have come to Europe in droves and have somewhat upset the balance of things there -- in many tourist areas waiters now are less attentive and feel "entitled" to a tip. So it seems to me in this case that -- far from improving service -- tipping has actually led to a decline in service.

 

Finally, having taking two voyages in the last year on the Aegean Odyssey, a ship where gratuities are included in the fare, I can say that service was just as good if not better than on HAL cruises I've been on. Interestingly, I took a cruise on the Westerdam and one on Aegean Odyssey about a month apart last year -- very similar itineraries, length of cruise, etc. When you add everything up that is NOT included on a line like HAL and compare with the more inclusive Voyages to Antiquity line, the pricing was actually slightly less expensive on the latter.

[cruisemom42]

Not sure it's necessarily fair for everyone to be jumping on the bandwagon to make the thread creator feel bad. I will be adjusting our 11.50/per person/per day charge for our Christmas cruise because they will also be charging us for our 2 year old daughter. She is not participating in any children's activities, etc. so we feel it is not necessary to pay the full $80 for her. I'm sure that statement will bring on a host of responses about how cheap we are but I do believe that there are times when it is warranted to reduce the tip. That being said, we are also the type of people who give separate tips to exceptional members of the staff. To each his own!

 

I don't see that anyone else addressed this (if they did, sorry, I missed it), but the children's counselors/activities staff are not included in the service charge anyway. So whether or not your child participates should not impact your decision to adjust the charge.

 

When my son was younger, I always handed out tips for the children's program separately. I don't think that has changed.....??

 

(And I never considered adjusting the charge downward, I might add. :cool:)

[DFD1]

Cruisemom....You're right. My view is American-centric.....by default.

 

This is an interesting thread and the differing views and experiences are valuable.

 

Thanks

[jkrislc]

I think it's important to note that while exceptional service can be the norm in countries where tipping is not customary, those service workers are making a living wage. That's not true on most major cruiselines. However, I also agree with other the the employees have other incentives than the service charge including having their contract renewed.

 

I also think many cruisers have formed an illusory correlation between the creation of the service charge and a general decline in service. However, I think this is largely the result of cruiselines cutting staff to save costs. Thus, the staff is overworked and can't deliver the same level of service as in the past. I also believe that with so many ships, the staff does have the same level of experience as in the past when initially hired.

[Globaliser]

I think it's important to note that while exceptional service can be the norm in countries where tipping is not customary, those service workers are making a living wage. That's not true on most major cruiselines.

It may be true on major cruise lines if you add together the (usually derisory) basic wage and the service charge distribution. If that amounts to a decent wage, then management and culture ought to be capable of delivering the same service standards even if there is no further direct financial incentive.

 

But what is a "living wage" for these purposes would be very difficult for us to assess, as many of these crew have few immediate needs at "first world" prices, and most of them send a large proportion of their pay to their home countries, where that money goes a lot further than it would at "first world" prices.

[Expo67]

I would hope we can all agree that HAL does still have better service than most other lines. With the change over to auto tips I can say that i have seen the level of satisfaction of service drop off through the years. Even HAL's level of service has dropped off from the days which some of us remember when tipping or service charges were words not even used in the HAL cruise brochure. Times have changed but in my mind not for the better with the addition of the auto tipping and service charge. We will still cruise but honestly i can see a day when service levels may drop to the point where it may be necessary to vacation in other ways.

[YOW]

I also think many cruisers have formed an illusory correlation between the creation of the service charge and a general decline in service. However, I think this is largely the result of cruiselines cutting staff to save costs. Thus, the staff is overworked and can't deliver the same level of service as in the past.

 

Quite possibly.

 

I like your big-picture view, not just citing one statistic or incident but looking at what's going on around it... Malcolm Gladwell style. When multiple factors are changed in unison, we can't always determine what causes what.

[cruz chic]

I would hope we can all agree that HAL does still have better service than most other lines.

Sorry but I can't agree with this. Some of the best service I've ever rec'd has been on Princess. Many times they blow HAL out of the water.

[Boytjie]

I would hope we can all agree that HAL does still have better service than most other lines. With the change over to auto tips I can say that i have seen the level of satisfaction of service drop off through the years. Even HAL's level of service has dropped off from the days which some of us remember when tipping or service charges were words not even used in the HAL cruise brochure. Times have changed but in my mind not for the better with the addition of the auto tipping and service charge. We will still cruise but honestly i can see a day when service levels may drop to the point where it may be necessary to vacation in other ways.

 

Was the service charge the cause for a decline in service or was it because there are less crew members having to work harder?

[Expo67]

Was the service charge the cause for a decline in service or was it because there are less crew members having to work harder?

 

Probably a combination as i think both have had some effect on the level of service. I would also agree that Princess has good service and would be a close second on my list. ;)

[jkrislc]

Quite possibly.

