Jones Act

[yst347]

Puerto Rico is exempt from the PVSA as long as no US flagged carrier is offering scheduled service between the island and the US mainland. It seems to me the cruise industry could lobby for this exemption to be expanded to the entire nation. Just allowing this would resolve 90% plus of the nonsense this law causes.

[firefly333]

I wonder what would happen if you got on at the first port. Vanc. then you are starting from a different country?

With all that other stuff being said, I found it very odd that while getting off in Vanc. BC (our cruise ended in Vanc.) I noticed a room and a sign for those doing the B2B, so I bet it is a matter of taking the risk. But why would Carnival have that room set up, if those on our cruise were not allowed to get back on?

 

I am getting the idea that there is just no way around this.

 

Other than I can agree to pay the possible $300 fine, that Carnival might be charged. .. which I still might.

 

I sent a email just now with my PVPs suggestion to agree to pay the $300 fine if it is charged. .. thats all I can come up with .. any other suggestions?

[yst347]

I am getting the idea that there is just no way around this.

 

Other than I can agree to pay the possible $300 fine, that Carnival might be charged. .. which I still might.

 

I have never heard of Carnival offering this as an option. I have read several threads on here where this situation occurred and when Carnival realized what happened they forced the passenger to pick one cruise of the other. I suspect this will eventually happen to you. :(

[BeccaBecca1713]

I am getting the idea that there is just no way around this.

 

Other than I can agree to pay the possible $300 fine, that Carnival might be charged. .. which I still might.

 

I sent a email just now with my PVPs suggestion to agree to pay the $300 fine if it is charged. .. thats all I can come up with .. any other suggestions?

 

 

From other threads on this subject I recall someone saying even if Carnival accepted the fine, you still would not be allowed back on the ship.

[xbatt8]

OK, I just read the linked PDF on the PVSA. I saw nothing on there about continuation or any assumption thereof. It simply says that they cannot transport you from one US city to another. I don't see how yours meets that criteria. You are being transported from one US city to the same city, then you are being transported from a foreign city to a US city.

 

I guess I violated the PVSA also... I sailed from San Diego to San Diego, and then a few months later went from LA to LA. So I guess I went from San Diego to LA.....

 

There has to be some distinction on what constitutes a continuation of the same "trip".

 

Bob

[yst347]

OK, I just read the linked PDF on the PVSA. I saw nothing on there about continuation or any assumption thereof. It simply says that they cannot transport you from one US city to another. I don't see how yours meets that criteria. You are being transported from one US city to the same city, then you are being transported from a foreign city to a US city.

 

I guess I violated the PVSA also... I sailed from San Diego to San Diego, and then a few months later went from LA to LA. So I guess I went from San Diego to LA.....

 

There has to be some distinction on what constitutes a continuation of the same "trip".

 

Bob

 

Itinerary one begins in Seattle and ends in Vancouver. No problem with this itinerary because it begins in the USA and ends in Canada.

 

Itinerary two begins in Vancouver and ends in Honolulu. No problem with this itinerary because it begins in Canada and ends in the USA.

 

The problem is with combining them. The law draws no distinction about how the cruise is sold. The law is only interested in where you begin your journey on the ship and where you end the journey. Doing the two itineraries means you board in Seattle and leave in Honolulu. Foreign carriers cannot offer this itinerary without a stop in what the law defines as a distant foreign port.

 

It's understandable why the law was drawn this way. It's intention was to protect the now largely defunct domestic steam ship trade from foreign competition. Foreign carriers could easily circumvent the law by touching near ports like Vancouver and Ensenada by booking the legs separately.

[debster11]

It isn't the Jones Act.

It is the PVSA..... Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886.

 

PVSA of 1886. That's the problem right there. It may have been needed 126 years ago, why is it needed now? It's time for a change.

[crzndeb]

Oh good grief Fire...chill. I was joking around. It is pretty obvious to most of us that you post on CC a lot...sorry you took offense. But it has been a very hot topic, especially during the summers. But thanks, for ripping me a new one.

 

And BTW, I did give you info about the rules.

[yst347]

PVSA of 1886. That's the problem right there. It may have been needed 126 years ago, why is it needed now? It's time for a change.

 

Americans clamored for protection from foreign competition in the 19th century and they do so today. Nothing has changed.

 

The problem the cruise industry faces in trying to change this law is that the number of Americans who are affected while large on this forum, is actually a very very small portion of the population. Politicians don't like messing with issues like this because they can easily be labeled by their opponents as being in the pocket of foreign interests or uncaring about the fate of the American worker. There is very little upside no matter how outdated this law may be.

[BeccaBecca1713]

Oh good grief Fire...chill. I was joking around. It is pretty obvious to most of us that you post on CC a lot...sorry you took offense. But it has been a very hot topic, especially during the summers. But thanks, for ripping me a new one.

 

And BTW, I did give you info about the rules.

 

 

LOL!:D Deb, I remember your thread on this subject. It provided me with a wealth on info that helped me understand the PVSA. For that I thank you. :cool:

[crzndeb]

Thank you Becca....I really am a nice person..LOL!

 

My friends had this happen to them in 2010 and they had already booked air and hotels...luckily Carnival reimbursed them $300 to change their air, since they allowed them to book in the first place.

[bshow]

E-lawyers are so hilarious!

[firefly333]

Itinerary one begins in Seattle and ends in Vancouver. No problem with this itinerary because it begins in the USA and ends in Canada.

 

Itinerary two begins in Vancouver and ends in Honolulu. No problem with this itinerary because it begins in Canada and ends in the USA.