 

I like your big-picture view, not just citing one statistic or incident but looking at what's going on around it... Malcolm Gladwell style. When multiple factors are changed in unison, we can't always determine what causes what.

 

Thanks.

 

As for the PP stating that HAL has better service than the others, I can't agree with this after only one HAL cruise as I found the service to be comparable to all the other lines I've been on. The one exception would the friendliness of the staff on HAL which I did find comparable to Disney.

[nana51]

I for one would love it if restaurants, cruiselines, etc. paid a real wage to their employees and then if they went above and beyond you could tip. Why this isn't done I don't know. An example is the burger chain "in and out". They pay their employees at least $11.00 an hour and health benefits. Yet, their prices are very cheap and their business is booming. The reason is a quality product. Who doesn't love their burgers? Go to McDonald's with poor underpaid and overworked employees. The service and food is very ho hum. If a waiter was paid a decent wage, yes, the meal would cost more, but I wouldn't feel obligated to tip someone who is just doing their job. As it stands now they rely on my tip. Even if the service is just o.k. I always tip 15 to 20%. Add it in to my bill then if the service is really good I will tip above that.

[Opinions]

But what is a "living wage" for these purposes would be very difficult for us to assess, as many of these crew have few immediate needs at "first world" prices, and most of them send a large proportion of their pay to their home countries, where that money goes a lot further than it would at "first world" prices.

 

Shouldn't wages be based on the work you do not on how few immediate needs you need at first world prices...I don't think because one sends a large proportion of their wages home their "lving wage" should be less than someone who doesn't...Those of us who are paying the fares for the most part are making first world wages.

[Globaliser]

Shouldn't wages be based on the work you do not on how few immediate needs you need at first world prices.

If you're looking at how much incentive someone's earnings give them to do a good job, you can't ignore the question of how much that money is worth to them.

[Typhoon1]

I think it is time to bury this thread.

[bepsf]

Was the service charge the cause for a decline in service or was it because there are less crew members having to work harder?

 

It's definitely the latter, not the former...

...fewer waitstaff mean longer meals with huge lags between courses - and fewer stewards cleaning more rooms mean things just aren't always up to snuff.

[Typhoon1]

Any predictions on how many pages this thread will go?

[Wakepatrol]

Any predictions on how many pages this thread will go?

 

We now have another 28 pages of how the money is actually divided up. How much the pastry chef gets etc. I suggest smelling salts.

[jkrislc]

We now have another 28 pages of how the money is actually divided up. How much the pastry chef gets etc. I suggest smelling salts.

 

If he's the one that gave my son the turtle sitting on a lilly pad made out of almond paste during the galley tour, then he deserve his cut. :)

[misscolina]

I am now going to pour oil onto the fire, does cleaning the cabin/bathroom and making the beds not form part of the cruise-fare? and if you have one meal in the restaurant per day, why tip for 3 meals per day? In the UK we have a mimimum wages for all workers, this system should be applied to cruise ship staff and not rely on passengers, you may pay less in America for cruises but here in the UK we pay top dollar and then on top have to pay servicecharge/tips, and deal with currency fluctuations as well!!!

[nana51]

I am now going to pour oil onto the fire, does cleaning the cabin/bathroom and making the beds not form part of the cruise-fare? and if you have one meal in the restaurant per day, why tip for 3 meals per day? In the UK we have a mimimum wages for all workers, this system should be applied to cruise ship staff and not rely on passengers, you may pay less in America for cruises but here in the UK we pay top dollar and then on top have to pay servicecharge/tips, and deal with currency fluctuations as well!!!

 

I agree with you 100%. I think that delivering and taking your order are part of the job. A tip should be for above and beyond. I hate supplementing salaries. I will do so though until they start paying decent wages. I also hate seeing that damn tip jar at the donut shop.

 

Remember in the old days when you went to get gas and the guy checked your oil, washed your windshield and you didn't pay extra? They still do that in Manitoba Canada. There was no extra charge. Those are the ones who should be tipped, you went for gas and got a bunch of other stuff too. Just my two cents.

[HatRez]

This is how I view the charge:

 

If I was staying in a regular resort or hotel I would be leaving $5 each morning as a tip for the housekeeping staff. For the quality and variety of the breakfast (about $15 in a restaurant) that's another $3 tip. For the lunch (probably $15 or $20 in a restaurant) that's another $3 or $4. And for dinner (I'm guessing $40) that would be a $7 tip... just for one person. That's almost $20 in tipping per person for the meals and room each day you would be paying on an a la carte holiday somewhere else.

 

The service you receive on the ship is a thousand times better than you would get from a regular hotel or restaurant so the service charge to me is something I pay for happily. I wouldn't be able to look my wonderful cabin stewards in the face if I for some reason removed that charge.