 

The problem is with combining them. The law draws no distinction about how the cruise is sold. The law is only interested in where you begin your journey on the ship and where you end the journey. Doing the two itineraries means you board in Seattle and leave in Honolulu. Foreign carriers cannot offer this itinerary without a stop in what the law defines as a distant foreign port.

 

It's understandable why the law was drawn this way. It's intention was to protect the now largely defunct domestic steam ship trade from foreign competition. Foreign carriers could easily circumvent the law by touching near ports like Vancouver and Ensenada by booking the legs separately.

 

Not that it makes a big difference, but cruise #2 that begins in Canada, ends in Calif. (still another US city) .. but it does take me back to the mainland. 15 days.

 

So there is no way to book this is the bottom line. Oh well I hoped someone had some information that would help. I was looking for help if there is a way to get around this, and apparantly there isnt.

[firefly333]

Oh good grief Fire...chill. I was joking around. It is pretty obvious to most of us that you post on CC a lot...sorry you took offense. But it has been a very hot topic, especially during the summers. But thanks, for ripping me a new one.

 

And BTW, I did give you info about the rules.

 

and you dont see telling me to use search and now telling me to chill is ripping me .. you were so sweet.

 

I was looking to see if anyone had a way around this .. not just quoting me the rules, which I had seen .. just hoping there was a way.

 

We all have posts where we come off as rude. Sorry this still seems a rude reply to me, but I've been there too so will just assume you meant it different than it sounded to me.

 

I think I am more shocked that you have't read the numerous threads on this already. Is the search feature down?

[sail7seas]

PVSA of 1886. That's the problem right there. It may have been needed 126 years ago, why is it needed now? It's time for a change.

 

 

The Act also applies to airlines. It is what prevent, for example, British Air from carrying people from London to NYC to Denver to NYC to London. They cannot carry passengers domestically. They can only transport passengers from foreign airport to U.S. domestic airport and must head back to foreign destination upon departure.

 

[yst347]

The Act also applies to airlines. It is what prevent, for example, British Air from carrying people from London to NYC to Denver to NYC to London. They cannot carry passengers domestically. They can only transport passengers from foreign airport to U.S. domestic airport and must head back to foreign destination upon departure.

 

 

International air travel is governed by the Chicago Conventions often referred to as Freedoms of the Air, not the PVSA or the Jones act.

[fishtaco]

The Act also applies to airlines. It is what prevent, for example, British Air from carrying people from London to NYC to Denver to NYC to London. They cannot carry passengers domestically. They can only transport passengers from foreign airport to U.S. domestic airport and must head back to foreign destination upon departure.

 

 

This makes the most sense to me.

 

On a cruise you are boarding a foreign vessel at its "arrival" port in USA

On disembarkation you are leaving the vessel on its "arrival" port in USA

 

Den

[scperk]

I have never heard of Carnival offering this as an option. I have read several threads on here where this situation occurred and when Carnival realized what happened they forced the passenger to pick one cruise of the other. I suspect this will eventually happen to you. :(

This is exactly what happened to us when we booked the Hawaii/Vancouver and Vancouver/Seattle last May ..We had to cancel our Alaskan cruise...Dennis

[scperk]

From other threads on this subject I recall someone saying even if Carnival accepted the fine, you still would not be allowed back on the ship.

We also heard this , That we could be denied re-boarding in Vancouver even if we paid the fine..Dennis

[sail7seas]

Cruise ships which knowingly permit people to board and violage PVSA can be assessed harsh penalties. They will not simply let you agree to pay the fine. The fine is to the cruise line, not the guest, though they certainly will recover it from the guest in the case of violation.

 

A medical evacuation or even death while aboard is not automatically granted a waiver for violation. It must be applied for and is not always granted.

 

[geckog]

I know! Just stay on the ship until it goes back to Seattle! :)

 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

[fishtaco]

This is exactly what happened to us when we booked the Hawaii/Vancouver and Vancouver/Seattle last May ..We had to cancel our Alaskan cruise...Dennis

 

 

This is because you have been out of the country(Vancouver) so would have had to do Customs and immigration at your first port of entry back into USA not second.

 

Could you imagine if it was allowed, getting all the b2b cruisers luggage off the ship at first port for customs and getting it all back on again with all the security checks for the next leg.

 

Den

[firefly333]

Well, its looking like I fly twice as I dont want to give up either cruise. I wasnt even looking for another Carnival cruise to be honest, but both of these came up, Alaska came up and then followed right after by the one to Hawaii and maybe thats how they were meant to be booked.

 

It is what it is.

 

The reason I posted it on here instead of just reading older threads. I come to CC because its almost like chatting with friends who cruise a lot who you can discuss a problem with. I wanted some live feedback, and thanks for that.

 

For something like this I need to chat with CC friends, not just read threads. I have been convinced there is no way around this. . thanks so I dont butt my head against the wall. Some fights you can't win. I'll just have to do both cruises as booked.

[prattmom]

truly a bummer, Fire :(

[maggieworkman]

I'm not sure about the schedule for the Alaska or Hawaii trips as I have never researched those. But is there more than one ship sailing from the port? Is it like in some of the Florida ports where some ships sail on Saturday and some sail on Sunday? If so, could you give off the ship, stay the night in the port city at a hotel and then get on the other ship the next day? That way you wouldn't have to fly twice.

 

I read the big thread last year about this and I seem to remember that as long as you stay the night at the port city, you wouldn't be violating the act.

 

Maggie